gene ireland euro ratings increase

greenpetrol

I may be a suspicious type but I fear suckler herds in the genomic scheme are going to be forced towards A I ! All the bulls in A I have increased in euro star ratings according to agriland ! I can't see how this is accurate! But if it is then I'm suspicious that icbf heads have a personal interest in seeing ai companies reaping huge benefits from the suckler scheme ! More demand on straws of course mean higher prices

Canaryblue

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/gene-ireland-beef-bulls-increase-euro-star-ratings-icbf/

The Autumn 2015 Gene Ireland Beef bulls have seen an increase to their €uro values and reliability figures since the publishing of the December 2015 evaluations, it said.

The average increase in €uro value for the group is €10 and eight of the bulls in the catalogue now have an index of €140 or higher.

Is this the info you're referring to? Just a correction its all the Autumn 2015 Gene Ireland bulls that have increased not all AI bulls.
Still does raise a question of whether ICBF are giving preferential treatment to the Gene Ireland bulls, really we won't know for another while as the majority of these bulls don't have any calves off them yet.

dh1985

greenpetrol wrote: »

I may be a suspicious type but I fear suckler herds in the genomic scheme are going to be forced towards A I ! All the bulls in A I have increased in euro star ratings according to agriland ! I can't see how this is accurate! But if it is then I'm suspicious that icbf heads have a personal interest in seeing ai companies reaping huge benefits from the suckler scheme ! More demand on straws of course mean higher prices

Only speaking from what I see but I would share your concern about icbf pushing suckler farmers in the direction of AI. In the most recent report from the ICBF that landed at our house they had listed the five most important key performance indicators for suckler herds with relation to calving. The first been calving interval,, 2x relating to mortality, 1 relating to calves per cow per year and the last in regards to percentage of heifers in herd calved at two year old. The first four are understandable but I fail to see what relevance the percentage of heifers calving at two year old has to do with the output of a suckler herd and certainly fail to see how it would be classed as one of the top five KPI's for a suckler farmer.
The second page of the report went on to state in an additional performance indicator that the top 15% of suckler farmers use 80% AI. I fail to see how they determine these top 15% of farmers without illustrating any metrics with relation to outputs from said herds.
Surely an output from the herd with regards profit/HA or output KG/HA would be a more relevant KPI than displaying the calving age of heifers etc. I know the report is with regards calving but how can one extrapolate information from such a report whilst only getting one aspect of of running a suckler herd
Maybe I am picking holes in their data too much but I would have thought that achieving the highest live weight gain/performance/quality without adversely effecting calving interval to be the number one metric that all suckler farmers should be aiming for and fail to see why one simplistic report outlining all relevant metrics cannot be provided.
I just feel it's a little tainted proving information like the 80% AI usage without providing the back up data alongside it. One would look at a report like this and think to themselves "hey, I need to be using AI more"

tanko

Ai companies control 45% of the shares in ICBF, Progressive Genetics control 26% alone and AI companies have 6 out of 17 seats on the board of directors.
This says a lot i think.
I'd be wary of using Gene Ireland Bulls, high eurostar values at very low reliability mean feck all. Gene Ireland Bulls are usually given low calving difficulty figures which often rise a lot when their calves start arriving.

dh1985

http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/CH2159.jpg
photo of 5 star bull for maternal & terminal. Maybe the photo doesn't do him justice.

tanko

dh1985 wrote: »

http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/CH2159.jpg
photo of 5 star bull for maternal & terminal. Maybe the photo doesn't do him justice.

His eurostar figures mean very little at such low reliability.
Is there much point in buying straws of Gene Ireland Bulls for €5 when you can buy straws of proven bulls with high reliability figures for €8-€12.

dh1985

tanko wrote: »

His eurostar figures mean very little at such low reliability.
Is there much point in buying straws of Gene Ireland Bulls for €5 when you can buy straws of proven bulls with high reliability figures for €8-€12.

