Question on AI for Cattle

ERG89

I don't want to get into specifics just something in my head the last few days now.
We had a cow inseminated for a bull who calved this week. I am almost certain it wasn't the sire we ordered.
Very dangerous accusation to make I know but has anyone here or know anyone who ever encountered any problems like this.
She wasn't with our own bull or any other bull obviously so it was AI

Grueller

ERG89 wrote: »

I don't want to get into specifics just something in my head the last few days now.
We had a cow inseminated for a bull who calved this week. I am almost certain it wasn't the sire we ordered.
Very dangerous accusation to make I know but has anyone here or know anyone who ever encountered any problems like this.
She wasn't with our own bull or any other bull obviously so it was AI

Ya. Happened to me. The AI man on a dark wet night misread the code on a straw. Turned out an excellent pedigree bull calf from that insemination, a lot better than I would have expected. Got €4200 for the bull at 21 months.

The AI man made a genuine mistake and I never even said it to him as he is a very straight decent man and would be mortified if he knew.

J.O. Farmer

Is it possible anything else could have got to her unknown to you. I once saw the immaculate conception with an old cow earmarked for culling due to age. There was a bull 2 fields away who looked like he could have been the father although he wasn't seen near the cow.

Genghis Cant

I'd a Pb Charolais heifer calve a BB bull calf. Couldn't believe it.
At the time we would be putting blonde on the Charolais heifers. Genuine mistake by tge AI man he drew out the wrong straw.
The calf was a smasher.
To err is human, to forgive is devine :-)

patsy_mccabe

That's why I always check the straw myself afterwards.

Genghis Cant

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

That's why I always check the straw myself afterwards.

I used keep the straws too particularly the Pb ones. And I was able to go and root it out when it was too late. I dunno what I'd have done if I knew straight away. I suspect I'd have let her on and see how she went.
I think if it was a jersey I wouldn't be too impressed!

Base price

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

That's why I always check the straw myself afterwards.

+ 1
When I got AI man in I always picked up the discarded tube off the ground, sliced it, took out the straw and sellotaped it to the page of the diary for that day.
OP you could get a DNA test done (AI bull) but it would be at your own expense.
I know you don't what to get into specifics but is your cow pure bred.

ERG89

Base price wrote: »

+ 1
When I got AI man in I always picked up the discarded tube off the ground, sliced it, took out the straw and sellotaped it to the page of the diary for that day.
OP you could get a DNA test done (AI bull) but it would be at your own expense.
I know you don't what to get into specifics but is your cow pure bred.

No she isn't, the calf is remarkably physically like a Belgian Blue & when you order an easy calving angus you see our problem.
We've had 4 AI'd this year, first 2 were fine with 1 left now & there is no way any other bull got to her unless he can open a shed door.

Base price

ERG89 wrote: »

No she isn't, the calf is remarkably physically like a Belgian Blue & when you order an easy calving angus you see our problem.
We've had 4 AI'd this year, first 2 were fine with 1 left now & there is no way any other bull got to her unless he can open a shed door.

Any problems calving?
What breed/cross is the cow. Is she one of your own or did you buy her in?
What colour is the calf and does he/she have that polled look about its head with the full forelock lying flat iykwim.

ERG89

Base price wrote: »

Any problems calving?
What breed/cross is the cow. Is she one of your own or did you buy her in?
What colour is the calf and does he/she have that polled look about its head with the full forelock lying flat iykwim.

Yeah problem calving as he was fuçking huge tbh. She's a charolais cross but not bought in & far from a first timer.
The calf is black, I don't think he's polled, but already I can see how long he is, his backside is far more defined than I imagined & he was slower than expected to get going. I'm not sure 100% as I keep telling myself they can't have screwed it up.

Base price

ERG89 wrote: »

Yeah problem calving as he was fuçking huge tbh. She's a charolais cross but not bought in & far from a first timer.
The calf is black, I don't think he's polled, but already I can see how long he is, his backside is far more defined than I imagined & he was slower than expected to get going. I'm not sure 100% as I keep telling myself they can't have screwed it up.

