Is this the final nail in the coffin for many CFT clubs?

megafan

While most dive organisations are going down the self certification route seems CFT are becoming more draconian?

See below...

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Fitness to Dive - Water Fitness Test



The water fitness test is required annually of all CFT divers. All diving members must demonstrate,without difficulty, the ability to complete three inwater exercises. The exercise may be carried out in a swimming pool or in a sheltered open water setting.

Upon completion of this test the Diving Officer must update each candidate’s fitness test on COMS.



Pool Exercises

1 Snorkel or swim 200m without stopping within a 10 minutes time frame (Without fins)

2 Snorkel dive with fins and mask and fin a distance of 25m underwater

3 Tow a snorkel diver 50m



Or



Open Water exercises

1 Snorkel or swim 400m without stopping within a 10 minutes time frame (With fins)

2 Snorkel dive to 5m in sheltered open water

3Tow a snorkel diver 50m



General Guidelines

1 The test may be carried out by the Diving Officer or by his/her nominee

2 Repeat testing should be at the discretion of the Diving Officer

3 If any person becomes unusually breathless, the pool test must be stopped

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Meanaspie

Are you new to CFT? That's always been the way for as long as I can remember! The reason it's required is for insurance purposes, that's a big difference with being a CFT diver as opposed to PADI/SSI, you get world wide insurance cover with CFT. Plus they are all skills that may at sometime become necessary when diving if difficulties arise.

Rather than being draconian I thing this is extremely prudent, yes it's a bit of a pain in the arse having to do it, but is just as important as CPR refreshers.

megafan

Meanaspie wrote: »

That's always been the way for as long as I can remember!

New improved test only introduced this year!

Meanaspie

I've always done those pool requirements every year...

yankinlk

The final nail in the coffin? Titles a bit dramatic maybe? For a 50 year old organization that boasts continued membership of some of its founding members (a few of them still diving!)... we have a duty of care to our membership to see them into the next 50 years.

While I would always welcome feedback (positive and negative) to IUC/CFT energy might be better spent coming to Athlone and voicing you or your clubs concern at the DO/TO conference on Saturday morning or even attending the AGM on Sunday.

https://www.facebook.com/DiveIrelandExpo/?fref=nf

megafan

Yankinlk... What you say about CFT having a lot of older aged divers might be true & the problem… the age profile in a lot of CFT clubs could veer towards fifty & over…… Now like your older car driver would tend to be a safer driver an older driver/diver would know their limitations & safely work within them … & I Dunno if the WE you quote is the royal WE & includes us all… whatever your/our concern re duty of care? Is touching but not necessary…. Infact flogging the poor devils may do more damage if not to their health then to club when they leave (all fees help to keep clubs alive)…. I would also think qualified divers of all ages would know & understand their limitations… I would suggest that these new qualification skills should be brought before the conference in Athlone so clubs can have their say on them before being introduced not after?…

& Club Meanaspie may have had to do these qualifications & if so why?? Maybe a small club of gym bunnies & involved in extreme diving…

yankinlk

1. We have always had a pool test, and we have always had a requirement to have them signed off by a club DO to validate insurance.

The ONLY change this year is in BOLD.
Pool Excercies: 1 .Snorkel or swim 200m without stopping within a 10 minutes time frame. (Without fins)


Open Water Exercises: 1 Snorkel or swim 400m without stopping within a 10 minutes time frame. (With fins)

2. The membership is not majority over 50. Its true though that one of our greatest strengths is in RETAINING divers well into their 50+ years. They are the most experienced and often times best teachers. Thank goodness for them. It is thru diving that I have a new found respect for older people.

3. Final nail in a coffin...the Club diving scene is thriving (thank goodness). The economy is turning and so are the membership numbers. The same thing is happening in the Consumer Diving world in Ireland - and thats good too. There is always going to be room for both.

You mind me asking how many years are you a Club member?

I will openly admit I am 10 years in the organization, fiercely loyal, and also a member of the executive. I have access to stats, figures, membership numbers, and experience in the ins and outs of Insurance and many other matters like this ... so im not just making it up.

Having said that... I would still encourage you to bring your opinion to your DO/TO and if they want to represent that opinion at the DO/TO conference, they are welcome to. Come with an open mind, I know we will!

megafan

yankinlk wrote: »

1. We have always had a pool test, and we have always had a requirement to have them signed off by a club DO to validate insurance.