To be honest tanko I don't think I would use his straws if I got them for nothing. I just don't know how a bull that looks so poor be five stars for terminal, including 5 star for carcass weight and conformation when he doesn't possess those attributes himself. Low reliabilty or not

Farrell

dh1985 wrote: »

To be honest tanko I don't think I would use his straws if I got them for nothing. I just don't know how a bull that looks so poor be five stars for terminal, including 5 star for carcass weight and conformation when he doesn't possess those attributes himself. Low reliabilty or not

Agree but seems to be lots in same boat, sure look at B digger, think calving difficulty is killing anything over 10%, no matter how good the offspring

dh1985

Farrell wrote: »

Agree but seems to be lots in same boat, sure look at B digger, think calving difficulty is killing anything over 10%, no matter how good the offspring

If the aim is to improve the quality of progeny then i wonder are the figures counter productive in some sense. Nonetheless you can get good bulls with 6-8% calving difficulty. Don't want busting the ass off the cow either

Canaryblue

Farrell wrote: »

Agree but seems to be lots in same boat, sure look at B digger, think calving difficulty is killing anything over 10%, no matter how good the offspring

If you were buying a stockbull would you buy one with over 10% calving difficulty?

patsy_mccabe

The Eurostar ratings are about profit not performance, so how can you tell by looking at a bull if it is profitable or not. Often it's the bull that looks great that is the least profitable of all, hard calving, poor docility, no milk etc.
Without a doubt, my worst looking cow at home is my most profitable. She's 10 years old,calved as a 2 year old and has a calf every year.

Bellview

dh1985 wrote: »

http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/CH2159.jpg
photo of 5 star bull for maternal & terminal. Maybe the photo doesn't do him justice.

The liss Angus bull is not too pretty either... Although at least the liss bull was washed...was this boy too lively to wash and clip

blue5000

Canaryblue wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/gene-ireland-beef-bulls-increase-euro-star-ratings-icbf/



Is this the info you're referring to? Just a correction its all the Autumn 2015 Gene Ireland bulls that have increased not all AI bulls.
Still does raise a question of whether ICBF are giving preferential treatment to the Gene Ireland bulls, really we won't know for another while as the majority of these bulls don't have any calves off them yet.

Looking at this they'll be encouraged anyway,

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/beef-farmers-know-what-they-want-in-bulls-icbf-top-bull-searches-revealed/

total beef searches up by approx half a million from 2014 to 2015. I wonder what it actually translates to for calves actually born?

Few lads in our DG are fair p1ssed off with cows descended from unproven ai bulls. But if nobody uses them there won't be any data from them.

Bellview

Any scheme where a breeder has to pay 200 euro to enter and then icbf claim these are the elite cattle in the country has the probability of being not correct. It is very probable that these bulls will never be the best in ai or even as stock bull.... Goulding eamon ian Angus in this scheme and has a calving diff up with char..

bogman_bass

tanko wrote: »

Ai companies control 45% of the shares in ICBF, Progressive Genetics control 26% alone and AI companies have 6 out of 17 seats on the board of directors.
This says a lot i think.

It was a lot easier for AI companies when they were able to sell a bull based on a good photo rather than worryin g abiut his figures moving up or down. I don't think your theory holds much weight

bogman_bass

dh1985 wrote: »

