GM Bolt specs announced.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101775_2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-specs-released-battery-pack-motor-power-and-more

Key specs,

60 Kwh battery.

200 HP !!

0-60 under 7 seconds.

Why oh why will we not get it in Ireland, unbelievable.

Only possible way to get it is up the North through Chevrolet whenever it becomes available.

I e-mailed Opel Ireland in the hopes it might be rebranded as Opel and they told me it would not be rebranded and it will also not be sold in Ireland because there are no Chevy dealers any more.

Unfortunately, there is no mention of DC charging above 50 Kw which is strange for a 60 Kwh liquid cooled battery.

This is going to kill the Leaf in the USA.

I would have it in the morning if I could, would be a blast to drive with 200 HP.

Importing a new one from the U.K would be a headache and they sting you with VAT after paying U.K VAT which I though was against E.U rules but anyway.

Such a shame, the first really good long range EV and it's not going to be sold in Ireland. No date on the U.K probably 2 years minimum.

Rafal

Deleted User wrote: »

Importing a new one from the U.K would be a headache and they sting you with VAT after paying U.K VAT which I though was against E.U rules but anyway.

If you used a car import company that would be prepared to buy an unregistered and untaxed Bolt for you in UK you would only pay the Irish taxes when it arrived here.

Certainly worth looking into. Or any dealer could import it ?

Would certainly be a really fun car and ultra cheap to run.

Shame there are no Chevy dealers in Ireland any more, even if there were they probably wouldn't have anything to do with an EV.

NIMAN

When I bought a new car in NI in 2010, I paid the price ex VAT there, and then paid VAT in Ireland on importation.

Surely you can't pay VAT twice? If the car is being exported out of NI, VAT wouldn't be payable.

Nice looking motor btw, much more 'normal' car shape than the LEaf.

stesaurus

You don't pat VAT twice. If it's less thank 5k on it then it's considered new so you buy it ex-vat and then pay the Irish vat +vrt if there is any.
There's a simple enough procedure to follow.

NIMAN

Do I remember <6000km and/or <6 motnhs old?

stesaurus

NIMAN wrote: »

Do I remember <6000km and/or <6 motnhs old?

Yeah think that's it. 5k in miles I believe it used to be

At least the U.K version would tell you the consumption in Miles per Kwh, and not the ultra ridiculous kwh/100 Kms the rest of us have to endure !

If you get 3.5 miles per Kwh and have a 60 Kwh battery then you simply multiply 3.5 x 60 = 210 miles which should be perfectly achievable.

My average is 18 Kwh/100 kms, now how ridiculous is that ?

DrPhilG

It's a nice looking car, certainly gives me an alternative to the 60kw leaf when the time comes.

I'd happily buy a second hand in England again. And I'm right on the Derry border so servicing in the North wouldn't be no problem.

Considering these ev's don't require actual maintenance , it would be cool if the technician actually came to your work or home to run the diagnostic, and maybe bring a pollen filter along !

Yeah it's not a bad looking car and has a bit more interior room than the Leaf but boot space I think is a bit smaller which is a shame. Though the Leaf boot is an awkward shape.

nokia69

Are they really selling this in the UK, I thought they were only making it in left hand drive

http://www.wired.com/2016/01/gm-electric-car-chevy-bolt-mary-barra/

good article in Wired about it

If the Bolt has a 60kWh battery, then Tesla will have to at least match that with the Model 3

nokia69

nokia69 wrote: »

Are they really selling this in the UK, I thought they were only making it in left hand drive

http://www.wired.com/2016/01/gm-electric-car-chevy-bolt-mary-barra/

good article in Wired about it

If the Bolt has a 60kWh battery, then Tesla will have to at least match that with the Model 3

No it's not being sold in the U.K , I was suggesting that if it does that someone from Ireland would be able to buy one up the North.

One reason the GM Bolt was announced, I believe is solely to give the finger to Tesla , to say, Ha bet you to it.

nokia69

Deleted User wrote: »

No it's not being sold in the U.K , I was suggesting that if it does that someone from Ireland would be able to buy one up the North.

One reason the GM Bolt was announced, I believe is solely to give the finger to Tesla , to say, Ha bet you to it.

Well yeah they do want to beat them to market, but I don't see it hurting Tesla

This is what Musk wants, he wants every car to be electric, at this point anyone who knows about the Bolt also knows about Tesla, I think in the end most people who want an EV want a Tesla

I expect the Model 3 to beat the Bolt in every way

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

This is going to kill the Leaf in the USA.

I would have it in the morning if I could, would be a blast to drive with 200 HP.

Haha, glad to see Mad_Lad that you now agree with my thoughts on the Bolt and recognise what an incredibly exciting car it looks like!

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah it's not a bad looking car and has a bit more interior room than the Leaf but boot space I think is a bit smaller which is a shame. Though the Leaf boot is an awkward shape.

While it's boot space is smaller then the Leaf, seemingly with the back seats down, it has far greater boot space then the Leaf. So a bit of a trade off there.

