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Carlow Town poor planning

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  • 12-01-2016 7:03pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭


    Beware bit of a rant coming up.
    Have to say the layout of the town is badly thought out and to me the spatial plan for Carlow graigue is a lot of wishful thinking with sites on the river and imaginary footpaths and bridges and nothing in terms of specifics. If I was a developer I wouldent want to go near sites at the castle end of town as theres no footfall because of the fairgreen.
    I think the local council has a lot to answer for, check out the article in village magazine.



    The councils own planning page is crap for looking at planning applications and drawings

    To me (a relative blow in) the town suffers because there is:
    • No identifyable town centre.Landmarks are hidden
    • The retail is so spread out due to the fairgreen that the centre of town and the other end of town is suffering.
    • The view of the Castle is blocked.The office development blocking the view of the castle from the river a disgrace.
    • “Cultural Quarter “ is hidden and the whole place is really downtrodden looking and un attractive.
    • Delta sensory gardens built out in an industrial estate???? WTF
    • Too many surface car parks
    • The fairgreen drags people away from the traditional core of the town along tullow street/Dublin street and the rest of town is suffering as a result.
    • The centre of town is unattractive with a lot of traffic and no public spaces.
    • No more big stores(dunes etc. at the retail park end of town) – the castle end of town at the other end of tullow street should be where focu
    • The beautiful rivers in Carlow are ignored in the town centre… why don’t they CPO the ****e buildings on kennedy street and create an enclosed park/space on the river up the castle.. a few compulsory purchase orders and some foresight?
    • Cant think of many places in the town where I can sit outside a café and enjoy a nice view of anything really – wouldent really attract tourists.
    Suggestions:
    Everyone start kicking up a stink.
    Tax breaks and living over the shop scheme etc.
    Get rid of the car park in front of the dinn ri and do something much nicer and provide underground car parking elsewhere.
    Try Get one of the colleges to develop a part of a campus down at the castle end of tullow street breath some life into the town centre.
    Bike rental scheme anyone..Carlow Bikes??
    Develop the barrow way similar for tourists similar to the green way in mayo.
    Cant think of any more at the minute. Thoughts??


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    Carlow Town Team in 2013 suggested a "Live over the Shops" scheme to rejuvenated Dublin & Tullow St. (there are some incidences of this but they're established families like Lamberts or flats that're on the rental market anyway; I.e. No new accommodation).

    Dinn Ri Car Park; in my day there used be a "Swimming Pool" there; then the pool was moved over to where Tree of Liberty is.

    Carlow Town Team launch had inputs from the S.U. in the IT regarding having a town centre presence; again nothing happened; can't see the IT itself doing anything given when Tyndall Institute is built in 2017 they'll be taking over the V.S./C.I.F.E. & have P.P. gone in for a Sports Campus on the Kilkenny Rd.

    Car Park; (paid) multi-storey (3) car-park on grounds of Carlow S.C.

    Develop the Barrow Track? WI & the various councils & Leader Programmes etc. are behind a proposed Barrow Blueway. (Reserving my opinion on same; seems to be a disconnection between different parts of the county on it)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 817 ✭✭✭iano.p


    Some great points there. The planners all need to be sacked. I think carlow will never get the big footfall of people coming to the town. We have some great places in carlow but they aren't on any maps or sign posted. The barrow, the Carlow way, walk along the burrin. Loads of walking roots that b&bs pubs restaurants could all benifit from. It's a shame our great town is dying a slow death.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Planning in Carlow has been terrible. The focus shifted from the town centre and to out of town retail parks. Very hard to come back from them as its so hard to get business and customers back into a town centre once the damage has been done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭lotdpd


    Couldn't agree more and delighted I'm not the only one who has these points.... its the type of town that just doesn't have a plan in place for the future (long term plan)

    And they are looking to extent the boundary to cover all off graiguecullen taking in as far out on the Killeshin road as just past the cattle mart. Seems to me thats only trying to get more voters into the area and changing the boundary of a county in doing so. Pity they didn't stop and develop what we have before extending ....

    Again thats for the points and well said....