Only speaking from what I see but I would share your concern about icbf pushing suckler farmers in the direction of AI. In the most recent report from the ICBF that landed at our house they had listed the five most important key performance indicators for suckler herds with relation to calving. The first been calving interval,, 2x relating to mortality, 1 relating to calves per cow per year and the last in regards to percentage of heifers in herd calved at two year old. The first four are understandable but I fail to see what relevance the percentage of heifers calving at two year old has to do with the output of a suckler herd and certainly fail to see how it would be classed as one of the top five KPI's for a suckler farmer.
The second page of the report went on to state in an additional performance indicator that the top 15% of suckler farmers use 80% AI. I fail to see how they determine these top 15% of farmers without illustrating any metrics with relation to outputs from said herds.
Surely an output from the herd with regards profit/HA or output KG/HA would be a more relevant KPI than displaying the calving age of heifers etc. I know the report is with regards calving but how can one extrapolate information from such a report whilst only getting one aspect of of running a suckler herd
Maybe I am picking holes in their data too much but I would have thought that achieving the highest live weight gain/performance/quality without adversely effecting calving interval to be the number one metric that all suckler farmers should be aiming for and fail to see why one simplistic report outlining all relevant metrics cannot be provided.
I just feel it's a little tainted proving information like the 80% AI usage without providing the back up data alongside it. One would look at a report like this and think to themselves "hey, I need to be using AI more"

Surely age of first calving is one of the most important metrics for profit?

Every month extra that you are waiting for a heifer to calve is money down the drain.

Miname

Canaryblue wrote: »

If you were buying a stockbull would you buy one with over 10% calving difficulty?

Yes I would and my current Charolais was 11.6 when I bought him he's now at 9. If you want the real good calves you wouldn't want to be afraid of a calving jack.

dh1985

bogman_bass wrote: »

Surely age of first calving is one of the most important metrics for profit?

Every month extra that you are waiting for a heifer to calve is money down the drain.

It doesnt cost alot to hold a heifer for an extra 6 months to give her a bit of age. Less than 200e.
Over the lifetime of a cow this is small. One avoidable c section will cost you that.
Two year old calving works fine for dairy but the cows are calving greyhounds and the cull cow price is a side issue.

patsy_mccabe

Miname wrote: »

Yes I would and my current Charolais was 11.6 when I bought him he's now at 9. If you want the real good calves you wouldn't want to be afraid of a calving jack.

To me a 'real good calf' is a live one.:D

ganmo

dh1985 wrote: »

It doesnt cost alot to hold a heifer for an extra 6 months to give her a bit of age. Less than 200e.
Over the lifetime of a cow this is small. One avoidable c section will cost you that.
Two year old calving works fine for dairy but the cows are calving greyhounds and the cull cow price is a side issue.

And then that 6 months makes a mess of your calving pattern so you end up letting her slip another 6 months.

manjou

dh1985 wrote: »

It doesnt cost alot to hold a heifer for an extra 6 months to give her a bit of age. Less than 200e.
Over the lifetime of a cow this is small. One avoidable c section will cost you that.
Two year old calving works fine for dairy but the cows are calving greyhounds and the cull cow price is a side issue.

Calve all heifers at 2 and any heifer that does not go in calf at 15 16 months is culled and cows are all over 700 kg when culled and sold through mart and no feeding in them.

blue5000

manjou wrote: »

Calve all heifers at 2 and any heifer that does not go in calf at 15 16 months is culled and cows are all over 700 kg when culled and sold through mart and no feeding in them.

What breed are the cows?

I'll have a few blonde x aa 3 yo heifers calving this spring, let's just say tagging a calf will be 'interesting'. Sorted a few springers out yesterday, and one of them cleared a 4ft gate to get back to where she was.

bogman_bass

dh1985 wrote: »

It doesnt cost alot to hold a heifer for an extra 6 months to give her a bit of age. Less than 200e.
Over the lifetime of a cow this is small. One avoidable c section will cost you that.
Two year old calving works fine for dairy but the cows are calving greyhounds and the cull cow price is a side issue.

So you hold onto her. and if she turns out to be not in calf then she is over 30 months and you lose money that way too

Even if you put her in calf to a jersey at 2 year old she has a calf worth 300 euro at weaning that has her making 300 more than waiting for her to calve at 3 yo. Plus the fact that when she calves at 3 year old she has a calf under her belt at that stage so is better fit to calve her 3 year old calf IYKWIM.