Leaf might be a bit better if carrying 5 people and luggage, but Bolt better for a more configurable options. 5 adults with limited luggage more comfortable then the leaf or 2/3 adults plus more luggage space with rear seat(s) down.

nokia69 wrote: »

Well yeah they do want to beat them to market, but I don't see it hurting Tesla

.......

I expect the Model 3 to beat the Bolt in every way

I think the Tesla 3 and the Bolt will eventually end up targeting very different markets [1] I believe the Tesla 3 will be targeting the BMW 3 class of car. The BMW 3 starts at 36k and goes up to about 50k and I expect the Tesla 3 will be similarly priced.

The Bolt seems more like the Nissan Leaf type of car, so by the time the Tesla 3 hits (probably 2018), the Bolt will likely cost about 25 to 30k [2] Probably a good 10k price difference between them once both are available and targeting different markets.

[1] At the moment their is a lot of corss shopping across car categories by EV enthusiasts as there are so few EV models available and some people just want an EV, so will often look at prices and categories that wouldn't normally interest them. As the EV market matures and more models arrive, there will be less of this sort of cross shopping and more of people just looking within the category that interests them.

[2] The Bolt is priced at $37k without tax incentives, but I think that is just GM profiteering for the next year or so while they face no competition. I expect the price will drop significantly once faced by more competition.

I'm very excited by the Bolt, it has impressive specs, affordable price and most excitingly it seems to have brought the era of affordable 200mile+ EV's much sooner then expected.

Even if the Bolt doesn't come to Ireland, it is going to force an upheveal by car manufactures. As you say it will kill the current Leaf in the US dead, so hopefully that will force Nissan to bring it's Leaf 2.0 plans forward and bring it's own 200 mile EV sooner then planned and hopefully to Ireland too.

I also expect it will force other companies like VW, BMW and Ford to up their game and bring their own 200mile EV's sooner too.

So good news for the EV world all round.

KCross

bk wrote: »

[2] The Bolt is priced at $37k without tax incentives, but I think that is just GM profiteering for the next year or so while they face no competition. I expect the price will drop significantly once faced by more competition.


Even if the Bolt doesn't come to Ireland, it is going to force an upheveal by car manufactures. As you say it will kill the current Leaf in the US dead, so hopefully that will force Nissan to bring it's Leaf 2.0 plans forward and bring it's own 200 mile EV sooner then planned and hopefully to Ireland too.

I also expect it will force other companies like VW, BMW and Ford to up their game and bring their own 200mile EV's sooner too.

So good news for the EV world all round.

I think you have some wishful thinking on several fronts there.

Nissan, or any other manufacturer, are very unlikely to bring their release plans forward. This isnt a piece of computer software that they can decide to release early and then quickly fix when issues arise. I'd bet they have relatively fixed project plans that cannot be pulled in by any great degree. Its like you are saying that they have the car ready but are holding it off and now they will release it because the Bolt is out.... its not reality. If they were to pull it in by 6 months it would be alot.

On the price... again I wouldnt expect any manufacturer to radically reduce their prices as it would immediately hit the resale value for all their existing customers.... nothing like high depreciation to p*ss off your current customers to make them go elsewhere... so I doubt you will see large price cuts after the initial release and depreciation is already a major worry for would-be EV buyers so drastic price cuts are not in anyones favour.

From a technological point of view, no one can touch Tesla however the Model 3 I doubt will have the same level of tech and if it has it will make it cost ridiculous money. I have a feeling it will have some automation as an option and if it does have Auto pilot it will drive the cost up considerably.

The Bolt is more of a normal car with a good bit of tech all the same and there is no word yet if it has any form of automation, even basic auto cruise would be cool.

There is no mention that the Bolt will charge at more than 50 Kw and I find this amazing for a 60 kwh battery. You can bet the Tesla will be able to charge over 50 Kw.

Either way there won't be a Tesla or Chevy dealer in Ireland any time soon.

bk

bk wrote: »

Haha, glad to see Mad_Lad that you now agree with my thoughts on the Bolt and recognise what an incredibly exciting car it looks like!

While it's boot space is smaller then the Leaf, seemingly with the back seats down, it has far greater boot space then the Leaf. So a bit of a trade off there.

Leaf might be a bit better if carrying 5 people and luggage, but Bolt better for a more configurable options. 5 adults with limited luggage more comfortable then the leaf or 2/3 adults plus more luggage space with rear seat(s) down.

I think the Tesla 3 and the Bolt will eventually end up targeting very different markets [1] I believe the Tesla 3 will be targeting the BMW 3 class of car. The BMW 3 starts at 36k and goes up to about 50k and I expect the Tesla 3 will be similarly priced.

The Bolt seems more like the Nissan Leaf type of car, so by the time the Tesla 3 hits (probably 2018), the Bolt will likely cost about 25 to 30k [2] Probably a good 10k price difference between them once both are available and targeting different markets.

[1] At the moment their is a lot of corss shopping across car categories by EV enthusiasts as there are so few EV models available and some people just want an EV, so will often look at prices and categories that wouldn't normally interest them. As the EV market matures and more models arrive, there will be less of this sort of cross shopping and more of people just looking within the category that interests them.