I'm not taking their side or questioning your knowledge but the calving issue could have to do with the cows body score, how many days over, what feed she was getting etc, etc.
I never had an issue with mixed up straws while I kept a herd of sucklers/PBR's. Having said that, the last breeding beef cows that I had was 6 or 7 years ago and my AI man was very experienced.

J.O. Farmer

ERG89 wrote: »

Yeah problem calving as he was fuçking huge tbh. She's a charolais cross but not bought in & far from a first timer.
The calf is black, I don't think he's polled, but already I can see how long he is, his backside is far more defined than I imagined & he was slower than expected to get going. I'm not sure 100% as I keep telling myself they can't have screwed it up.

Would many Belgian blues bring a black calf from a charolais cross cow. The size of the calf is more likely to be to do with feeding gestation length etc. The calf slow to get going is likely due to the hard calving.

ERG89

Base price wrote: »

I'm not taking their side or questioning your knowledge but the calving issue could have to do with the cows body score, how many days over, what feed she was getting etc, etc.
I never had an issue with mixed up straws while I kept a herd of sucklers/PBR's. Having said that, the last breeding beef cows that I had was 6 or 7 years ago and my AI man was very experienced.

She was about 6 days over, she's well able to push a calf. She was on silage & getting a pinch of nuts once a day, same as every other cow last year & this.
It's the size & particularly the length of the calf I can't get out of my head, we specifically wanted an easy calving for her so went with the AI.

J.O. Farmer

ERG89 wrote: »

She was about 6 days over, she's well able to push a calf. She was on silage & getting a pinch of nuts once a day, same as every other cow last year & this.
It's the size & particularly the length of the calf I can't get out of my head, we specifically wanted an easy calving for her so went with the AI.

It sounds like you have a good calf born alive so there's no point in worrying about it now.
the thing that you should think about though is why you specially wanted an easy calving angus for her when it sounds like you've a stock buĺl since that was why you went for AI.
A mature cow managed correctly will generally calve harder bulls than an easy calving angus unassisted and maybe I'm wrong but if you run a stock bull who you thought was too hard calving for this cow but alright for the others maybe you should think about letting her off.

Buford T. Justice XIX

ERG89 wrote: »

I don't want to get into specifics just something in my head the last few days now.
We had a cow inseminated for a bull who calved this week. I am almost certain it wasn't the sire we ordered.
Very dangerous accusation to make I know but has anyone here or know anyone who ever encountered any problems like this.
She wasn't with our own bull or any other bull obviously so it was AI

I was at a talk a while back and the speaker was saying about 5% of friesian bull calves tested for AI have different sires that what was recorded on the AI docket.

Mistakes happen, especially during the peak AI season.

Hope the cow and calf do well for you.

mikeoh

ERG89 wrote:

No she isn't, the calf is remarkably physically like a Belgian Blue & when you order an easy calving angus you see our problem. We've had 4 AI'd this year, first 2 were fine with 1 left now & there is no way any other bull got to her unless he can open a shed door.

Which AA bull did u order as I see 1or 2 AA bulls in AI can't be used for pedigree as they carry the double muscle gene!!!!!

tanko

mikeoh wrote: »

Which AA bull did u order as I see 1or 2 AA bulls in AI can't be used for pedigree as they carry the double muscle gene!!!!!

Which AA Bulls are they?

ERG89

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

It sounds like you have a good calf born alive so there's no point in worrying about it now.
the thing that you should think about though is why you specially wanted an easy calving angus for her when it sounds like you've a stock buĺl since that was why you went for AI.
A mature cow managed correctly will generally calve harder bulls than an easy calving angus unassisted and maybe I'm wrong but if you run a stock bull who you thought was too hard calving for this cow but alright for the others maybe you should think about letting her off.