Avoid the c-section by using an angus not by feeding her for another 6 months or a year

Nettleman

tanko wrote: »

Ai companies control 45% of the shares in ICBF, Progressive Genetics control 26% alone and AI companies have 6 out of 17 seats on the board of directors.
This says a lot i think.
I'd be wary of using Gene Ireland Bulls, high eurostar values at very low reliability mean feck all. Gene Ireland Bulls are usually given low calving difficulty figures which often rise a lot when their calves start arriving.

What i find interesting is that SI2152 has been added to the Progressive Simmental list for 2016 (online catelogue) and he is on the GI list as well. How does that make any sence? the SI maternal proven Sires selection from progressive is very poor imho, but trying to improve it by adding a gene ireland bull is pointless. AI companies should be providing proven bulls, with one or two test sires (if farmer chooses to do that) but adding GIbulls with low reliability is not the way to address thier poor maternal PROVEN bull selection. Get some decent proven bull for god sake and dont be using farmers to support GI testing

bogman_bass

Nettleman wrote: »

What i find interesting is that SI2152 has been added to the Progressive Simmental list for 2016 (online catelogue) and he is on the GI list as well. How does that make any sence? the SI maternal proven Sires selection from progressive is very poor imho, but trying to improve it by adding a gene ireland bull is pointless. AI companies should be providing proven bulls, with one or two test sires (if farmer chooses to do that) but adding GIbulls with low reliability is not the way to address thier poor maternal PROVEN bull selection. Get some decent proven bull for god sake and dont be using farmers to support GI testing

how do they get to be proven if they dont go out as a test bull first?

Nettleman

bogman_bass wrote: »

how do they get to be proven if they dont go out as a test bull first?

There are plenty of proven bulls in the country and in uk with much higher ratings and reliability- go and buy them.
If farmers are to be used as ginnypigs for testing GI bulls, then they can contact Gene Ireland themselves or use Test Sires from the catelogue, but the highest maternal rating € value in the Simmental section is this GI bull. SI2152-wheres the sence in that?

bogman_bass

Nettleman wrote: »

There are plenty of proven bulls in the country and in uk with much higher ratings and reliability- go and buy them.
If farmers are to be used as ginnypigs for testing GI bulls, then they can contact Gene Ireland themselves or use Test Sires from the catelogue, but the highest maternal rating € value in the Simmental section is this GI bull. SI2152-wheres the sence in that?

you mean stock bulls? You cant buy a bull that's been running with cows and then stick him in AI

croot

I bought 20 straws off 4 different bulls (and breeds) from Gene Ireland last year and have used 2/3 of them at this stage. The first one calves in Feb so I'll see how they go.

I know guys want to use all 5* bulls and while these bulls will fluctuate I think they are worth a try as they could be just as good as what already available in AI and a lot better than most stock bulls. If you don't test them you could be missing out on great genetics. Too small a pool of "proven" bulls will lead to a very narrow gene pool.

"Farmers using AI will be expected to select 80% 4 or 5 star bulls from 30th June 2016."

The gene Ireland bulls are all 4 and 5 so that condition is met

In 2018, 20% of the 2014 reference animals and 50% in 2019 must be 4 or 5 star on the replacement index at time of purchase or at genotyping.

I am over this already so I think GI bulls are worth a shot for a year and if the calves are unsuitable for breeding then sell them.

On the age of first calving I mostly calve heifers at 2 yrs old to an AA bull and while they need more looking after they usually work out ok. Because I split calve in Spring/Autumn any heifer not big enough to calve at 2 will calf at 2 and a half instead.

Nettleman

bogman_bass wrote: »

you mean stock bulls? You cant buy a bull that's been running with cows and then stick him in AI

AI companies are paid to provide us with a service, so let them do it. Otherwise scrap the AI companies, and let us all just buy test sires from GI and play russian roulette with our cows.

bogman_bass

Nettleman wrote: »

AI companies are paid to provide us with a service, so let them do it. Otherwise scrap the AI companies, and let us all just buy test sires from GI and play russian roulette with our cows.

