Flying herd

kevthegaff

A couple of us were talking about it the other day, pros labour, nitrates, less fodder, more time with cows. Cons disease, price fluctuation

Dawggone

kevthegaff wrote: »

A couple of us were talking about it the other day, pros labour, nitrates, less fodder, more time with cows. Cons disease, price fluctuation

I've gone that road...but I'm another year away from full flight, as it were.

When you do your sums on the cost of getting replacements into the parlor, the land taken to produce, and the phuckin down right hassle, it was easy enough to make the decision.

kevthegaff

Dawggone wrote:

When you do your sums on the cost of getting replacements into the parlor, the land taken to produce, and the phuckin down right hassle, it was easy enough to make the decision.

Yep if I want to go up numbers, full time lab our unit required, adds even more expenditure. Gonna fire sale all calves this year and try it for 2 yrs.

Dawggone

kevthegaff wrote: »

Yep if I want to go up numbers, full time lab our unit required, adds even more expenditure. Gonna fire sale all calves this year and try it for 2 yrs.

Mightn't be the best year for selling calves....

mahoney_j

Can understand reasoning behind it but for me the risk from disease would be a massive negative .or if say in December /janurary etc herd had tb reactors and u were restricted from buying in ??

Panch18

kevthegaff wrote: »

A couple of us were talking about it the other day, pros labour, nitrates, less fodder, more time with cows. Cons disease, price fluctuation

have you done the sums against contract rearing?

At least with contract rearing you are getting your own stock back which reduces the disease risk

No doubt there is a lot to be said for it.

freedominacup

Panch18 wrote: »

No doubt there is a lot to be said for it.

But it's based very much on the greater fool theory. i.e. a bigger fool than me is going to rear heifers at a loss continuously so I can make bigger profits.

Dawggone

freedominacup wrote: »

But it's based very much on the greater fool theory. i.e. a bigger fool than me is going to rear heifers at a loss continuously so I can make bigger profits.

Nail. on. the. head.

freedominacup

Dawggone wrote: »

Nail. on. the. head.

And get off you trot down said road. In your defence you seem to have serious problems with sbv

Dawggone

freedominacup wrote: »

And get off you trot down said road. In your defence you seem to have serious problems with svc.

I'll try and play that market for a while and see how things go...

Easy enough to start breeding again as all the facilities will remain in place.

Deepsouthwest

While I can see nothing wrong with it at present prices, circa€1500, how long before dairy heifers will be making €2000? A handy suckler heifer with calf at foot is now making that, and with a better return even in an average milk price yr surely it's only a matter of time that dairy stock will command the same price.
Having said that, I'd have no prob entering a deal with a man that I supply him with x amount of heifers after calving for €1600ish on a yearly basis

atlantic mist

we breed every year always sell a few never below 1600, we dont go to marts and luckily have repeat customers so they know what they are getting.

i think its not unreasonable for a good dairy heifer to be making the 2k consideing youl have her for 8 lactation thats 250 a lactation sure lads are spending more on meal than they are on the animal

kevthegaff

How much does it cost to rear a heifer calf on rented land incl extra lab our?

darragh_haven

atlantic mist wrote: »

we breed every year always sell a few never below 1600, we dont go to marts and luckily have repeat customers so they know what they are getting.

i think its not unreasonable for a good dairy heifer to be making the 2k consideing youl have her for 8 lactation thats 250 a lactation sure lads are spending more on meal than they are on the animal

No way will you get 8 lactations out of animals. One in 10 will give you 8 lactations. I think the average in Ireland is 3 lactations. The best farmers in Ireland probably don't exceed an average of 5 lactations

ganmo

Can I just ask what a flying herd is.

Is it buying in calf heifers every year keeping them until you cull them and selling their calves every year?

I'd assume then you'd be using beef breeding which would bring in 100 quid more than their pure dairy counterparts.

patsy_mccabe

ganmo wrote: »

Can I just ask what a flying herd is..

I was about to ask myself. If cows could fly, eh!!!

ganmo

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I was about to ask myself. If cows could fly, eh!!!

You could have them out grazing today

kevthegaff

ganmo wrote: »

Can I just ask what a flying herd is.