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭madmaggie


    I agree with OP as regards everything being spread out. Go to Kilkenny, park in Market Yard or Market Cross, walk out into High Street, and there you are in the city centre. I know Carlow will never have the tourist market like Kilkenny, but there is no real sense of a town centre. I hate to run down my own county, but unfortunately it is true.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭Morf


    lotdpd wrote: »
    And they are looking to extent the boundary to cover all off graiguecullen taking in as far out on the Killeshin road as just past the cattle mart. Seems to me thats only trying to get more voters into the area and changing the boundary of a county in doing so. Pity they didn't stop and develop what we have before extending ....

    I'd say it makes a lot more sense for services for outside the triangle to be looked after by an authority based in an urban area 200 metres or so away rather than Port Laoise.

    Does Laois/Offaly really apply to someone <100 metres over the border who most likely avails far more of services and infrastructure in Carlow/Kilkenny?

    It may be a gerrymandering exercise but I see quite a few merits it to it beyond that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Morf wrote: »
    I'd say it makes a lot more sense for services for outside the triangle to be looked after by an authority based in an urban area 200 metres or so away rather than Port Laoise.

    Does Laois/Offaly really apply to someone <100 metres over the border who most likely avails far more of services and infrastructure in Carlow/Kilkenny?

    It may be a gerrymandering exercise but I see quite a few merits it to it beyond that.

    I think the more major planning mistakes were on the Carlow side I'm afraid. The lack of focus on the town centre when the Fairgreen came about, various retail parks in Hanover etc all damaged the town centre immensely.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    madmaggie wrote: »
    I agree with OP as regards everything being spread out. Go to Kilkenny, park in Market Yard or Market Cross, walk out into High Street, and there you are in the city centre. I know Carlow will never have the tourist market like Kilkenny, but there is no real sense of a town centre. I hate to run down my own county, but unfortunately it is true.

    I would say 20/30 years ago Tullow st and High st were comparable in strength. High st has prospered and is now one of the best retail streets in Ireland. Unfortunately Tullow st has bombed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,283 ✭✭✭✭fits


    We need a new set of councillors. Hopefully new planner will help turn things around too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭Snaffles2014


    Possible solution to the lack of town centre ..... move the Post Office (i.e. up onto Tullow street somewhere) to get more footfall in that new area and then knock the old one and with the Dinn Ri car park and old Post Office site make that the town centre, ensuing you link it all to Tullow street (i.e. another entrance into Shaws from the back being one connection/link)

    Different idea ....

    Possible solution to traffic and footfall ... need to plan it of course but a one way system on Tullow street and on the Potato market (to the entrance of Dinn Ri) so the traffic moves faster onto roundabout and down Kennedy avenue and onto Barack street and back onto the one way system again (maybe two way up to the entrance of the shopping centre.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭newg300


    Great points by the OP.

    The "castle" area is an absolute disgrace. Fair enough, you can't do much with one wall, but it still had a bit of character. Imagine a green area sweeping from it to the river, running to the bridge? It would be lovely in summer especially. Instead we have this: https://goo.gl/maps/RRToAVwmbWP2

    The Burrin is also a wasted opportunity. The units at Lemongrass along Kennedy Ave should have been built on the Penney's side of the river (I know it's not as simple as that, but you get the point), bringing the river more into the street. Now the view form the bridge there is the bins and rubbish at the back of those units.

    On Kennedy Ave, the Haddens centre, social welfare offices down as far as the post office is nothing but a series of ugly buildings. I'd go along with the OP in saying ideally they would go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭Snaffles2014


    I have seen a poster this morning that there is a meeting in Seven Oaks 20th Jan 2016 at 8.00 PM regarding the development of business in Carlow Town. Some councillor and other speakers will be there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 817 ✭✭✭iano.p


    I have seen a poster this morning that there is a meeting in Seven Oaks 20th Jan 2016 at 8.00 PM regarding the development of business in Carlow Town. Some councillor and other speakers will be there.