[2] The Bolt is priced at $37k without tax incentives, but I think that is just GM profiteering for the next year or so while they face no competition. I expect the price will drop significantly once faced by more competition.

I'm very excited by the Bolt, it has impressive specs, affordable price and most excitingly it seems to have brought the era of affordable 200mile+ EV's much sooner then expected.

Even if the Bolt doesn't come to Ireland, it is going to force an upheveal by car manufactures. As you say it will kill the current Leaf in the US dead, so hopefully that will force Nissan to bring it's Leaf 2.0 plans forward and bring it's own 200 mile EV sooner then planned and hopefully to Ireland too.

I also expect it will force other companies like VW, BMW and Ford to up their game and bring their own 200mile EV's sooner too.

So good news for the EV world all round.

If it did come to Ireland I wouldn't be surprised if it was deemed too powerful for Irish drivers and power turned sown to 100 hp for a more acceptable 0-60 of 11 seconds LOL.

But yeah after seeing the specs no doubt the leaf will be in trouble. 30 Kwh V 60 just under 7 seconds 0-60 V 10 seconds for the Leaf.

320 Km V 160 odd for the 30 Kwh Leaf.

Nissan have to have a more powerful option available but I doubt it.

No the Bolt won't be coming to Ireland and that's official from Opel.

Unfortunately it won't be rebranded as Opel like the Volt.

There's no Chevy dealer going to open here because of the Bolt.

It's a car I would definitely import for the specs, 120 Euro to tax and cost about 5 euro's for 320 Kms !!!

It's a heavy car though, 1,600 Kg but having said that the handling is pretty good in the Leaf but you do notice the weight.

Rafal

KCross wrote: »

Nissan, or any other manufacturer, are very unlikely to bring their release plans forward. This isnt a piece of computer software that they can decide to release early and then quickly fix when issues arise

How I wish you were right! I'm afraid car manufacturers seem to do precisely that: undertest and rush the software in the car and their back-end, then keep releasing fixes when customers complain. See the threads on Nissan Connect EV, and I had an equally bad experience (but not so disabling) with an i3.

Perhaps Tesla are better, but this is one reason I am hoping the Apple car will not irritate me with the quality of in-car software on the modern vehicles.

bk

KCross wrote: »

Nissan, or any other manufacturer, are very unlikely to bring their release plans forward. This isnt a piece of computer software that they can decide to release early and then quickly fix when issues arise. I'd bet they have relatively fixed project plans that cannot be pulled in by any great degree. Its like you are saying that they have the car ready but are holding it off and now they will release it because the Bolt is out.... its not reality. If they were to pull it in by 6 months it would be alot.

I'm not saying it is like a software upgrade, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if Nissan already has 60 Kwh batteries and designs ready go go, but were holding off on actually producing them because they weren't facing any competition for their current vehicles.

Why spend the money early on tooling, manufacturing, etc. if you face no competition at all?

I'm not saying a Leaf 2.0 is going to come tomorrow, but this could well be the pressure that green lights it and maybe it comes 6 to 12 months earlier then it would otherwise might have if they faced no competition.

I've seen this sort of behaviour across many industries and it wouldn't surprise at all. Just like how ISP's in the US can suddenly massively increase speeds and cut prices in half when Google Fiber comes to their market.

Competition can be a great force for advancement.

KCross wrote: »

On the price... again I wouldnt expect any manufacturer to radically reduce their prices as it would immediately hit the resale value for all their existing customers.... nothing like high depreciation to p*ss off your current customers to make them go elsewhere... so I doubt you will see large price cuts after the initial release and depreciation is already a major worry for would-be EV buyers so drastic price cuts are not in anyones favour.

Just last month, Nissan offered $10k off the 24Kwh Leaf in a couple of state in the US. The reason being, to clear stock that just wasn't going to sell with the new 30Kwh model coming.

Of course car manufactures drop the price if they product isn't selling, better to make some money on it, even break even, they leaving them to rust in storage. Just look at the deals that were available on new cars when the recession hit.

Also they can't just shut off manufacturing overnight, they would lose significant investment in factories, tooling, etc.

With a 200mile Bolt available in the US for $30k, no one is going to buy a slower, 100mile Leaf for around the same money.

That leaves Nissan with only two choices:
1) Knock 5k off the 30kWh Leaf in order to keep it selling to people with less range needs.
2) Realise a 200mile Leaf as soon as possible.

I suspect they will be forced to do both, at least in the US. Give big reductions on the current Leaf in the Us for the next year to avoid no sales and release a 60kWh Leaf end of this year, start of next year.

KCross

Rafal wrote: »

How I wish you were right! I'm afraid car manufacturers seem to do precisely that: undertest and rush the software in the car and their back-end, then keep releasing fixes when customers complain. See the threads on Nissan Connect EV, and I had an equally bad experience (but not so disabling) with an i3.

Perhaps Tesla are better, but this is one reason I am hoping the Apple car will not irritate me with the quality of in-car software on the modern vehicles.

There is of course software in these cars that could be rushed and released earlier by inadequate testing but I dont think you'll see a car coming out a year earlier as a result... a few months at most. The premise of the earlier post is that because the Bolt is out that the next Leaf will somehow get released significantly earlier (1-2 years earlier).