Is it buying in calf heifers every year keeping them until you cull them and selling their calves every year?

I'd assume then you'd be using beef breeding which would bring in 100 quid more than their pure dairy counterparts.

That's it!

djmc

I think it's selling all calves and cull cows and buying in replacement cows or incalf heifers.
The extra costs have to be weighed up against the cost of renting land and cost of rearing stock and extra labour.
Not sure if it would affect entitlements and bfp.

freedominacup

kevthegaff wrote: »

How much does it cost to rear a heifer calf on rented land incl extra lab our?

In old money when we were rearing a good few for sale we would have considered anything less than £1000 a loss and I do mean £'s without much of a labour charge. Add in whatever you think yourself for inflation in the meantime. Vaccination wouldn't have been anymore than lepto at the time for one thing.

kevthegaff

2 yrs money tied up also has to be considered also!

mf240

Im heading done this route. For better or worse.

My main reason is training in heifers on my own is not simple and i cant really afford to get in help.

Im be hoping that there would always be cows available and that while they might be expensove some years they should aveage out ok.

Theres always lads with a few surplus to sell and theres an odd retirement /clearance sale every year too.

djmc

What is the story with stacking entitlements if you drop rented land this year will it be allowed

browned

kevthegaff wrote: »

How much does it cost to rear a heifer calf on rented land incl extra lab our?

Teagasc estimate the cost of rearing a repl to be €1486 including labour and land charge.
Milk repl 58
Conc. 110
Fert. 111
Land 182
Mach hire 15
Silage. 129
Vet Ai 141
Total var. 746

Car/esb/phone 35
Labour. 149
Mach operation 20
Insurance trans. 32
Interest. 34
Depr building. 55
depr Mach. 22
Total fixed. 347
Total costs. 1093
Losses [8%]. 87
Calf cost. 350
Empty heifers. -44
Net costs. €1486

Bass Reeves

The question is when milk prices are high will it be economic to buy heifers and when they are low can you afford to buy them. It will also add a variable cost in to the system replacing a fixed cost at present. This may suit in years of high prices and be an issue in years of low milk prices.

The one known fact is that most farmers in general will not sell there best cows/heifers. In general they will be offloading animals with issue or suspected issue's. In years of low prices they will sell more than years that milk prices are high leading to cows costing a higher average than you antipicate. If a good few farmers try to jump on this system what will the effect of replacement costs be.

You have to access your present cost of rearing replacements, as well you need to quantify the quality of you replacement average number of lactation and expected yield over lifetime in herd. Then factor in what effect a 10% (or maybe higher) drop in yield and as well higher cull cost will effect you system and your cost base. Then factor this effect on you replacements costing 1500, 1600, 1700 euro etc on average.

The other question is are cows/heifers at a lower cost at present due to external factors. These mainly are that farmers entered 2015 with very young average herd ages and with high numbers of young cows because of the abolition of milk quota's. Has this reduce demand for replacements as well as increasing there availability. How would your profitability change with replacements costing 2K+.

If you change system tomorrow it will take 3-4+ years for effect to begin to be seen as at present most herds have a fairly young average age and existing replacement as well as heifers yet to be born will have to come throught the system. If it falls on it face it will take 6-10 years to again get you herd the way you want it.

tomwaterford

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The one known fact is that most farmers in general will not sell there best cows/heifers. In general they will be offloading animals with issue or suspected issue's. In years of low prices they will sell more than years that milk prices are high leading to cows costing a higher average than you antipicate. If a good few farmers try to jump on this system what will the effect of replacement costs be.

This seems to be an an obvious flaw in the system from outside looking in??

Will what you buy be less quality than what you'd breed/rear yourself??

Why go to effort selective breeding/trying to improve your animals to throw it away for questionable short term gains??

I always assumed that people factored in x amount per litre of milk for replacements??