But a bull that runs with cows is A) a disease risk and unlikely to jump for collection with an AV

Nettleman

bogman_bass wrote: »

But a bull that runs with cows is A) a disease risk and unlikely to jump for collection with an AV

Bogman- please read what i said. I never mentioned Stock bulls. There are bulls/Sires in the western world with high reliability and high scores on maternal traits. btw, i don't want to seem harsh on Progressive, Dovea selection is far from proven either. This would also give spread to the bloodlines as someone else pointed out.

bogman_bass

Nettleman wrote: »

Bogman- please read what i said. I never mentioned Stock bulls. There are bulls/Sires in the western world with high reliability and high scores on maternal traits. btw, i don't want to seem harsh on Progressive, Dovea selection is far from proven either. This would also give spread to the bloodlines as someone else pointed out.

So are you talking about buying straws from foreign AI Companys (The Irish AI companies are doing that already) or trying to buy an older bull from another AI company?

ellewood

dh1985 wrote: »

http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/CH2159.jpg
photo of 5 star bull for maternal & terminal. Maybe the photo doesn't do him justice.

I'd have no problem using that bull on looks alone but his breeding is not half bad either (only problem I see is there's going to b a lot of bulls wit digger bloodlines with lads following stars) he is also 5* across ALL breeds for both Mat + Ter v low Rel alright so if ya belive in stars geomics etc he can't breed bad stock

Some lads want powerful looking bulls with stars and easy calving - not that easy to get then some lads still wouldn't be happy with that either if u could get it - there's no pleasing some lads

Nettleman

bogman_bass wrote: »

So are you talking about buying straws from foreign AI Companys (The Irish AI companies are doing that already) or trying to buy an older bull from another AI company?

I am talking/ (being critical) of the scarce choice of PROVEN SI Sires with high reliability and high maternal scores being provided by mainstream AI companies, and making the point that one company has added a GI Sire to its selection instead of what farmers (like me, or maybe just me !) want which is High reliability high maternal PROVEN contenantal Semen for our herd. How they fix that is a matter for them to sort out, otherwise I will just source straws out of uk myself, and setup my own AI company for similiar minded farmers to use. to a lesser extent, theres not alot of high reliability AI AA sires in the beef catalogue either

tanko

In the past there have been all sorts of Bulls in irish Ai stations ranging from rubbish to excellent Bulls and I've no doubt this will continue in the future. Trying to pick the right ones is the hard part.
Ai companies are in the business of selling straws, they have told farmers stuff about Bulls which turned out to be pure lies once the calves starting arriving and went on to become cows. They all do it to varying degrees. I'm fattening three young cows of Nesquick (NSQ) here at the minute. He was supposed to be a good bull to breed replacements off but cows off him turned out to be the craziest yokes I've ever seen and they have frig all milk also. Good maternal bull my arse.
Hopefully things will improve in the future but I don't think its a good idea for the companies selling the straws to also be in control of compiling the stats for the same Bulls. Surely there's a conflict of interest there.

Canaryblue

Nettleman wrote: »

I am talking/ (being critical) of the scarce choice of PROVEN SI Sires with high reliability and high maternal scores being provided by mainstream AI companies, and making the point that one company has added a GI Sire to its selection instead of what farmers (like me, or maybe just me !) want which is High reliability high maternal PROVEN contenantal Semen for our herd. How they fix that is a matter for them to sort out, otherwise I will just source straws out of uk myself, and setup my own AI company for similiar minded farmers to use. to a lesser extent, theres not alot of high reliability AI AA sires in the beef catalogue either

Please do set up your own AI company! Personally don't agree with a lot of what you're saying but you have me intrigued about what bulls you might bring in.