    Seen that but is one of the speakers not the manger of a shopping centre in town so he will be bias. And the councillors all voted for most of the planning in town. Maybe I am wrong


  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Jed and Dave


    Interesting views and thanks for giving me the background.
    Ive seen it happen where one Local Authority builds something on the border of another local authority purely to get some more rates in I think that retail park where dunnes is is an example of laois co co looking to benefit from rates to the detriment of Carlow Town but it is good that both councils are now doing a joint spatial plan – it’s a pity it is piss poor for the centre of town.
    Nokia whats the Carlow Town team is it purely an organisation for business owners or can citizens have their say? Was anything even done on the live over the shops scheme? Barrow Blue way sounds interesting – could be away to get people into the town and also all the other town s along the river I know that it would have to be sensitive to local wildlife, etc.
    Iano agree 1000%
    Road High yeah the damage has been done somewhat but I don’t think any more car dependant retail parks should be built.
    Kilkenny s laid out very well for a town the same size– bustling shopping centres at either end of the the traditional main streets john street and high street, very little retail parks.. a nice public space in front of its castle and a park… pretty riverfront… a proper cultural quarter with the theatre- st. canices brewery corner and smithwicks tour.
    New G I agree 100 percent I looked at that view from the bridge and imagine how attractive it would be if you could see the castle and park in front of it – Kilkenny are building in front of the dunnes car park and developing the river front and creating a linear park along the nore – that’s foresight.
    Caught the tail end of the meeting last night I missed the first speaker –
    • Carlow suffering from recession higher costs and lower margins, people are shopping in Kildare village Dublin and online shopping because of brands. Carlow should position itself for upturn in economy.
    • Penneys redevelopment to start within 3 months complete within 2 years. Widely welcomed but one speaker highlighted the need for more “brands” and upmarket marks and spencers type stores in the town.
    • Buisness people in the town complaining about the high rates and increased over heads saying that lack of free street parking and over vigorous parking wardens is affecting trade.
    • Point made that we need another TD from Carlow in the dail to make the case for the county.
    That’s enough waffle for now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 817 ✭✭✭iano.p


    Would have loved to go to that meeting. But flat out in work. I think if carlow had two very good tds it would help but can't see that happening kilkenny is much bigger population. With an election soon now is the time for people on the doors to be speaking up but where too start.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    There is probably more chance of Carlow having 0 td's as there is of having two.

    I hate to say it but sf are looking strong for a seat :-(


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    Interesting views and thanks for giving me the background.
    Ive seen it happen where one Local Authority builds something on the border of another local authority purely to get some more rates in I think that retail park where dunnes is is an example of laois co co looking to benefit from rates to the detriment of Carlow Town but it is good that both councils are now doing a joint spatial plan – it’s a pity it is piss poor for the centre of town.
    Nokia whats the Carlow Town team is it purely an organisation for business owners or can citizens have their say? Was anything even done on the live over the shops scheme? Barrow Blue way sounds interesting – could be away to get people into the town and also all the other town s along the river I know that it would have to be sensitive to local wildlife, etc.
    Iano agree 1000%
    Road High yeah the damage has been done somewhat but I don’t think any more car dependant retail parks should be built.
    Kilkenny s laid out very well for a town the same size– bustling shopping centres at either end of the the traditional main streets john street and high street, very little retail parks.. a nice public space in front of its castle and a park… pretty riverfront… a proper cultural quarter with the theatre- st. canices brewery corner and smithwicks tour.
    New G I agree 100 percent I looked at that view from the bridge and imagine how attractive it would be if you could see the castle and park in front of it – Kilkenny are building in front of the dunnes car park and developing the river front and creating a linear park along the nore – that’s foresight.
    Caught the tail end of the meeting last night I missed the first speaker –
    • Carlow suffering from recession higher costs and lower margins, people are shopping in Kildare village Dublin and online shopping because of brands. Carlow should position itself for upturn in economy.
    • Penneys redevelopment to start within 3 months complete within 2 years. Widely welcomed but one speaker highlighted the need for more “brands” and upmarket marks and spencers type stores in the town.
    • Buisness people in the town complaining about the high rates and increased over heads saying that lack of free street parking and over vigorous parking wardens is affecting trade.
    • Point made that we need another TD from Carlow in the dail to make the case for the county.
    That’s enough waffle for now.