Bass Reeves

browned wrote: »

Teagasc estimate the cost of rearing a repl to be €1486 including labour and land charge.
Milk repl 58
Conc. 110
Fert. 111
Land 182
Mach hire 15
Silage. 129
Vet Ai 141
Total var. 746

Car/esb/phone 35
Labour. 149
Mach operation 20
Insurance trans. 32
Interest. 34
Depr building. 55
depr Mach. 22
Total fixed. 347
Total costs. 1093
Losses [8%]. 87
Calf cost. 350
Empty heifers. -44
Net costs. €1486

They seem to have double costed some costs, Machinery hire, Machinery dep, and machinery operation. As well some costs will still have to be included in overall costs Building depr, Car ESB & Phone, Insurance. They have factored in a calf value of 350 euro as well. Will empty heifers average 44/replacment assuming a cull value of 1K+???

You could more than likely chop 3-500 off these costs

browned

Bass Reeves wrote: »

They seem to have double costed some costs, Machinery hire, Machinery dep, and machinery operation. As well some costs will still have to be included in overall costs Building depr, Car ESB & Phone, Insurance. They have factored in a calf value of 350 euro as well. Will empty heifers average 44/replacment assuming a cull value of 1K+???

You could more than likely chop 3-500 off these costs

I'd be very surprised if you can land a heifer in the parlour for €900. Land charge at 182 could go to 300, labour at 149 sounds modest as well, thats only 20c a day. The machinery only adds up to €57 so not a huge figure.

ganmo

Bass Reeves wrote: »

They seem to have double costed some costs, Machinery hire, Machinery dep, and machinery operation. As well some costs will still have to be included in overall costs Building depr, Car ESB & Phone, Insurance. They have factored in a calf value of 350 euro as well. Will empty heifers average 44/replacment assuming a cull value of 1K+???

You could more than likely chop 3-500 off these costs

But in the flying herd system you'd have a calf too.

Bass Reeves

browned wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if you can land a heifer in the parlour for €900. Land charge at 182 could go to 300, labour at 149 sounds modest as well, thats only 20c a day.

And there might be no land charges or labour charges. The truth about labour charges is will you save this on labour charges.

But having a look at it they are allowing 350 as the value of the heifer at birth. Assuming that you sell a beef breed calf instead will they average 200/head after costs at 10-15 days even allowing for no Friesian bulls. You also have to factor in that if you go a flying heard route a certain amount of replacements will come in calved.

A charge of 87 euro for losses 8% of total cost of a calved heifer seems very high 50% might be a truer reflection. It hard to imagine any saving in overall costs of Machinery and building Depr, as well as Car ESB phone and Transport Insurance. That comes to over 300 euro. I have not even touched land and labour costs.

Bass Reeves

ganmo wrote: »

But in the flying herd system you'd have a calf too.

Some will come in calved, for those that have to calf you will have the risk associated with that as well as calf mortality.

stretch film

Those that are set on the idea do not seem to base their opinions on convenience as much as on financial benefits .
Have the hard to quantify things like herd improvement in production and health been added into the equation properly.

Whats the point in buying some other man's bottom 10% when an ever increasing efficiency will trump increasing numbers no matter how long it takes to get to max nos.

Are the financials that clear cut over contract rearing ?

browned

Bass Reeves wrote: »

And there might be no land charges or labour charges. The truth about labour charges is will you save this on labour charges.

But having a look at it they are allowing 350 as the value of the heifer at birth. Assuming that you sell a beef breed calf instead will they average 200/head after costs at 10-15 days even allowing for no Friesian bulls. You also have to factor in that if you go a flying heard route a certain amount of replacements will come in calved.

A charge of 87 euro for losses 8% of total cost of a calved heifer seems very high 50% might be a truer reflection. It hard to imagine any saving in overall costs of Machinery and building Depr, as well as Car ESB phone and Transport Insurance. That comes to over 300 euro. I have not even touched land and labour costs.

How can there not be a land charge? If you rear heifers on an outfarm and you stop this land becomes available for renting out. If you're rearing the heifers on the milking block the land can then be used to graze cows. This is where the land charge comes into play. You have to include a labour charge as they will have to be dosed, vaccinated, moved to new pasture, fed silage over the winter, etc.

frazzledhome

Contract rearing €850 per animal from weaning to returning at 20-22 mths

Add calf rearing and calf cost

Add vaccinations, Ai etc

Add the cost of this money tied up for so long

Add the easier life with only one group of animals

Add the time saved travelling to look after young stock

Add land rental and nitrated associated with young stock

Add the extra cows (not all cases) that can be milked

Bass Reeves

browned wrote: »

How can there not be a land charge? If you rear heifers on an outfarm and you stop this land becomes available for renting out. If you're rearing the heifers on the milking block the land can then be used to graze cows. This is where the land charge comes into play. You have to include a labour charge as they will have to be dosed, vaccinated, moved to new pasture, fed silage over the winter, etc.