Thats a different point to what you are making which is that the software is crap!

I just dont think that car release cycles can be quickly reduced like the poster suggests.

bk

KCross wrote: »

There is of course software in these cars that could be rushed and released earlier by inadequate testing but I dont think you'll see a car coming out a year earlier as a result... a few months at most. The premise of the earlier post is that because the Bolt is out that the next Leaf will somehow get released significantly earlier (1-2 years earlier).

Actually where did I say 1 - 2 year earlier?!!

I think you will find I said 6 to 12 months earlier.

BTW I also wondering if they could potentially squeeze a 50kWh battery or something similar into the existing Leaf, without necessitating a complete redesign. Nissan has already been showing off a 338 miles long range Leaf in the current body, over the last few months, so it seems like it is very possible they will launch that over the next 12 months.

Remember Nissan doesn't want to Osborne effect it's existing Leafs. GM has nothing to lose by showing off the Bolt prototype early as it doesn't have an existing BEV to Osborne. Instead they are probably quietly working away on a long range Leaf behind closed dorrs and will likely only announce it when it is ready to go on sale and ship, muh as they did with the 30kWh model.

I find it very hard to believe that Nissan won't release a 200mile Leaf within a few months of the Bolt.

KCross

bk wrote: »

I'm not saying a Leaf 2.0 is going to come tomorrow, but this could well be the pressure that green lights it and maybe it comes 6 to 12 months earlier then it would otherwise might have if they faced no competition.

I've seen this sort of behaviour across many industries and it wouldn't surprise at all. Just like how ISP's in the US can suddenly massively increase speeds and cut prices in half when Google Fiber comes to their market.

Competition can be a great force for advancement.



Just last month, Nissan offered $10k off the 24Kwh Leaf in a couple of state in the US. The reason being, to clear stock that just wasn't going to sell with the new 30Kwh model coming.

Of course car manufactures drop the price if they product isn't selling, better to make some money on it, even break even, they leaving them to rust in storage. Just look at the deals that were available on new cars when the recession hit.

Also they can't just shut off manufacturing overnight, they would lose significant investment in factories, tooling, etc.

With a 200mile Bolt available in the US for $30k, no one is going to buy a slower, 100mile Leaf for around the same money.

That leaves Nissan with only two choices:
1) Knock 5k off the 30kWh Leaf in order to keep it selling to people with less range needs.
2) Realise a 200mile Leaf as soon as possible.

I suspect they will be forced to do both, at least in the US. Give big reductions on the current Leaf in the Us for the next year to avoid no sales and release a 60kWh Leaf end of this year, start of next year.

Nissan probably do have the 60kwh battery and designs ready to go. I think where we may diverge here is that I would expect that the Leaf II program is already started with a full project plan already in place. They have to go through a full design, manufacturing and test phase and that doesnt happen in a year or two. In the traditional ICE space new models were generally on a 6 year cycle. There is alot less moving parts in an EV so the cycle will be shorter but it is still a fixed cycle and as soon as Leaf 1.5 was released you can be sure they immediately started Leaf II and Nissan already know exactly what the release date for that is based on the body of work to complete. Competitors or not, they wont be able to drastically pull that release date in.

Your example of ISP speeds is not comparable here as thats a largely software and marketing thing. They could do that overnight with the "press of a button". Car development is more fixed timeline in nature.

The introduction of the Bolt will obviously set hearts racing at Nissan and I'm sure they will have to react in some way in the US... pull the date in as much as possible and reduce prices etc but I dont think it will be as drastic as you suggest or hope.

The US is also a very different market to Ireland or even Europe. Range is a bigger issue in the US. If they offer big discounts in the US, dont hold your breath for anything similar here.

KCross

bk wrote: »

Actually where did I say 1 - 2 year earlier?!!

I think you will find I said 6 to 12 months earlier.


I find it very hard to believe that Nissan won't release a 200mile Leaf within a few months of the Bolt.

I assumed you meant 1-2 years as no one would even notice if it was brough forward by a few months. My apologies if you were only saying they would bring it in by a few months, that wasnt clear to me.

I'd agree that that is likely to happen, which I did say in my first post that 6 months was probably the most they would pull it in by, if at all.

You are probably right that they will release close to the Bolt but largely because thats what the plan already was rather than the Bolt being released and Nissan somehow having to react.


Long term as EV evolves I'm sure there will be tit for tat releases for many years to come anyway as they all fight for market share and better batteries etc, so this one instance of the Bolt being released wont be a one off game changer moment... its one of many I'd say, since it is a "new" market that is evolving fast.

bk

KCross wrote: »

Long term as EV evolves I'm sure there will be tit for tat releases for many years to come anyway as they all fight for market share and better batteries etc, so this one instance of the Bolt being released wont be a one off game changer moment... its one of many I'd say, since it is a "new" market that is evolving fast.

Actually that is what excites me so much about the Bolt. Until now Nissan has pretty much had the entire affordable EV market to itself and feel likely they have been coasting.