The ONLY change this year is in BOLD.
Pool Excercies: 1 within a 10 minutes time frame. (Without fins)


Open Water Exercises: 1 within a 10 minutes time frame. (With fins)

Without fins? (& time limit) Big difference so!

Pawwed Rig

Out of interest, why a time limit? Always thought swimming was an over rated skill with regard to scuba diving.

Meanaspie

megafan wrote: »

& Club Meanaspie may have had to do these qualifications & if so why?? Maybe a small club of gym bunnies & involved in extreme diving…

I'm in the Curragh, which AFAIK is one of the largest clubs in the country, so far from a small club of gym bunnies involved in extreme diving. In fact I did my pool tests last night and witness two of our members who are in their 60s and 70s respectively complete them with no problem or complaints.

As Yankinlk pointed out the only real change is a time limit (I'm not sure if you could previously do the 200m in pool with fins) but the time limit is hardly constricting - 200m in 10mins is a length every minute in most pools, I can't imagine anyone who is even in the smallest way active being unable to complete that!

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Out of interest, why a time limit? Always thought swimming was an over rated skill with regard to scuba diving.

I can't comment on why the introduction of the time limit. But as far as swimming being overrated in regards to scuba I can see where you're coming from, but there's often times after a dive when you'll surface and have to swim to the boat, say for example you're diving a cliff face and there's a bit of a swell the boat can't safely come pick you up so you'll have to swim. Now 99.9% of the time you'll have your fins and that so it's easy but people have a tendency to lose fins. So the swimming element I guess in my eyes anyway is preparing you for any possibility.

Pawwed Rig

Meanaspie wrote: »

I can't imagine anyone who is even in the smallest way active being unable to complete that!

I would struggle with that and would be fit enough otherwise. For various reasons would never get to practise swimming.

megafan

Swimming in full dive gear without fins! Have you tried it? however that is not part of the test.... & yes you could do the test with fins before..... & I would wonder if it is necessary to be a strong swimmer to scuba dive considering so much restrictive gear & buoyancy.... A level of fitness yes & maybe no need for ability to swim even... arms used mainly for thrust in swimming legs (with fins) in scuba diving/snorkeling...

Meanaspie

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I would struggle with that and would be fit enough otherwise. For various reasons would never get to practise swimming.

I think maybe the numbers are a bit daunting when seen on paper. I imagine anyone active in a club would have no issue completing it, but maybe I am wrong, it's been known to happen on occasion

megafan wrote: »

Swimming in full dive gear without fins! Have you tried it? however that is not part of the test.... & yes you could do the test with fins before..... & I would wonder if it is necessary to be a strong swimmer to scuba dive considering so much restrictive gear & buoyancy.... A level of fitness yes & maybe no need for ability to swim even... arms used mainly for thrust in swimming legs (with fins) in scuba diving/snorkeling...

I have tried it and it is extremely difficult, but as you said it's not part of the test. It's not necessary to be a strong swimmer to dive by any means. But I know PADI who we all know are the largest scuba organisation in the world require you to be able to swim 200m without fins.

megafan

Meanaspie wrote: »

It's not necessary to be a strong swimmer to dive by any means..

So why the change in "fitness to dive" rules?? :mad:

Meanaspie

megafan wrote: »

So why the change in "fitness to dive" rules?? :mad:

It's not necessary to be a strong swimmer but it is necessary to be able to swim, I don't think 200m in 10mins is a big ask, like I previously said I think that for anyone in a club that really shouldn't be a problem, but I could be wrong.

megafan

Meanaspie wrote: »

It's not necessary to be a strong swimmer but it is necessary to be able to swim, I don't think 200m in 10mins is a big ask, like I previously said I think that for anyone in a club that really shouldn't be a problem, but I could be wrong.[/QUOTE]


Well as you say "not necessary to be a strong swimmer" & admit "you could be wrong" & why would you even need the ability to swim to go diving?

Meanaspie

megafan wrote: »

Meanaspie wrote: »

It's not necessary to be a strong swimmer but it is necessary to be able to swim, I don't think 200m in 10mins is a big ask, like I previously said I think that for anyone in a club that really shouldn't be a problem, but I could be wrong.[/QUOTE]


Well as you say "not necessary to be a strong swimmer" & admit "you could be wrong" & why would you even need the ability to swim to go diving?

IMO you don't need to be a strong swimmer to swim 200m in 10mins, I believe anyone who knows how to swim would be able to complete it! As for why you need to be able to swim to go diving :rolleyes: like seriously just think about that one for a second the answer is obvious...

yankinlk

Im not sure you are being serious now when you ask a question like this... "why would you even need the ability to swim to go diving?"