It is about profit and loss. When you start adding costs that do not exist you are double accounting. If you rent land you allow for the cost. If you do not then it is not a cost. For instance if you decide to rent out land rather than rear heifers this may stop you drawing part of you SFP. For that matter should we allow for SFP on rented land.

Costs are costs. It is the same with labour, if you hire in labour you allow for it if not then it is not a cost. If your young lad is being paid for doing the labour will you still have to pay him if he is not doing the rearing.

I gave a figure of 3-500 euro depending on different situations. Profit puts bread on the table. Putting in cost associated with own labour or own land are not allowable for tax, it is only costs that will effect profit that you should allow. You are fooling yourself otherwise.

I agree if it allows you to milk more cows on your milking platform then this is a balancing cost. However if buying in replacements caused a drop in yield then you factor this in as well. Lifestyle choices are another issue. When you get to a certain scale you can make theses. A single farmer milking 80 cows can make totally different lifestyle choices to married lad milking 50.

keep going

lets ramp this up.why not move to system where you make little/ no silage but buy in as you need it-no hassle,no labour,and no financing.take it a step further sell the cows at first of december and buy a herd the second week of febuary.obviously not being serious but you have to accept your are introducing a new set of risks to your business and wouldnt class the cost of heifers as the biggest one.for what its worth i think this is one of those situations where sums tell one thing but common sense tells you another

kevthegaff

frazzledhome wrote: »

Contract rearing €850 per animal from weaning to returning at 20-22 mths

Add calf rearing and calf cost

Add vaccinations, Ai etc

Add the cost of this money tied up for so long

Add the easier life with only one group of animals

Add the time saved travelling to look after young stock

Add land rental and nitrated associated with young stock

Add the extra cows (not all cases) that can be milked

+1

ellewood

frazzledhome wrote: »

Contract rearing €850 per animal from weaning to returning at 20-22 mths

Add calf rearing and calf cost

Add vaccinations, Ai etc

Add the cost of this money tied up for so long

Add the easier life with only one group of animals

Add the time saved travelling to look after young stock

Add land rental and nitrated associated with young stock

Add the extra cows (not all cases) that can be milked

Would agree with all the added above and would add that with contract rearing you are also getting labour included in rearing charge

It also reduced the need for extra sheds/storage if increasing milking herd as the storage used for young stock can be used by cows instead

1 thing tho, from weaning to 22 mths may cost around 700 contract reared??

browned

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is about profit and loss. When you start adding costs that do not exist you are double accounting. If you rent land you allow for the cost. If you do not then it is not a cost. For instance if you decide to rent out land rather than rear heifers this may stop you drawing part of you SFP. For that matter should we allow for SFP on rented land.

Costs are costs. It is the same with labour, if you hire in labour you allow for it if not then it is not a cost. If your young lad is being paid for doing the labour will you still have to pay him if he is not doing the rearing.

I gave a figure of 3-500 euro depending on different situations. Profit puts bread on the table. Putting in cost associated with own labour or own land are not allowable for tax, it is only costs that will effect profit that you should allow. You are fooling yourself otherwise.

I agree if it allows you to milk more cows on your milking platform then this is a balancing cost. However if buying in replacements caused a drop in yield then you factor this in as well. Lifestyle choices are another issue. When you get to a certain scale you can make theses. A single farmer milking 80 cows can make totally different lifestyle choices to married lad milking 50.

Just to clarify the figures I put up are teagasc's figures not my own figures and these figures wasn't made up with a flying herd in mind, they are just to give a rough guide to the costs associated with replacement heifers for farmers.

a farmer with 100acres is given a choice of leasing out his farm for 10 yrs at 250/acre or continuing farming. The leasing out of the farm is giving him a yearly income of €25,000 (tax free?? I'm not fully sure). If his farming practices is not generating (€42,992+) €25,000 plus a basic minimal wage of €17,992 then the farmer is doing a year's works for little reward. Say this farmer makes €25,000 after his year of farming, it's profit no doubt but couldn't he have made the €25,000 by just signing his name in the first place. That's why teagasc include a land charge.