    Carlow Town Team was quite an aspirational idea to have all the stakeholders working together to boost business incl. voluntary & public bodies & third level establishments (IT Carlow esp. enthusiastic) as well as Eigse/CAF & Visual (often wonder why the former doesn't take over management of latter?).

    Included local businesses of all sizes from those on Tullow & Dublin St. to the Fairgreen & Carlow Shopping Centre.

    Still active, on social media anyway (https://www.facebook.com/carlowtownteam/?fref=ts) and were mentioned in the Sunday Times Business section few weeks ago (see their FB for the article).

    Carlow Chamber of Commerce & LEO Carlow involved also; I often wonder does the latter not just complement but overlap the other & are they not better becoming one body.....many of the same heads involved in both)?

    Citizens can have their say yes; again please refer to the social media page I've linked to; I attended its launch in the town hall (there was free stuff going!) but not sure if a contribution an ordinary citizen makes will make a difference in town where it's "Hail Fellow, Well Met", very cliquey regarding Chamber of Commerce/LEO/Council etc.

    Barrow Blueway got short shrift at first meeting of the year of the County Council; doubt it'll go ahead with such attitudes; I'm not a fan of proposal to be honest.

    OPW/WI can't, won't maintain what's there as it is so what chance is there of them covering the 90km stretch from Levitstown/Monasterevin in Nth. Kildare to Graig/St.Mullins in Kilkenny/Sth.Carlow?

    But there's money to be made from it; if there wasn't Carlow Tourism wouldn't be all all over it like flies to s***e!

    I'll leave the others you've mentioned to answer your points to them.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 817 ✭✭✭iano.p


    Last night had Pat Deering knocking at the door. Had a good chat with him. He said within the next two weeks there will be a big jobs boost for the town. He wouldn't comment on any of the planning issues. But said he will look into it and will be back to me before the election. Only time will tell if he does


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    iano.p wrote: »
    Last night had Pat Deering knocking at the door. Had a good chat with him. He said within the next two weeks there will be a big jobs boost for the town. He wouldn't comment on any of the planning issues. But said he will look into it and will be back to me before the election. Only time will tell if he does

    I hope he's right. Carlow is crying out for a jobs announcement and even though I'm a strong advocate of places doing things for themselves, I do think Carlow needs some special attention. It's in a great location with great infrastructure, it shouldn't be too hard a sell...


  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Jed and Dave


    ive too much time on my hands!
    in the absence of any plan- ive done my own

    bear in mind im not a planner- but neither was the guy running the planning dept in Carlow planning dept so I reckon im more qualified than him :-D

    2ufzzg8.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,283 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Some good ideas. I would love to see the college moving into town centre also. Much better idea than moving out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Jed and Dave


    good article about how good planning can make or break a town
    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unattractive-rural-towns-are-ultimately-doomed-1.2361880
    some of the main points:
    • Attracting people and investment to town centres requires a focus on the provision of a high-quality public realm: everything from lighting and street furniture to traffic calming and the townscape.
    • Towns that have invested in improving their urban environments – Kilkenny, Abbeyleix, Clonakilty and Killorglin, to name a few – have done so out of a conviction that a high-quality public realm is central to attracting investment, employment and tourism to their locations.
    • The regeneration of rural towns and villages may well require a revival of tax incentives for developments of the right type and in the right locations. The current Historic Towns Initiative has provided a modicum of tax relief in three “heritage towns”: Youghal, Westport and Listowel. Could this not be expanded?
    • If we get it wrong, we will be living with the consequences for decades and beyond. And the costs will be significant – economically, socially and environmentally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭madmaggie


    Do they have a town planner in Carlow? News to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Those towns bar Kk are way smaller than Carlow, which even amplifies the problems in Carlow as they're harder to sort.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    It's Ireland, what did you expect? :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Jed and Dave


    madmaggie wrote: »
    Do they have a town planner in Carlow? News to me.