The Bolt is going to inject some serious competition into the market and force Nissan and other companies (Ford/Tesla/VW) to be much more competitive and innovative.

Multiple companies making tit for tat releases is exactly what the EV market needs to help launch EV's into the mainstream.

KCross wrote: »

Your example of ISP speeds is not comparable here as thats a largely software and marketing thing. They could do that overnight with the "press of a button". Car development is more fixed timeline in nature.

Sorry slightly off topic, but this is actually my area of expertise. It certainly wasn't a "press the button" to increase speeds, in fact it costs billions to rollout these higher speeds. In involved massive investments in core fiber networks, new DOCSIS 3.0/3.1 multichannel modems, node splitting, etc.

The point is while they had already developed these technologies, they hadn't actually deployed them (beyond small scales tests), which is where the most cost comes from. They couldn't be bothered to make the investments in the required network upgrades while they faced no competition, why would they?

But once Google Fiber entered their markets, they now had no choice but to make the required billion dollar deployment investments or risk losing their market share.

We have seen the same here in Ireland with Eir/com only investing in FTTC/VDSL and now FTTH as a result of competition from Virgin/UPC and now Siro.

I'm saying the same is likely with Nissan. Of course Nissan has invested in researching and developing 50 to 60kWh batteries and a new car, but they may have been holding off on actually putting these developments into production until they faced this new competition.

Competition is great

The other possibly big problem for Nissan is that the Bolt's battery has thermal management , something the 60 Kwh Leaf does not and considering the problems Nissan are having in the hot climates of the U.S I think they will have a hard time selling the Leaf in these areas.

Nissan may very well release Leaf II early but I doubt it because GM are releasing the Bolt initially in limited supply, they may possible ramp up production if the demand is there but maybe not. I expect Nissan only to respond if they do ramp up production until they are sure Leaf II is finally ready for production. I don't expect the Bolt to reach full production until late 2017 early 2018 by which time the Leaf II will be available.

Nissan could also have faster than 50 Kw charging for leaf II and there is strong indication they will even from Nissan themselves, the bolt makes do seemingly with 45 Kw , which for a 60 kwh battery seems very low, and I very much doubt faster charging is something they would keep quiet.

NIMAN

Something that I don't think that anyone has mentioned yet here is looks.

The Leaf isn't a pretty looking car IMHO. This Bolt is much better and more traditionally styled.

The more competition is launched for the Leaf, the more it's sales will struggle unless they redesign the shape of it.

nokia69

The Leaf looks better to me

Rafal

NIMAN wrote: »

Something that I don't think that anyone has mentioned yet here is looks.

The Leaf isn't a pretty looking car IMHO. This Bolt is much better and more traditionally styled.

Quite the opposite for me. I dislike that old-fashioned, well-tested and perhaps a little boring "traditional" styling of the Bolt, and much prefer the slightly more adventurous Leaf, but I wish it went a bit further, closer to the Nissan 2018 concept EV car. I guess we all differ in our likes.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

Nissan may very well release Leaf II early but I doubt it because GM are releasing the Bolt initially in limited supply, they may possible ramp up production if the demand is there but maybe not. I expect Nissan only to respond if they do ramp up production until they are sure Leaf II is finally ready for production. I don't expect the Bolt to reach full production until late 2017 early 2018 by which time the Leaf II will be available.

Just a point on the so called "limited release" of the Bolt. The report is 30,000 Bolts. If they sell all those in the US, then that would be almost double the number of Leafs sold in the US in 2015, just 17,250!

Worldwide, it took Nissan 6 years to sell 198000 Leafs, that is about 33,000 per year. So the Bolts limited estimates really aren't far off the Leaf.

BTW reports from GM factory workers on facebook already reporting that the Bolt factory line and tooling is currently being put in place and ramping up and they are expecting a summer 2016 release. Of course that is coming from GM employees so take it with a pinch of salt, but I think this could all ramp up much sooner then people were expecting.

GM already has plenty of EV experience, they created the first EV and more recently they have created the best PHEV with the Volt that seems to be mature extremely well with the gen 2. Also people need to remember this is as much a LG car as it is a GM car. This is a very important project for them.

Looks aren't everything for me, I prefer functionality, interior, comfort, gadgets and how it drives.

I do like the rear and the sides of the Leaf, front not so much but those headlights make for some very quite motoring by diverting wind over the wing mirrors.

bk

bk wrote: »

Just a point on the so called "limited release" of the Bolt. The report is 30,000 Bolts. If they sell all those in the US, then that would be almost double the number of Leafs sold in the US in 2015, just 17,250!

Worldwide, it took Nissan 6 years to sell 198000 Leafs, that is about 33,000 per year. So the Bolts limited estimates really aren't far off the Leaf.

BTW reports from GM factory workers on facebook already reporting that the Bolt factory line and tooling is currently being put in place and ramping up and they are expecting a summer 2016 release. Of course that is coming from GM employees so take it with a pinch of salt, but I think this could all ramp up much sooner then people were expecting.

GM already has plenty of EV experience, they created the first EV and more recently they have created the best PHEV with the Volt that seems to be mature extremely well with the gen 2. Also people need to remember this is as much a LG car as it is a GM car. This is a very important project for them.