Nettleman

Canaryblue wrote: »

Please do set up your own AI company! Personally don't agree with a lot of what you're saying but you have me intrigued about what bulls you might bring in.

Thanks Canary, but can i ask you what part you disagree with?. Do you believe that our main AI companies are offering Beef farmers high reliability high maternal Simmental Sires?

Canaryblue

Nettleman wrote: »

Thanks Canary, but can i ask you what part you disagree with?. Do you believe that our main AI companies are offering Beef farmers high reliability high maternal Simmental Sires?

No they've all got a terrible selection at the moment, which really isn't doing the Simmental breed justice. What I'm not sure I agree with is your constant use of high reliability, is it high reliability you want on the ICBF system or the english ebv system or perhaps a bull that came through the Danish testing stations?

Its not easy to find these high reliability maternal bulls, as a bull needs to be in operation for years before his daughters will be born, grow up calve, rear a calf and go back in calf again.

Nettleman

Canaryblue wrote: »

No they've all got a terrible selection at the moment, which really isn't doing the Simmental breed justice. What I'm not sure I agree with is your constant use of high reliability, is it high reliability you want on the ICBF system or the english ebv system or perhaps a bull that came through the Danish testing stations?

Its not easy to find these high reliability maternal bulls, as a bull needs to be in operation for years before his daughters will be born, grow up calve, rear a calf and go back in calf again.

I dont want to take this thread too much off track as its about the GI ratings, and the GI bull SI2152 being added-However i would be happy with records from say 200+ progeny or data records on each trait, and we calved nearly 1m beef calves last year, thats not alot of progeny data. AI usage of that 1m is very low, but i think the poor selection available is part of the reason AI usage is so low.

bogman_bass

Nettleman wrote: »

I am talking/ (being critical) of the scarce choice of PROVEN SI Sires with high reliability and high maternal scores being provided by mainstream AI companies, and making the point that one company has added a GI Sire to its selection instead of what farmers (like me, or maybe just me !) want which is High reliability high maternal PROVEN contenantal Semen for our herd. How they fix that is a matter for them to sort out, otherwise I will just source straws out of uk myself, and setup my own AI company for similiar minded farmers to use. to a lesser extent, theres not alot of high reliability AI AA sires in the beef catalogue either

But my point is that the only way you get a proven bull is to get him young and get straws used.

The fact that AI sires figures are dropping is proof that the AI companies have no input into how those figures are compiled and presented.

Manys a man has done what you spoke of and imported straws themselves but many of them ended up with their fingers burned. Everybody thinks they know more than the companies that have been at it for years but when they actually put their money where their mouth is they find that its not as easy as they think

manjou

blue5000 wrote: »

What breed are the cows?

I'll have a few blonde x aa 3 yo heifers calving this spring, let's just say tagging a calf will be 'interesting'. Sorted a few springers out yesterday, and one of them cleared a 4ft gate to get back to where she was.

simmental and simmental x angus put back to angus bull. Interestingly the angus bull jumped 25 points in dec valuations and now is 5 stars for all within and outside breed.

patsy_mccabe

To be fair NCBC did have to deal with the complete wipe-out of all it's bulls following the IBR outbreak in 2011.
I don't understand why they don't just buy more bulls and cull hard then for the first proven traits like calving ease, docility, weaning value etc. The only way I can see them improving is pressure from the farmers themselves. If you keep taking crap from them, they'll keep on supplying it.

Bellview

bogman_bass wrote: »

But my point is that the only way you get a proven bull is to get him young and get straws used.

The fact that AI sires figures are dropping is proof that the AI companies have no input into how those figures are compiled and presented.