I know if you're hiring someone to do the work it's a direct cost but surely a farmers own time is valued. the point of farming at the end of the day is to derive an income or wage and given that some of our day is devoted to rearing heifers a proportion of our wage should be as well a cost.

freedominacup

Every couple of weeks a livestock truck pulls into a layby a few miles from our yard. Jeeps and trailers from two farms will make a number of trips to the layby. They'll be collecting f1 gilts for two separate pig farms. Both places are running on minimal disease systems. These gilts are born and reared on the supplying farm but I wonder is there a variant of this system which could be developed for dairying.

Bass Reeves

browned wrote: »

Just to clarify the figures I put up are teagasc's figures not my own figures and these figures wasn't made up with a flying herd in mind, they are just to give a rough guide to the costs associated with replacement heifers for farmers.

a farmer with 100 is given a choice of leasing out his farm for 10 yrs at 250/acre or continuing farming. The leasing out of the farm is giving him a yearly income of €25,000 (tax free?? I'm not fully sure). If his farming practices is not generating (€42,992+) €25,000 plus a basic minimal wage of €17,992 then the farmer is doing a year's works for little reward. Say this farmer makes €25,000 after his year of farming, it's profit no doubt but couldn't he have made the €25,000 by just signing his name in the first place. That's why teagasc include a land charge.

I know if you're hiring someone to do the work it's a direct cost but surely a farmers own time is valued. the point of farming at the end of the day is to derive an income or wage and given that some of our day is devoted to rearing heifers a proportion of our wage should be as well a cost.

There are two statements I have come across that I usually take into account when acessing anything. One is from physics and the other is an old saying they are

For each action there is an equal and oposite reaction....... and

The law of unintended conquences.


What you posted up there is very valid but it is based on a lot of assumptions. These assumptions always assume that in 10,15 or 20 years time these assumptions will be exactly the same. Assumptions are also made that after 10-20 years the land and buildings returned will be in exactly the same condition as when you first rented out therefore no capital losses. This would mean that the 25K was true profit.

I think in the race for expansion some farmers failed to account for change that take palces as a system expands. They assumed that labour would always be in place at 10-11/hour and it would be easily available. As an economy expands or contracts labour costs go up or down. Lots of lads presumed that the lad coming in to milk there cows or feed there calves would work as hard as them or have there skill ste as well. They presumed that he would look after there cows or machinery like they would.

The economics work out different it is easy for a lad in Teagasc to give a set of figures but the failure to examine all costs associated with these often set farmers on the wrong road. Totally different costs are in play depend on size and scale of farming. IMO most farmers are able to cope with herds of 70-80 cows with minimal external labour. For most (not all) it may be more viable maximine production and profit ( they are not mutually exclusive) from this. When you go above this different managment skills come into play. For some maximising profit from a 70-100 cow herd may be the optimal lifestyle choice, for others running multiple herds on different farms owned and leased may be the thing to do. For some a 30-50 cow heard may be the most vialbe option.

Those that presume a flying herd is the answer to there rearing costs may be right.If you arew illing to accept a average yield in the low to moderate range and certain disease levels then this may be an option. However you have to remember that we are more than likly at the lower cost level for replacements at present with fairly good quality cows available. In reality most lads should sit down and go through there costs themselves. Your accountant will tell you one thing, teagasc another both may well ( and are likley) to be wrong or not to factor in other events and costs.

I have a huge issue with double costing one side of an equation without looking at the other side. I was only putting in a different set of costs to compare to Teagasc. The truth may lie in the middle or elsewhere. Leaseing is an option however if I was 30 with 100 acres of land owned in one block I be milking cows. If I was 60-70 anf after a lifetime at it and was fiancially secure I consider leaseing most of it and just having enough to keep may mind busy with drystock. Then aagin a 100 acre drystock well set up could be run in 12-30 hours a week. You have to factor in if you dwelling is in or close to the farm yard are you happy with some one else controlling that yard.

Remember !