It's anyone's guess how things will turn out, it could be that if Leaf II has 100 Kw charging then that alone could tempt a lot of people away from the Bolt with only 45 odd Kw charging which is ridiculous really considering the technology. And especially ridiculous considering it's highly likely leaf II will require no active cooling.

Above is the Bolt battery.

Here's a link to more info.

https://transportevolved.com/2016/01/11/confirmed-2017-chevrolet-bolt-has-60-kwh-battery-pack-150-kilowatt-electric-motor/

It genuinely looks like the Bolt won't have more than 50 kw charging and it's a huge shame. Lack of infrastructure isn't an excuse !!!

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

Looks aren't everything for me, I prefer functionality, interior, comfort, gadgets and how it drives.

Then it looks like you would love the Bolt, seems to have some extremely nice interior tech.

The rear view mirror is actually not a mirror, but instead a screen that displays the rear view camera and has a much wider angle of view then any mirror.

It also has both a drivers 8" info panel and 10" touch screen control panel, plus an extremely nice looking interior.

BTW Seems like the CEO of Nissan has been dropping VERY heavy hints about the Leaf 2 at the auto show on in the US at the moment and as I predicted he says that can't talk too much about their plans for the Leaf 2 in the same way as GM can about the Bolt, here is what he said:

“Obviously, the LEAF is going to go though a lot of transformation. First we announced more autonomy, more range. But there is going to be a new LEAF coming. We didn’t take the leadership of electric car to abandon it. We are going to be fighting for it, we are going to continue to develop cars. But we would like to make announcement just before the cars come and not a long time before. So you are going to see us coming with products, with technologies, with enhancements, with reduction of costs and (more range).”

Ironically he said this with pictures of the Nissan IDS Concept behind him a 200 mile, 60 kWh "concept" car which is quiet clearly the Leaf 2 disguised and then they went and gave journalists a tour of their R&D facility to show off their new "concept" car with it's new 60 kWh battery, which is all very obviously the Leaf 2.

http://insideevs.com/nissan-ids-concept-future-nissan-leaf-drag-report/

Most interestingly the new 60 kWh battery is almost the exact same size and dimensions as the current 30kWh so it is very obvious that it is ready for the Leaf 2.

BTW Mad_Lad will be delighted to hear that this "leaf 2 concept" uses 100kw DC charging.

From what we are seeing here I think we can expect to See the Leaf 2 hit in 2017 and not long after the Bolt.

Oh and BTW it seems LG Chem will be building the battery for the Leaf 2, the same company doing the Bolt battery.

BBTW Seems like the new Nissan battery is actually closer to 70 kWh, but with 60 usable, quote from a cooment in the above article:

The second generation NMC cells from LG Chem have 65 Ah. This means 288 x 65 Ah x 3,7 V = 69,3 kWh

So the 60 kWh capacity should be usable. 87 % usable capacity seems right.

bk

More battery porn, here is the current Leaf 30 kWh battery and Nissans new 60 kWh battery side by side:

I do think the lack of thermal management is a mistake. But Nissan Obviously doesn't think so.

70 Kwh, 10 Kwh buffer would seem rather odd. It would mean that battery would last practically forever.

100 Kw charging is not a surprise, Nissan have been testing much faster charging since 2011 and have hinted many times Leaf Ii will have faster charging.

100 Kw charging is fantastic, and I hope it can use the Tesla super chargers when they're installed here sometime in 2016, (supposedly)

Question is how long will it take the ESB to upgrade and where will the money come from if people are moaning of paying 30 C per min charging.

As I kept telling the people who wouldn't shut up about the 30 C/min, if you can charge at 100 Kw at 30 C a min then you get more than twice the range for the money than you get at 45 Kw. But they wouldn't stop moaning, running to the media doing far more harm than the ESB charges that the majority of the public wouldn't even have been aware of.

I still wonder what the hell GM were thinking, 50 kw DC ? come on that's sooooo 2011 !!!

More automation will be welcome and fully automated driving home 66 Kms after night shifts would be really fantastic for me.

2017 will be pretty close to Nissan's initial target, Probably at the earliest Q2 , most likely Q3 2017.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

As I kept telling the people who wouldn't shut up about the 30 C/min, if you can charge at 100 Kw at 30 C a min then you get more than twice the range for the money than you get at 45 Kw. But they wouldn't stop moaning, running to the media doing far more harm than the ESB charges that the majority of the public wouldn't even have been aware of.

Actually a bigger issue exists for the ESB charging network. With 200 mile cars, the ESB network becomes irrelevant for most people.

You can get from Dublin to any city in Ireland in 200 miles, very few people would sign up to €17 per month subscription with 200 mile cars, I know I wouldn't. And it will only get worse as batteries get more and more range. 200 miles, 300 miles, etc.

I'm convinced that level 2 chargers will be offered free by hotels, shopping centers, cinemas, etc. for free as a convenience to the customers.

As for the level 3 network, I think it will simply have to be subsidised by the government, much in the same way as they subsidise roads, public lightning, etc. It will just be another piece of motoring infrastructure.