Manys a man has done what you spoke of and imported straws themselves but many of them ended up with their fingers burned. Everybody thinks they know more than the companies that have been at it for years but when they actually put their money where their mouth is they find that its not as easy as they think

completely agree with above but the issue with the gene Ireland program is that they only select bulls from a small number of breeders who pay 200 euro. As ICBF have every pedigree bull on their system, if they were true to their own metrics they should only buy the top index bulls from the country... not from the few.


the scheme has the right intention but I fear it is poorly executed... bit like the genomics scheme where a farmer can use a Hybrid bull to meet scheme criteria... kind of contradicts the gene ireland program

Canaryblue

For an exercise there I looked up the Charolais and Simmental herdbooks.

For the Charolais I searched for all 2015 born bulls that were in the top 1% of the Terminal Index. The highest bull found was
AUGHNASHEELIN LUKE, he has a Terminal Index of 158 euro. Sire: Tonroe Eminem, MGS: Clyth Diplomat.

For the Simmentals i again searched for 2015 born bulls but this time in the top 1% for Replacement Index. The highest bull found was
CLONAGH GENTLE GIANT, he has a Replacement index of 180 euro. Sire: Kilbride Farm Dragoon 12, MGS: Starline Klassik.

So if the beef herd was to take example from the dairy herd then both of these bulls should be purchased by AI stations or at least Gene Ireland.

Disclaimer: The herdbooks can be awkward and sometimes leave out animals which should appear so there could be animals with better stats the the two mentioned.

bogman_bass

Bellview wrote: »

completely agree with above but the issue with the gene Ireland program is that they only select bulls from a small number of breeders who pay 200 euro. As ICBF have every pedigree bull on their system, if they were true to their own metrics they should only buy the top index bulls from the country... not from the few.


the scheme has the right intention but I fear it is poorly executed... bit like the genomics scheme where a farmer can use a Hybrid bull to meet scheme criteria... kind of contradicts the gene ireland program

I don't disagree with you. Seems to be reinforcing the dominance of the same few herds

tismesoitis

Seems like some on here want the impossible that being proven Bulls without going through the testing phase which is unfortunately not possible! I think that certainly every herd using AI should use at least15 - 20 % test Bulls. It doesn't matter if they are from fovea progressive or gene Ireland. This is the only way to get a good range of well proven Bulls!

Kovu

tismesoitis wrote: »

Seems like some on here want the impossible that being proven Bulls without going through the testing phase which is unfortunately not possible! I think that certainly every herd using AI should use at least15 - 20 % test Bulls. It doesn't matter if they are from fovea progressive or gene Ireland. This is the only way to get a good range of well proven Bulls!

Something like this should have been an option in the BGDP, 50% bulls that are 4/5 stars and maybe 30% of untested/unproven.
Leaving the 20% remainder to any bulls you want to choose which is as it stands now.

tismesoitis

Agree fully Kovu there should be something like that introduced! We have used at least 30% gene Ireland Bulls and find them perfectly good. I think too much emphasis is placed on the photo of a bull. In many cases the bull is photographed at a young age before he fully fills out.

patsy_mccabe

The other thing to consider is the bull may be in his working clothes, straight out of the slatted shed with no meal feeding. No wash, cut and blow dry.

Kovu

tismesoitis wrote: »

Agree fully Kovu there should be something like that introduced! We have used at least 30% gene Ireland Bulls and find them perfectly good. I think too much emphasis is placed on the photo of a bull. In many cases the bull is photographed at a young age before he fully fills out.

That is true, yet I always find myself judging a bull by his photo! It's better now though as usually a few different photos can be found online with a bit of searching. But take Coom Indurain in Dovea at the moment, talk about a shoite photo despite all his stars.
Have never used Gene Ireland bulls but would often fire an unproven or 'new' bull on mature cows. That said though, I can't find any bull I like for a cow tomorrow. Think I'll pray that he has an oldie straw of TZA, loved that bull.

Actually Crossmolina Jupiter looks a good one.....may try him.

tismesoitis

And Patsy not pumped with 15 or so kgs of meal and wobbling like a boar. According to the show judges this is what people want...rubbish in my opinion. If I was buying a bull I would walk past a fat lad.