How to pick a good site for a house

b4bmm

Hello all,

I am wondering how the best way to pick a good site can be achieved. I'm not looking for farmland but for a good site with which to build a house. What are the factors that need to be considered:

Is a square site the best?
How do you know about getting services, water,Elec,gas,Internet onto the site?
Finding out if it is prone to flooding?
Planning permission?
Etc.......

Any other things you can think of to keep in mind?

Thanks

FISMA.

b4bmm wrote: »

Any other things you can think of to keep in mind?

I always talk to some of the auld fellas in the area, they often know more than anyone about the land. More importantly, they are often willing to share, good and bad.

I remember during the heyday of the Celtic Tiger I stopped to chat to an auld fella that was giving out about building McMansions in an area that he knew was prone to flooding, but just happened in a while.

No-one cared. Lots sold, houses built, houses sold, developers gone.

All the engineering reports on drainage came back grand and the construction, was of course cleared.

In the last decade, the water came back and now the houses are gone.

Ask around, best of all it is free of charge.

the_syco

b4bmm wrote: »

Planning permission?

Check what you need before looking at the land. Can spare yourself the dismay.

Some places need you to have some connection (living there, etc), but some don't.

b4bmm

the_syco wrote: »

Check what you need before looking at the land. Can spare yourself the dismay.

Some places need you to have some connection (living there, etc), but some don't.

Check what u need.....?

You mean to check for the local housing need for certain sites in certain areas?
Usually this is included in the description in an adevertisment.

b4bmm

FISMA. wrote: »

I always talk to some of the auld fellas in the area, they often know more than anyone about the land. More importantly, they are often willing to share, good and bad.

I remember during the heyday of the Celtic Tiger I stopped to chat to an auld fella that was giving out about building McMansions in an area that he knew was prone to flooding, but just happened in a while.

No-one cared. Lots sold, houses built, houses sold, developers gone.

All the engineering reports on drainage came back grand and the construction, was of course cleared.

In the last decade, the water came back and now the houses are gone.

Ask around, best of all it is free of charge.

Yes for sure that is good advice.
Easier said than done maybe but definitely something I will keep in mind.

Gumbo

b4bmm wrote: »

Hello all,

I am wondering how the best way to pick a good site can be achieved. I'm not looking for farmland but for a good site with which to build a house. What are the factors that need to be considered:

Is a square site the best?
How do you know about getting services, water,Elec,gas,Internet onto the site?
Finding out if it is prone to flooding?
Planning permission?
Etc.......

Any other things you can think of to keep in mind?

Thanks

What county?

listermint

Being honest OP you need to check the County/counties you are looking to build in. Most if not all of them now have a Local Needs only clause in their planning applications, Its a ridiculous and technically illegal (in the EU) form of control on the planning permissions.

hopefully it can be challenged by someone with means but presently its effectively idiotic as its literally killing communities across the country where new skill sets and people who may work from home and bring life and finance into and area in the form of spending are eliminated.

It was meant to ward of the one of houses and holidays homes but the method is terrible.

Carawaystick

b4bmm wrote: »

Finding out if it is prone to flooding?

I'd look at this now rather than in June say... :rolleyes:

awec

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'd look at this now rather than in June say... :rolleyes:

And be extra careful, just because it hasn't flooded in the past few years doesn't mean it isn't in a dodgy spot.

listermint

As someone says, Higher Ground is the new 'road frontage'

davo10

Op it is not as easy as just finding a field you like and asking the owner to sell. As an earlier poster has alluded to, local development plans have stipulations in them that are often referred to as "bloodline" clauses. In other words, in order to get planning permission you need to show your family connection to the area. This can be gotten around in some cases but where it is adhered to, it tends to be strictly enforced. There is an element of discrimination in this policy as it leaves people moving into an area for the first time at a disadvantage, Christy o'connor Jr brought a case against Galway CoCo to challenge this planning rule but you have to have very, very deep pockets, he wanted to build multiple houses so it was worth the risk.