No subs, priced at twice the average home rate per kWh (to discourage unnecessary charging), use your credit/debit card to pay so foreign visitors can easily use.

There won't be a need for a large number of level 3 chargers, not when most EV's have 200 miles or more and most people charge at home anyway.

To be honest I think trying to make money out of EV charging doesn't make economic sense anyway.

bk

bk wrote: »

Actually a bigger issue exists for the ESB charging network. With 200 mile cars, the ESB network becomes irrelevant for most people.

You can get from Dublin to any city in Ireland in 200 miles, very few people would sign up to €17 per month subscription with 200 mile cars, I know I wouldn't. And it will only get worse as batteries get more and more range. 200 miles, 300 miles, etc.

I'm convinced that level 2 chargers will be offered free by hotels, shopping centers, cinemas, etc. for free as a convenience to the customers.

As for the level 3 network, I think it will simply have to be subsidised by the government, much in the same way as they subsidise roads, public lightning, etc. It will just be another piece of motoring infrastructure.

No subs, priced at twice the average home rate per kWh (to discourage unnecessary charging), use your credit/debit card to pay so foreign visitors can easily use.

There won't be a need for a large number of level 3 chargers, not when most EV's have 200 miles or more and most people charge at home anyway.

To be honest I think trying to make money out of EV charging doesn't make economic sense anyway.

The ESB Network will be irrelevant for most peoples trips however if there are a large number of electrics on the road the demand for the network will grow considerably because more people will be taking longer trips and need to charge.

If the ESB charge a fee that's comparable to diesel at this point of 200 mile range cars I don't see a problem because most people will rarely see a fast charger so who cares ?

I've no idea where future funding will come from, why would the ESB fund 100 Kw chargers for instance if there's to be little profit ?

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

I've no idea where future funding will come from, why would the ESB fund 100 Kw chargers for instance if there's to be little profit ?

From the government, just like how they pay for public street lighting. The ESB, Airtricity, etc. compete for the contract to run the public street lighting which is paid for by the local councils.

It would be paid for by the NRA out of their massive roads budget.

I just don't believe the economics are there for expensive paid charging.

Think about it, a petrol station works because it only takes 5 minutes to fill a tank. So potentially you can have 12 sales an hour for each pump.

That isn't possible with EV's, best case scenario you have 2 per hour, more likely just one. So in order to make as much money as petrol you need to charge the equivalent of 6 to 12 petrol fills. Even electricity priced at the equivalent of diesel isn't good enough. It would need to be 6 to 12 times the cost of diesel to equal petrol stations profits.

Given that most EV owners are very price concious, I don't see any of them willing to pay that. The economics of the whole thing is simply bust. Once the capital cost is out of the way (paid for by the government/EU anyway), the cost of electricity is simply too low, while the time it takes too high for a commercial, for profit, enterprise.

I think Tesla has looked at this and knows this very well, which is why they decided to build their own supercharger network and include the price of charging in the cost of the car.

I can see business offering free level 2 and maybe level 3 charging to their customers. Staying at a hotel, buy a meal, etc. get free charging.

Outside of that I think the government simply needs to subsidise the operation and maintenance of the Level 3 network.

And to be honest I don't see any issue with that. They already subsidise most elements of transport. No one pays the real price for Dublin Bus, Irish Rail, Luas, etc. If they didn't ticket prices would be at least 2 to 3 times more then they are.

Almost every Dublin Bus you see on the street, all actually bought and paid for by the NTA and lent to DB for their use. That is right, every year the NTA buys DB about 120 new buses at 300,000 per bus! And that is nothing compared to the roads budget.

The government is also about to subsidise 300,000 rural homes with a FTTH broadband network to the tune of half a billion!

The running of a Level 3 network in comparison is a drop in the ocean.

Rafal

bk wrote: »

From what we are seeing here I think we can expect to See the Leaf 2 hit in 2017 and not long after the Bolt.

I have seen some Nissan emails which mention "late 2018" with regards to that concept car/Leaf 2.

bk

Rafal wrote: »

I have seen some Nissan emails which mention "late 2018" with regards to that concept car/Leaf 2.

Nissan Dealers? or HQ?

Because of course the dealers would want to push the idea of late 2018 (even HQ partly) in order to not Osbourne their current Leaf sales.

Perhaps they mean a totally new Leaf/concept car, but will still squeeze the 60kWh battery in the current Leaf for 2017.

It is extremely hard to believe that Nissan wouldn't release a 60kWh Leaf until two years after the Bolt! It simply makes no logical sense, they wouldn't sell hardly any Leafs during that 2 years!

Maybe they would bring a 60kWh only to the US in 2017 to compete with the Bolt and 2018 for Europe due to lack of competition here. But that would still likely kill sales in Europe too.

Rafal

I suppose unless Nissan makes public announcements we will not know until we see it on the roads. I'd expect they will announce something, if anything to react.

bk

bk wrote: »

. So in order to make as much money as petrol you need to charge the equivalent of 6 to 12 petrol fills. Even electricity priced at the equivalent of diesel isn't good enough. It would need to be 6 to 12 times the cost of diesel to equal petrol stations profits.