Get tripped, knocked, slip, and fall into the water?
Fall off a boat?
Lose your dive gear?

I can imagine a scenario where someone wants to go scuba diving. They have cash in hand and want to tick that box once in their life. Turn up at a club for training and simply tell no one they are terrified of the water. I sure hope it comes up before they are a mile off the coast in a rib.

locum-motion

Meanaspie wrote: »

megafan wrote: »

...IMO you don't need to be a strong swimmer to swim 200m in 10mins, I believe anyone who knows how to swim would be able to complete it! ...

I know a guy who was a VERY poor swimmer who completed both 200m (for PADI OW) and 400m (for PADI DM) swims by doggy paddling!
(I swam alongside him for the 400m one, just in case, but he completed it without assistance)
He's now a PADI Staff Instructor, and (AFAIK) still a weak swimmer.
However, stick a pair of fins on him, and he's a feckin' fish.
(And he dives with a 10l cylinder and still comes back with more air than I'd have in my 15!)

megafan

yankinlk… Confidence in the water is the key & yes you would presume a good swimmer would be confident under the water… But it’s never that simple we have very good swimmers in our club & can swim as quick if not faster (without fins) as somebody with fins… But put a pair of fins on them & very average… huge upper body strength but weak leg muscles…. & regards falling in water their dive suit (wet or dry) would have buoyancy & life jackets/buoyancy devices are worn at sea…

Do you need to be able to swim to go fishing, boating/yachting? Sports where you’re as likely to fall into water!

Of course it is very worthwhile to learn to swim for safety reasons even if you’re a land lubber….

megafan

& yankinlk notice you’ve given a thanks to locum-motion’s post… are we beginning to understand? The guy locum-motion is talking about was a poor swimmer & still is… likely he was relatively young when he did these tests & the older (& maybe slower?) he gets makes it less likely he could repeat test yet he still will be a PADI Staff Instructor…. Do CFT ask leading divers to repeat the leading diver test every couple of years? No they don’t!..... People join CFT to do reactional diving as a pleasurable pastime & as long as they are aware of the sea, qualified, reasonably fit & healthy good luck to them…. But flogging to near death doing timed swims a No No!.... they can join a swimming club for that....... By all means continue to have qualifying snorkels (no harm keeping people familiar with the sea!)…. I noted on a pervious post you stated you were a member of the Executive maybe you might have some influence to reign in the more gung-ho members of the Executive? (they’ll have us back diving under the American military rules again given half a chance!)

yankinlk

I am a member - same as you. My opinion holds no more weight then yours does.

If I had a problem with a rule change I would voice it in my club first, if all my club agreed (especially the more experienced Instructors) then by all means - send it up to Regional (RDO level). If the RDO agreed, most likely you are not alone - now you have something... sure, bring it to the AGM.

Ranting on boards.ie is not (normally) going to get you anywhere. This message will not be forwarded.

I liked locumotion post and not yours because i dont agree with 90% of what you are saying...but i dont have the time to argue every point. Its also not my job to set the rules or to "influence" them to change.

Meanaspie

megafan wrote: »

& yankinlk notice you’ve given a thanks to locum-motion’s post… are we beginning to understand? The guy locum-motion is talking about was a poor swimmer & still is… likely he was relatively young when he did these tests & the older (& maybe slower?) he gets makes it less likely he could repeat test yet he still will be a PADI Staff Instructor…. Do CFT ask leading divers to repeat the leading diver test every couple of years? No they don’t!..... People join CFT to do reactional diving as a pleasurable pastime & as long as they are aware of the sea, qualified, reasonably fit & healthy good luck to them…. But flogging to near death doing timed swims a No No!.... they can join a swimming club for that....... By all means continue to have qualifying snorkels (no harm keeping people familiar with the sea!)…. I noted on a pervious post you stated you were a member of the Executive maybe you might have some influence to reign in the more gung-ho members of the Executive? (they’ll have us back diving under the American military rules again given half a chance!)

The fact that locum-motion's quotes my post when pointing out that a friend of his who is a poor swimmer completed the similar PADI test, it's backing up my point that you don't need to be a strong swimmer to complete the swim, not backing up your point that the changes are draconian.

megafan

Well yankinlk I’m a little confused you said you were a member of the CFT executive now what does the executive do? Surely part of your brief is setting or influencing planning.. & If not the executive who altered the qualification rules? & as a member of the executive I think you would have a little more say than me…..