Effectively op unless you are from the area you want to live in, you will need to buy a site with existing full or outline PP. If no PP exists, buy subject to you getting PP but again this will involve significant architect fees with no guarantee of success.

hurikane

davo10 wrote: »

Op it is not as easy as just finding a field you like and asking the owner to sell. As an earlier poster has alluded to, local development plans have stipulations in them that are often referred to as "bloodline" clauses. In other words, in order to get planning permission you need to show your family connection to the area. This can be gotten around in some cases but where it is adhered to, it tends to be strictly enforced. There is an element of discrimination in this policy as it leaves people moving into an area for the first time at a disadvantage, Christy o'connor Jr brought a case against Galway CoCo to challenge this planning rule but you have to have very, very deep pockets, he wanted to build multiple houses so it was worth the risk.

Effectively op unless you are from the area you want to live in, you will need to buy a site with existing full or outline PP. If no PP exists, buy subject to you getting PP but again this will involve significant architect fees with no guarantee of success.

Didn't Christy get the planning and only take a case when they wouldn't extend the permissiOn after 5 years?

the_syco

b4bmm wrote: »

Check what u need.....?

As said, check if you need to be local, or show some connection to the area. Pointless getting the land, everything needed for the land, only to find out that as you're not a local, the land will stay as land.

As for flood zones, ensure it's not near a marsh. Have heard of people buying a marsh (cheaply, as it's a marsh), draining it, building on it, and then for the water that would goto the marsh just accumulate nearby instead.

Do your homework, as pre-existing planning permission being granted for a house doesn't means jack sheet about it being flood-free, brown envelopes may have passed hands for the area.

davo10

hurikane wrote: »

Didn't Christy get the planning and only take a case when they wouldn't extend the permissiOn after 5 years?

Same rules apply for renewing planning as gaining it in the first place.

hurikane

davo10 wrote: »

Same rules apply for renewing planning as gaining it in the first place.

Yes for renewing but not for extending.

murphaph

Have you considered proximity to schools and so on, or do you want to drive everywhere?

davo10

hurikane wrote: »

Yes for renewing but not for extending.

Is that relevant here? The op is looking for a site, not an existing house.

OfflerCrocGod

It's annoying that it's so hard to build your own house in Ireland, I have the means to do so but I'm convinced that it's a hopeless endeavor as there are very few sites for sale within sensible distance of Dublin with planning permission and the ones that are on sale seem outrageously expensive.

hurikane

davo10 wrote: »

Is that relevant here? The op is looking for a site, not an existing house.

Yes, my comment was in relation to planning permission. Not an existing house.

An extension on an existing granted application, renewing would be renewing lapsed permission and would require a new application.

I'd recommend the OP to engage a local architect that knows the area. They will have a good idea of where is suitable for a site. Architect can identify site and arrange a pre planning meeting with the LA.

Carawaystick

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

It's annoying that it's so hard to build your own house in Ireland, I have the means to do so but I'm convinced that it's a hopeless endeavor as there are very few sites for sale within sensible distance of Dublin with planning permission and the ones that are on sale seem outrageously expensive.

What's hard about buying the site with full planning permission and building a house?
If you have the means to do so?

Or else buy a site far from Dublin which will be cheaper and build a house there.

You seem to want to build a house near Dublin for a price less than the arket expects.

OfflerCrocGod

Carawaystick wrote: »

What's hard about buying the site with full planning permission and building a house?
If you have the means to do so?

Or else buy a site far from Dublin which will be cheaper and build a house there.

You seem to want to build a house near Dublin for a price less than the arket expects.

It seems that a site with planning permission is worth a lot more than a site without. I know planning permission costs but not tens of thousands. The reason their is such a gap appears to be down to the fact that it's a gamble if you get planning permission or not. My issue is that it seems too hard to get planning permission see for example the "local needs" obstacles mentioned above.

All these barriers feed into the housing problems we are currently experiencing. Starting off spending almost €200K on a site which can be in a remote enough location http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/8-the-old-wells-loughshinny-skerries-county-dublin/3179589 or http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/drumanagh-court-kilbush-lane-rush-county-dublin/2224369 makes it hard to see much change out of €450K (both over 200 sqm).