This but 6..12 times the profit margin of a single customer fill. If the profit margin of petrol is 5c/l and average fill is 40l that a profit of about €2. So a full charge would then cost about €15 including the electricity price which sounds fine by me for occasional day trips of over 300 km.

Oh yeah, has it been published which charging standard the new Bolt and the Leaf II will use? The CCS seem to have more untapped capacity and is used by all the Germans whereas everybody else apart from Tesla seem to have been using Chademo.

If every manufacturer moved to CCS it would probably be a good thing. Chademo cars would then need to carry an adaptor to use CCS only stations, but those could be built quite cheaply as it would just need to translate between the protocols and provide CCS socket and Chademo plug at ends of it.

cros13

samih wrote: »

Oh yeah, has it been published which charging standard the new Bolt and the Leaf II will use?

The Bolt uses CCS. You can see in many images the yellow cover for the CCS pins below the J1772 (The american CCS has J1772 on top).

The big problem is that GM have made rapid charging an option on the Bolt. It's not included in the base price.

bk

samih wrote: »

This but 6..12 times the profit margin of a single customer fill. If the profit margin of petrol is 5c/l and average fill is 40l that a profit of about €2. So a full charge would then cost about €15 including the electricity price which sounds fine by me for occasional day trips of over 300 km.

That is ok, but doesn't take into account the much greater space a service station would require for a lot of EV's sitting there for 30 minutes+

I mean otherwise service stations would actually be quiet happy with EV's as seemingly they make very little money on petrol, they make more from the shop. However having to have a lot more space would likely be a major issue (if most cars were EV's).

Yes, €15 for once a year road trips sounds fine, but then that also doesn't sound like much business model for service stations either as most people drive right by with their 200 mile EVs 99% of the time.

I think a €15 would be ok, as long as it didn't come with any subscription. Paying €17 per month sub just so you can do €15 fill ups once or twice a year would be madness!

I think we will see service stations turn into food courts (many already are), that offer lots of level 2 charging spaces which are free if you buy a meal and perhaps just one or two level 3 chargers for €10 to €15 if you need.

I think the commercial side of it is more complicated then people make out, more complicated then simply replacing petrol pumps with EV chargers.

Actually thinking about it a bit more, with 200 mile EV's I don't think most people would even need any fast charging. 200 miles will get you from Dublin to any city in Ireland and almost every town, with no need to charge. You then charge on level 2 overnight at your hotel.

200 miles also gets you to almost every town in Ireland from Dublin, e.g. Killarney. So really the only people would would need level 3 chargers are people who need to go city to city and back again the same day. Travelling sales people, technicians, etc.

I don't think we are going to need all that many level 3 chargers in the long run. At least not from the Irish perspective. US is very different with their long road trips they take.

nokia69

Deleted User wrote: »

I've no idea where future funding will come from, why would the ESB fund 100 Kw chargers for instance if there's to be little profit ?

Because they make money from home charging, in fact they will end up making more profit from EVs than the car companies

so its in their interest to have a good public charging network

All electric cars sold in Europe from 2018 must be CCS and there are to be no more ChaDeMo chargers installed after this either.

Regarding the Government subsidising electricity, they're not going to do this on top of loosing billions in revenue from Petrol and Diesel, and the loss of motor tax revenues.

I believe garages make a lot more profit from the shop than they do on fuel so it would make more sense to install the fast chargers and they can then get people coming in to pay for food, Tea/Coffee etc.

They are not going to pay for chargers though and petrol/diesel cars won't be going anywhere for a while yet until there are more makes and models and until the E.U and our own Government stop promoting diesel as a green fuel .

CCS port optional on the bolt ? they're having a laugh. No mention to cost, but they're not cheap !

So the base price for the Bolt probably is base !

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101774_gm-wont-fund-ccs-fast-charging-sites-for-2017-chevy-bolt-ev

aliveandkicking

Deleted User wrote: »

All electric cars sold in Europe from 2018 must be CCS and there are to be no more ChaDeMo chargers installed after this either.

Not quite correct. The EU position is that all public chargers must have CCS but that doesn't mean they can't have ChaDeMo aswell. There is nothing stopping ESB installing ChaDeMo chargers as long as they have a CCS port too. Private chargers can be what they want to be, if hotels, supermarkets and car dealers want to install ChaDeMo only chargers on their own property that is their own business and nothing to do with the EU so it is wrong to say that 2018 will be the death of ChaDeMo in the EU.

aliveandkicking

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Not quite correct. The EU position is that all public chargers must have CCS but that doesn't mean they can't have ChaDeMo aswell. There is nothing stopping ESB installing ChaDeMo chargers as long as they have a CCS port too. Private chargers can be what they want to be, if hotels, supermarkets and car dealers want to install ChaDeMo only chargers on their own property that is their own business and nothing to do with the EU so it is wrong to say that 2018 will be the death of ChaDeMo in the EU.

No I'm nearly sure that all ChaDeMo installations were to cease by 2018.

I can't find any recent info.

Private installations ? sure unless there are to be no ChaDeMo chargers sold. There won't be many private charger installations, not any time soon.