For each action there is an equal and oposite reaction....... and

The law of unintended conquences.

ganmo

freedominacup wrote: »

Every couple of weeks a livestock truck pulls into a layby a few miles from our yard. Jeeps and trailers from two farms will make a number of trips to the layby. They'll be collecting f1 gilts for two separate pig farms. Both places are running on minimal disease systems. These gilts are born and reared on the supplying farm but I wonder is there a variant of this system which could be developed for dairying.

would that truck be from hermitage? (pig AI company)
they take their bio-security very seriously.

in sheep there would be flocks that buy in all their replacements so there are people(myself included) that sell ewe lambs that get a premium over the weathers

stretch film

freedominacup wrote: »

Every couple of weeks a livestock truck pulls into a layby a few miles from our yard. Jeeps and trailers from two farms will make a number of trips to the layby. They'll be collecting f1 gilts for two separate pig farms. Both places are running on minimal disease systems. These gilts are born and reared on the supplying farm but I wonder is there a variant of this system which could be developed for dairying.

Take what stanflt is doing to progress his herd using the best science/statistics available and compare it to the punt that is the purchase of stock of unknown quality. (Everyone cant buy the best).

If a dairy farmer sees heifer production on an owned outside block as his best option then is there an opening for those that want the flying herd to use his best available genotyped cows (and rollingstock of heifers) to produce their replacement requirements on a contract basis.

Any cows/heifers surplus to the rearers own needs could be bred to specific bulls/breeds at the request of the buyer.

Alot of numbers can be generated when heifere for sale are leaving a heifer calf on the rearers farm

The carrot has to be an agreed premium for the rearer over say the current market price in any given milk price environment and the value the buyer would get in increased genetic gain and consistent health which would cover this premium many times over.

browned

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There are two statements I have come across that I usually take into account when acessing anything. One is from physics and the other is an old saying they are

For each action there is an equal and oposite reaction....... and

The law of unintended conquences.


What you posted up there is very valid but it is based on a lot of assumptions. These assumptions always assume that in 10,15 or 20 years time these assumptions will be exactly the same. Assumptions are also made that after 10-20 years the land and buildings returned will be in exactly the same condition as when you first rented out therefore no capital losses. This would mean that the 25K was true profit.

I think in the race for expansion some farmers failed to account for change that take palces as a system expands. They assumed that labour would always be in place at 10-11/hour and it would be easily available. As an economy expands or contracts labour costs go up or down. Lots of lads presumed that the lad coming in to milk there cows or feed there calves would work as hard as them or have there skill ste as well. They presumed that he would look after there cows or machinery like they would.

The economics work out different it is easy for a lad in Teagasc to give a set of figures but the failure to examine all costs associated with these often set farmers on the wrong road. Totally different costs are in play depend on size and scale of farming. IMO most farmers are able to cope with herds of 70-80 cows with minimal external labour. For most (not all) it may be more viable maximine production and profit ( they are not mutually exclusive) from this. When you go above this different managment skills come into play. For some maximising profit from a 70-100 cow herd may be the optimal lifestyle choice, for others running multiple herds on different farms owned and leased may be the thing to do. For some a 30-50 cow heard may be the most vialbe option.

Those that presume a flying herd is the answer to there rearing costs may be right.If you arew illing to accept a average yield in the low to moderate range and certain disease levels then this may be an option. However you have to remember that we are more than likly at the lower cost level for replacements at present with fairly good quality cows available. In reality most lads should sit down and go through there costs themselves. Your accountant will tell you one thing, teagasc another both may well ( and are likley) to be wrong or not to factor in other events and costs.

I have a huge issue with double costing one side of an equation without looking at the other side. I was only putting in a different set of costs to compare to Teagasc. The truth may lie in the middle or elsewhere. Leaseing is an option however if I was 30 with 100 acres of land owned in one block I be milking cows. If I was 60-70 anf after a lifetime at it and was fiancially secure I consider leaseing most of it and just having enough to keep may mind busy with drystock. Then aagin a 100 acre drystock well set up could be run in 12-30 hours a week. You have to factor in if you dwelling is in or close to the farm yard are you happy with some one else controlling that yard.

Remember !

For each action there is an equal and oposite reaction....... and

The law of unintended conquences.