Regarding the “ranting” the whole idea of “Boards” is a forum to express, ask questions, inform… create debate? I asked the question “Is This The Final Nail In The Coffin For Many CFT Clubs” after attending our club pool night to compete the pool test part of yearly qualification only to find the rules have changed…. Now I dunno about your club but a danger we might lose a number of members over this (experienced qualified divers for years & because unable to meet new conditions & time constraints suddenly unqualified) & our club has bills/re-payments to meet & with little spare cash at end of year would be under real finical pressure… would expect other clubs in same situation hence the question… “Is this final nail in the coffin for many CFT clubs”

Now you ask to bring issue to AGM in Athlone but I would think proposed changes to rules should have been put before all for discussion not after…. Bring in new rules only to have them retracted couple of months later?

The whole thing is a bit of a shambles as not well announced even Meanaspie was not aware of changes (So would presume his club also)… Quote “That’s always been the way as long as I can remember”

The changes may be no problem for some but a real issue for others… so would suggest a re-think

locum-motion

megafan wrote: »

Well yankinlk I’m a little confused you said you were a member of the CFT executive now what does the executive do? Surely part of your brief is setting or influencing planning.. & If not the executive who altered the qualification rules? & as a member of the executive I think you would have a little more say than me…..

Regarding the “ranting” the whole idea of “Boards” is a forum to express, ask questions, inform… create debate? I asked the question “Is This The Final Nail In The Coffin For Many CFT Clubs” after attending our club pool night to compete the pool test part of yearly qualification only to find the rules have changed…. Now I dunno about your club but a danger we might lose a number of members over this (experienced qualified divers for years & because unable to meet new conditions & time constraints suddenly unqualified) & our club has bills/re-payments to meet & with little spare cash at end of year would be under real finical pressure… would expect other clubs in same situation hence the question… “Is this final nail in the coffin for many CFT clubs”

Now you ask to bring issue to AGM in Athlone but I would think proposed changes to rules should have been put before all for discussion not after…. Bring in new rules only to have them retracted couple of months later?

The whole thing is a bit of a shambles as not well announced even Meanaspie was not aware of changes (So would presume his club also)… Quote “That’s always been the way as long as I can remember”

The changes may be no problem for some but a real issue for others… so would suggest a re-think

Not trying to put words in YankinLk's mouth, but I imagine what he's trying to say is that talking about it here is not going to change any rules in CFT.
Every organisation has rules about how to change rules. Usually it involves people attending a meeting of their local branch and electing representatives/delegates to go to regional or national meetings on their behalf. These delegates in turn debate the issues that their local meetings mandated them to debate, and vote upon them.

If a member of the national executive of any organisation piped up at a meeting to say "I think we should change this rule because some random anonymous guy on the internet said he didn't like it" he'd be laughed at, and quite rightly too.

If you want to change the rule, go to your local meeting, find out if your clubmates agree, get yourself elected to speak on their behalf (or elect someone who agrees with you to speak on your behalf), bring a motion to the national executive/Annual General Meeting etc...

CruelCoin

megafan wrote: »

While most dive organisations are going down the self certification route seems CFT are becoming more draconian?

What disturbs me the the option given.

A pool swim or a longer sea swim? Are they mad? You're going to certify people in open water based on a jaunt down the pool?

Benny-c

CruelCoin wrote: »

What disturbs me the the option given.

A pool swim or a longer sea swim? Are they mad? You're going to certify people in open water based on a jaunt down the pool?

It is an Annual Fitness Test to be completed by all members i.e. Instructors, Trainees etc. It is in addition to any Certification.

Freedive Ireland

Ex cft after I was blinded by the light. Always found cft clubs to be great and if anyone had a fitness test issue you could be re-taken. This is not a difficult test, if it's in any way difficult then surely it should be something to be aspired to?
Would you also say drills aren't really required as equipment rarely fails?
No matter how accomplished you are U/W is a difficult environment to survive in when things start going wrong.
I'm a bit shocked to think people are suggesting making a relatively easy test easier or redundant in the name of club fees. Or am I missing something from the conversation?

Freedive Ireland

Ex cft after I was blinded by the light. Always found cft clubs to be great and if anyone had a fitness test issue you could be re-taken. This is not a difficult test, if it's in any way difficult then surely it should be something to be aspired to?
Would you also say drills aren't really required as equipment rarely fails?
No matter how accomplished you are U/W is a difficult environment to survive in when things start going wrong.
I'm a bit shocked to think people are suggesting making a relatively easy test easier or redundant in the name of club fees. Or am I missing something from the conversation?

yankinlk

I think this argument is gone a little dead, the OP maybe has seen the light too!