Tbh we went the Ai route to try get a heifer out of her. Only other trouble calving this year was one backwards.
The whole easy calving thing well its more that is what was specifically mentioned in the bull catalogue it wasn't really a prerequisite, she never had any trouble before out of our bull & he's a big Limousin.
Maybe I'm wrong saying it's a belgain blue but we use AI mainly for first timers & if it wasn't a experienced cow she'd be in major trouble

Miname

Throw up a picture of the cow and calf.

Fuxake

Not all Angus bulls are guaranteed to throw a handy one every single time. We had a real hard bastard outta GJB (3.5% calving difficulty although other angus are easier still) on a Simmy heifer.

Thing is that any bull can occasionally throw a tricky one. More to the point, the cow is 50% of the genetics so maybe the cow had big bone along with muscle influencing the calf?

mikeoh

AA2121...three bridge emblem (pg) and oakchurch dictator (Sligo) both carry double muscle gene

Future Farmer

ERG89 wrote: »

Tbh we went the Ai route to try get a heifer out of her. Only other trouble calving this year was one backwards.
The whole easy calving thing well its more that is what was specifically mentioned in the bull catalogue it wasn't really a prerequisite, she never had any trouble before out of our bull & he's a big Limousin.
Maybe I'm wrong saying it's a belgain blue but we use AI mainly for first timers & if it wasn't a experienced cow she'd be in major trouble

For your own piece of mind, I would contact the local area manager, tell them your story, see what was put through the handheld for the serve that day, then possibly say you want to get a DNA test, get the calf tested - think it's weatherbys, and then go for there.

But as previously mentioned some AA do carry double muscle gene: AA2121.

LivInt20

Used the BDGP this year to Genotype the calf, that way will know the sire.

sonnybill

Sounds like a AA and a hefty one at that.. Even a black n white blue would throw some white in there you'd imagine .

Know a man that had a FR bull calf out of a fine suckler ;-) it does happen

Kovu

I've calved a lot of blues and have yet to get one fully black. You'd be surprised how small some blues are when they come out, take a look at his bone, if its thick it's hardly a blue. Have you checked him for butts of horn? That'd be the sure fire giveaway.
A lad I dehorn calves for had a heifer sectioned to an AA early last year, it does happen!

patsy_mccabe

I have seen all black BB calves from black limousine cows. I wouldn't go on colour at all. I'd be more inclined to go on other characteristics like bone, width of muzzle, liveliness in the first few days. Once the calf gets older, you will be more certain what breed it is, when you see the shape, muscle developing.

welton john

found a few pics of a lad born here last year.295 days angus x fr. Have sucklers aswell here and never got one with bone and size like him.like ourselves they can be all shapes and sizes.Attachment not found.Photo0130.jpg

mikeoh

ERG89 wrote:

I don't want to get into specifics just something in my head the last few days now. We had a cow inseminated for a bull who calved this week

What bull did u order for her anyway

RD10

I'll throw up a picture here tomorrow of a limousin calf that was supposedly 'easy calving'
Bloody monster of a calf when he was born, got caught twice on the way out. Completely wedged at the hips for a few moments. Only his mother is such a big cow i Was damn lucky.

tanko

RD10 wrote: »

I'll throw up a picture here tomorrow of a limousin calf that was supposedly 'easy calving'
Bloody monster of a calf when he was born, got caught twice on the way out. Completely wedged at the hips for a few moments. Only his mother is such a big cow i Was damn lucky.

Which bull was he off?

RD10

tanko wrote: »

Which bull was he off?

Cant think of his code now but il get it looked up tomorrow. Double muscle aswell i'd say. thats wat he certainly looked anyway. Some arse on him!

Genghis Cant

We've the odd cow and no matter what bull we'd put on her she'd bring a bear of a calf. Some tanks of cows breed tanks of calves. And they wouldn't necessarily be fleshy calves, just bear like!