If these barriers where removed I'm sure a lot more people would build their own house and the gap between land with no permission and that with permission would narrow. I guess the reason why the issues aren't tackled is because it would weaken the property market. I feel too much value is being captured by the land.

hurikane

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

If these barriers where removed I'm sure a lot more people would build their own house and the gap between land with no permission and that with permission would narrow. I guess the reason why the issues aren't tackled is because it would weaken the property market. I feel too much value is being captured by the land.

There is no issue here, it's control and regulation. Houses can't be built willy nilly anywhere there is land for a reason. It is controlled to ensure that the development is suitable.

murphaph

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

It seems that a site with planning permission is worth a lot more than a site without. I know planning permission costs but not tens of thousands. The reason their is such a gap appears to be down to the fact that it's a gamble if you get planning permission or not. My issue is that it seems too hard to get planning permission see for example the "local needs" obstacles mentioned above.

All these barriers feed into the housing problems we are currently experiencing. Starting off spending almost €200K on a site which can be in a remote enough location http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/8-the-old-wells-loughshinny-skerries-county-dublin/3179589 or http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/drumanagh-court-kilbush-lane-rush-county-dublin/2224369 makes it hard to see much change out of €450K (both over 200 sqm).

If these barriers where removed I'm sure a lot more people would build their own house and the gap between land with no permission and that with permission would narrow. I guess the reason why the issues aren't tackled is because it would weaken the property market. I feel too much value is being captured by the land.

I believe some lands adjacent to existing towns and villages should be reserved for development by individuals. No residential development should be allowed on any lands outside towns and villages. No more isolated one off building. Farmers would only be able to sell their lands to the local authority at a set rate (say double agricultural market value-can't say fairer than that) or continue farming it, but they'd never again be able to sell off individual plots on corners of fields, only for Johnny Taxpayer to pick up the tab for the roads maintenance etc.

That's the way it is here: it's explicitly illegal to build housing outside towns and villages.

OfflerCrocGod

The "local needs" restrictions are one of the issues, I'm not saying we should be able to build anywhere. I would much rather build closer to or in a town than in the middle of nowhere. Why isn't there a zone around any village/town which is marked for open residential development for all interested parties. Remove the local restrictions and the gamble aspect to purchasing land. Unless you are building higher than 3 stories I see no reason to have significant restrictions, I'm not asking for a free for all.

If the land is close/bordering or in an residential area that is already served then you should not have issues building reasonable housing. Maybe it can be based on how expensive it would be to service the house, that's a far better criteria to my mind.

hurikane

You know that you can buy a site subject to receiving planning permission and eliminating the gamble? Also a site that anyone can buy is going to be a lot more expensive than a site with local needs / section 47.

murphaph

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

The "local needs" restrictions are one of the issues, I'm not saying we should be able to build anywhere. I would much rather build closer to or in a town than in the middle of nowhere. Why isn't there a zone around any village/town which is marked for open residential development for all interested parties. Remove the local restrictions and the gamble aspect to purchasing land. Unless you are building higher than 3 stories I see no reason to have significant restrictions, I'm not asking for a free for all.

If the land is close/bordering or in an residential area that is already served then you should not have issues building reasonable housing. Maybe it can be based on how expensive it would be to service the house, that's a far better criteria to my mind.

Seems reasonable to me. Actually sounds like the setup here in Germany. The "local needs" thing is blatant discrimination. Can't believe that hasn't been overturned by a higher court. But there should be no development whatsoever outside zoned lands around/in existing villages and towns.

Fully serviced sites (often with the services being laid out in advance by the local authority) are often sold here around Berlin. You can also (like we did) buy an infill site in an existing town. We wanted to be within 5 mins walk of the train to Berlin central station, so we had to pay a premium for our site but it's worth every penny IMO.