3 weeks to the Dive Show now... will you be going FreeDiveIreland?
If yes, be great to catch up...

megafan

Freedive Ireland wrote: »

making a relatively easy test easier or redundant in the name of club fees. Or am I missing something from the conversation?

It's the fact the test has been made more difficult... no problem if you are a good swimmer but people who have been diving for years (& considered some of the best/safest divers in our club) & are not great swimmers but qualified divers for years now find their unqualified as unable to complete timed test... The PADI qualification has been pushed as an example but that's a test which only has to be done once (as CFT test was) & is not a timed swim & as other threads have stated people would struggle to complete it again... Fitness, confidence in the water is important & finning skills help.... but do you need to be a great swimmer??

yankinlk

megafan wrote: »

The PADI qualification has been pushed as an example but that's a test which only has to be done once (as CFT test was)

You continue to get the facts wrong and speak as if you are knowledgeable. Until you admit that cft always had an annual fitness test as I and others have pointed out your argument is pointless and the rest of your claims questionable.

Feel free to meet me in athlone. I would like to know what club you are from and hear directly from your members that are aggrieved by the timed rule change. Pm your club name if you prefer.

megafan

yankinlk wrote: »

The ONLY change this year is in BOLD.
Pool Excercies: 1 .Snorkel or swim 200m without stopping within a 10 minutes time frame. (Without fins)
!

yankink..... What facts have I got wrong? The yearly pool test used to consist of 200m pool swim with fins (with no time limit), above your quote... test has now become a 200m swim without fins & a 10 min time limit.... for poor swimmers a major change... who & why changed test... & why not put changes to all in Athlone for discussion before introduction???

Slideways

I'm of the opinion that you should be well able to do this.
As a good dive buddy this may be the difference between life and death in the event something goes wrong.

megafan

Swimming is a completely different exercise to finning & up to now there has been no issue but now that annual test has changed some who were experienced able club divers for years now are not.... Diving for most in CFT is a recreational pastime & as long as people dive within their limitations (which an experienced qualified diver would do) healthy & fit good luck to them…. Hopefully link to BSAC incident report below works correctly (always a good informative read!) & along with CFT’s report it should give a real idea where problems arise…. Poor dive planning, poorly maintained club equipment & buoyancy control are main issues ….

http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=4558&sectionTitle=Annual+Diving+Incident+Report

megafan

Swimming is a completely different exercise to finning & up to now there has been no issue but now that annual test has changed some who were experienced able club divers for years now are not.... Diving for most in CFT is a recreational pastime & as long as people dive within their limitations (which an experienced qualified diver would do) healthy & fit good luck to them…. Hopefully link to BSAC incident report below works correctly (always a good informative read!) along with CFT’s report it should give a real idea where problems arise…. Poor dive planning, poorly maintained club equipment & buoyancy control are main issues ….

http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=4558&sectionTitle=Annual+Diving+Incident+Report

Freedive Ireland

The reason you do out of air scenarios is that sometimes **** happens and you run out of air. Mask replacement in case your mask gets kicked off and I always thought it should be compulsory to have a spare in your bcd pocket so you didn't have to retrieve it or wait for a buddy. The reason you should be competent without fins ie. a swimmer is that although the scenarios are unlikely you should be able to manage if your fin (s) fall off, strap breaks, fall off the boat before kitted up etc. Surely it's better off to have redundancy after redundancy after redundancy.

megafan

Of course Freedive you cannot over estimate safety but the biggest safety device a diver has is between their ears… but appears the macho knucklehead diver is alive & well…. & I dunno what test you can have for common sense? … you as a fully qualified diver know your limits & would dive within them… being relaxed & confident in the water is all important so when problems arise (as they can do) the best option can quickly decide & if heading to the surface is your only option it needs to be a controlled accent where a cool head is needed rather than brawn..
I posted a link in earlier post to the BSAC incident report (& it appears to work.. result!) in the summary you might note they’ve decided dive medicals are even a waste of time? An honest reporting on declaration form more important! & in report another highlight is they’ve noted 26% of divers diving in threes end up in separation, no reason to think any different here (maybe other more important thing to consider?)..


I include link again worth a read… http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=4558&sectionTitle=Annual+Diving+Incident+Report