    google:
    Hogan and Planning Mess in Carlow village magazine

    They had a "director of planning" - im not sure if that person is a planner- perhaps im wrong...if I am I stand corrected
    I cant post the article but if you read it its pretty damning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    Have to agree 100% with some of the comments here Carlow town has been bedevilled by poor planning, lack of vision from substandard councillors, general absence of civic pride etc. contributors have correctly identified the out of town developments as do-nutting the town centre as developer-led schemes have drained the footfall from the Tullow St area, Kilkenny has on the other hand made developments work around their vision and they have a thriving core, they have retained the character of the traditional street scape building upon certain features such as the castle. CW doesn't know what it wants - the Shamrock plaza a case in point of totally incongruous development. Also agree an opportunity was squandered to develop the castle area by the Barrow, with some vision an attraction could have been out in place. Starting point has to be appoint a town architect as in Westport, Clonakilty etc ensure all medium to long term development is coherent, and a proper vision is developed. Small short term steps would be to ensure businesses or those renting property out maintain them, some premises are eyesores. businesses have to learn to help themselves too and make the place attractive to visit / stroll through PS paint & a few window boxes would help to take the dreary look off the place and are tax deductible. the longer term aim should be to get the Ritz site development moving - there were big plans to do something with that large area but a few 'hold outs' scuppered that. Something like the market yard in High sT would help revitalise Tullow st. The council need to move from a development at all costs approach to one that is sympathetic to a wider framework ..


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    I had this e-mail waiting for me this morning. A few people here might like to have a say in the survey


    Hi

    You may be aware the Love Carlow campaign has been working tirelessly for the past few months in Carlow Town. The campaign has seen some great improvements in the public realm and streetscape in this short space of time, but there is still considerable work to be done over both the short and long term.

    Love Carlow has been made possible through contributions from various individuals, businesses and stakeholders in many ways to date. Now we turn to you, as shoppers, workers, residents, communities who are in and around Carlow, please share your views and thoughts with us to assist in developing a more comprehensive long term plan for the town and county.

    The survey will take but a few minutes, however we home that the results and outcomes will last for a lifetime, assisting us in improving and changing Carlow for now and future generations. To access the survey, please click on the following link https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/lovecarlow . We would be delighted if you could share this link through your place of employment and with your contacts, to ensure everyone has an opportunity to contribute to the regeneration of Carlow.

    Thank you for your time and contribution.

    Regards

    Brian

    Brian O’Farrell
    CEO
    County Carlow Chamber


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    I had this e-mail waiting for me this morning. A few people here might like to have a say in the survey


    Hi

    You may be aware the Love Carlow campaign has been working tirelessly for the past few months in Carlow Town. The campaign has seen some great improvements in the public realm and streetscape in this short space of time, but there is still considerable work to be done over both the short and long term.

    Love Carlow has been made possible through contributions from various individuals, businesses and stakeholders in many ways to date. Now we turn to you, as shoppers, workers, residents, communities who are in and around Carlow, please share your views and thoughts with us to assist in developing a more comprehensive long term plan for the town and county.

    The survey will take but a few minutes, however we home that the results and outcomes will last for a lifetime, assisting us in improving and changing Carlow for now and future generations. To access the survey, please click on the following link https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/lovecarlow . We would be delighted if you could share this link through your place of employment and with your contacts, to ensure everyone has an opportunity to contribute to the regeneration of Carlow.

    Thank you for your time and contribution.

    Regards

    Brian

    Brian O’Farrell
    CEO
    County Carlow Chamber

    3 Main Assets Carlow Town has to offer customers & visitors?

    Roads out of it to Kilkenny, Waterford, Portlaoise, Wexford, Dublin etc.

    Train out of it to Kilkenny, Waterford, Dublin etc.

    That's 2 anyway! :)

    On a more serious note be interested to see, a bit like Census 2016 or the Leaving Cert etc., what people do put down for this & the other multiple answer questions.

    We're all anonymous here & on it so time to or get off the plank now & let's be having ye/us.

    There will be some parts of any SWOT Analysis that overlap mind; what's seen as good/bad might also be seen as bad/good etc.

    So let's go........


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    Filled it out fwiw.

    Struggled to think of 3 good things. No such problem with whats bad.....dog crap everywhere.....parking......all the boarded up buildings.....overgrown trees/bushes....the castle.


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