I only know of one example of serviced sites being sold by the local authority in Ireland: Allenview Heights in Newbridge, Co Kildare. I think a certain proportion of lands should be reserved for future owner occupiers to build their own one off homes on.

deisedays

My advice
If you are going to spend 200k, buy a farm e.g. 20 acres of agricultural land. (approx. 10k per acre)
Get a herd number from the Dept Ag and join the IFA.
Develop a farming enterprise, preferably involving breeding animals (sheep will do just fine)
Make sure your residence at the moment is many miles away from your "farm".
Most county development plans will have to grant you planning permission. You have local needs, and also obligations with regard to animals under your care that necessitate you living on site.
Once your house is built you might be too busy for farming. It's a lot of hassle, after all, for small returns.
You could sell 19 acres @ 10k per acre, and keep an acre around your house.
Problem solved

OfflerCrocGod

Or just move to Germany, which seems to have a somewhat more reasonable system.

Fully serviced sites (often with the services being laid out in advance by the local authority) are often sold here around Berlin. You can also (like we did) buy an infill site in an existing town. We wanted to be within 5 mins walk of the train to Berlin central station, so we had to pay a premium for our site but it's worth every penny IMO.

That's what we need! A well thought out approach to one off house building.

JimmyMW

deisedays wrote: »

My advice
If you are going to spend 200k, buy a farm e.g. 20 acres of agricultural land. (approx. 10k per acre)
Get a herd number from the Dept Ag and join the IFA.
Develop a farming enterprise, preferably involving breeding animals (sheep will do just fine)
Make sure your residence at the moment is many miles away from your "farm".
Most county development plans will have to grant you planning permission. You have local needs, and also obligations with regard to animals under your care that necessitate you living on site.
Once your house is built you might be too busy for farming. It's a lot of hassle, after all, for small returns.
You could sell 19 acres @ 10k per acre, and keep an acre around your house.
Problem solved

To the best of my knowledge your farming would have to make up in excess of 50% of your income in order to be able to do this, this was a loop hole that was closed several years ago as before technically 7 acres would classify you as a farmer and people were doing exactly that to get around planning.

davo10

hurikane wrote: »

You know that you can buy a site subject to receiving planning permission and eliminating the gamble? Also a site that anyone can buy is going to be a lot more expensive than a site with local needs / section 47.

You can, but you have to pay all costs associated with the planning application which can run into thousands in architects fees, ridge profiles, percolation tests etc etc. If the application is unsuccessful then you don't buy the site, but you are significantly out of pocket so it is also a gamble.

Carawaystick

murphaph wrote: »

I believe some lands adjacent to existing towns and villages should be reserved for development by individuals.

Almost all towns and villages have lands zoned for development by individuals. Its just that the individuals who own the land, may not want to sell it to other individuals to develop the land at a price the potential purchaser thinks is appropriate.

OfflerCrocGod complains that a site in Rush town is too remote, and thinks a 225m^2 house with a sea view for 450k is too much. :rolleyes:

hurikane

davo10 wrote: »

You can, but you have to pay all costs associated with the planning application which can run into thousands in architects fees, ridge profiles, percolation tests etc etc. If the application is unsuccessful then you don't buy the site, but you are significantly out of pocket so it is also a gamble.

You're going to have to pay an architect anyway and perform the various tests. The council aren't going to designate land that you can build any house you'd like on and perform percolation tests for you.

davo10

hurikane wrote: »

You're going to have to pay an architect anyway and perform the various tests. The council aren't going to designate land that you can build any house you'd like on and perform percolation tests for you.

I think you are missing the point. You said to buy a site subject to planning takes the"gamble" out of it, but you are still gambling a substantial amount on the planning fees. Yes you spend the fees on a site you know you have a chance of getting planning for, but if you are not from the area and a local development plan (nationwide) obstructs "outsiders" from obtaining planning then the odds are against you.