You can equally say the farm could come back after the lease in better condition and a capital gain to you.

No two farmers will rear their repl for the same costs. Some will be lower than the €14882 and some will be higher. The question that was asked was how much does it cost to rear a repl. Short of me canvassing every single farmer in the country and getting an average I posted a figure which teagasc presented at their openday last summer. It's was an independently obtained figure posted by me to forward the conversation on here. if you are able to rear your replacements for €1,000 a head more power to you. I will leave it at that as it is not a line of conversation which I'm eager to continue with.

Dawggone

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You could more than likely chop 3-500 off these costs

If you can produce replacements for those prices you'd probably make more money than milking them...

It costs me in excess of €1500 per
replacement...
Got offered cows this morning milking 35L and back in calf for €700/hd. These are 1st lactation animals.

Dawggone

freedominacup wrote: »

In old money when we were rearing a good few for sale we would have considered anything less than £1000 a loss and I do mean £'s without much of a labour charge. Add in whatever you think yourself for inflation in the meantime. Vaccination wouldn't have been anymore than lepto at the time for one thing.

Nice earner those days Free!...
But then times have changed since....April'15!

Dawggone

While quotas were in place the rearing of replacements was taken as just another cost/hassle. When major expansion takes place, and I'm one expanding with four years, you soon realize what time/money is wasted on replacements.
Calving ayr here so many bunches of different age/stage animals. Nightmare.



"Fools breed for smart men to buy".

Deepsouthwest

It always amuses me when someone quotes a figure here, especially a Teagasc figure, there's always plenty guys on here ready to pick holes in it.
I was told recently that 45% of dairy heifer calves never make it to their third lactation.
Another interesting one here, was my AI bill here last yr(straws and service) divided by the amount of heifer calves I actually got on the ground was €100.
If someone used a figure like this for AI cost alone before the calf is even born ud think he was crazy.

keep going

Dawggone wrote: »

While quotas were in place the rearing of replacements was taken as just another cost/hassle. When major expansion takes place, and I'm one expanding with four years, you soon realize what time/money is wasted on replacements.
Calving ayr here so many bunches of different age/stage animals. Nightmare.



"Fools breed for smart men to buy".

you know what you ll have if you let a fool breed for you.if you are lucky enough to have somebody to sell you the better stock all the time,you wont have better stock for long.if he dosent sell his better stock you wont have them.if you go to a different supplier every year you wont have better stock.my feeling is your stock is without question your most important asset,thats above land,machinery,buildings etc and your introducing a risk factor to its well being and its improvement.if there was a business such as hermitage pigs in the hiefer game then it would be a different story.i have no problem with contract rearing,in fact i think its win win for the right partners and i have buddy contract rearing for someone and is delighted and he tried all the beef games but gave it up because he could work a calculater.he could tell you the profit he made on every class of animal and will stick with the hiefers because of the consistencey and the lack of risk compared to beef

freedominacup

Dawggone wrote: »

Nice earner those days Free!...
But then times have changed since....April'15!

Not really dawg. Any blip at all would put prices under 1100, add in one on three spins and a mastitis case or one slow to get up and sort herself after calving and the whole thing becomes loss making.

Bass Reeves

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

It always amuses me when someone quotes a figure here, especially a Teagasc figure, there's always plenty guys on here ready to pick holes in it.
I was told recently that 45% of dairy heifer calves never make it to their third lactation.
Another interesting one here, was my AI bill here last yr(straws and service) divided by the amount of heifer calves I actually got on the ground was €100.
If someone used a figure like this for AI cost alone before the calf is even born ud think he was crazy.

If most lads accept Teagasc costing's the majority should give up farming. It back to what if. When people run in one direct walk slowly in the opposite, some of them will catch up with you in a while.

I am not a dairy farmer but any lad that puts his most import assets at risk is not looking at true cost. Expansion at all cost may not leave your operation more profitable. I believe your AI was that and could be higher especially if not using DIY AI. That is only the AI cost. With no quota's and every day a cows slips costs you 7 euro+. If a herd of 70 cows slips a day in a year its a cost of 500 euro. A herd slipping 10 days costs 5K. I know a few very good dairy farmers that use Friesian bulls for breeding replacments not for everyone but works for them.