Also, the house plans for one site may not suit another do it is not a case where a one off fee buys you plans that can be used everywhere, each new site probably requires a new set of house plans.

hurikane

davo10 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point. You said to buy a site subject to planning takes the"gamble" out of it, but you are still gambling a substantial amount on the planning fees. Yes you spend the fees on a site you know you have a chance of getting planning for, but if you are not from the area and a local development plan (nationwide) obstructs "outsiders" from obtaining planning then the odds are against you.

Also, the house plans for one site may not suit another do it is not a case where a one off fee buys you plans that can be used everywhere, each new site probably requires a new set of house plans.

Im not missing the point at all. I've been through this myself. I got an engineer and architect on-board, struck a deal with them 50% up front and 50% when the planning was granted. We identified a couple of potential sites and bought subject to planning. I qualified under local needs and the deal was if we couldn't get planning on the first site we'd try another and keep trying until we got a site that planning was possible on. I had a good local architect and eng and they were confident id get the planning on the first site and I did.

murphaph

Carawaystick wrote: »

Almost all towns and villages have lands zoned for development by individuals. Its just that the individuals who own the land, may not want to sell it to other individuals to develop the land at a price the potential purchaser thinks is appropriate.

The land is either zoned residential or otherwise. It is never reserved for one off development or serviced site provision as I am suggesting. Let's say a farmer owns 5 hectares adjacent to a village. If he wanted to sell those 5 hectares for development, he'd be obliged to let say 50% be sold to the local authority at a set rate (say double agricultural land rate) and the remaining 50% he could sell to a developer at whatever rate he wanted. If he wasn't happy with that, the land would simply remain zoned for agricultural use and nothing would ever be built on it.

Ultimately the developer will offer enough that the farmer accepts he deal and goes ahead.

Or alternatively, zone land around villages for residential development and see what the market does. Here in Germany it is quite common for an earthworks company to buy a couple of hectares and then lay out roads and other services and sell off individual serviced sites to private persons who then go and build there own home. Another model is that a builder will buy a smaller site, say 1 hectare and divide up into 10 sites and sell them off, with the proviso that he gets to build your house, but to your specifications.

The Irish way of either apartments or houses in estates or one off houses in the corners of fields miles from anywhere are not the only ways to build housing!

antoinolachtnai

I think (and it is just an opinion and free advice and should be taken in that spirit) that if a person is not a construction or real estate or finance professional of some sort or don't have some access to special knowledge or are not wealthy they should not buy a site and build their own home. It is just too difficult. There are too many things to learn and understand. The risk is massive. If the person doesn't have special knowledge the cost will inevitably end up much higher than buying something of a similar standard.

b4bmm

So I need to look for the local need provisions. When it comes to planning are there guidelines in the local county council which will limit the type of house you are able to construct?

Any advice on how to find out about getting services to a site and the costs of that?

Is a square site best or does it simple depend on the type of house and garden that you want?

There hasn't really been much discussed apart from housing needs and that the government is a shambles

davo10

First of all, find a site that is for sale, there is no point doing anything else until you find one. When you find one you like, consider the price, ask yourself are you happy with it.

Then make an appointment to see the planner for that area, bring a photo/print out if the type of house you want to build (there are lots of websites with house plans or tak a photo of a house you like and print it). Ask him/her if you are likely to get planning and if the house is acceptable. The planner will straight up tell you if you are wasting your time but will NOT tell you that planning definitely will be granted as this is a casual meeting. All areas have a development plan which favours locals over outsiders, it is not just certain areas with needs.

The planners are there to advise you as well as make the decision, some really appreciate the applicant coming in before the process begins as it saves time, stress and often, disputes. They know the area, what fits and what doesn't and what is likely to pass smoothly. If he/she tells you that you are up against it then you are probably wasting time and money.

hurikane

If you are serious at all about this the first thing you need to do is confirm you qualify for planning in the area - local needs / section 47. Then get yourself a good local architect / agent.

A good agent will provide invaluable advice to an applicant when considering a planning application. They will provide advice on County Development Plan policies, site selection, house design, effluent disposal, water supply and traffic issues. They should also identify the major issues in advance that may relate to a particular site.

Taken from the pre planning section on the WCC website

wicklow.ie/pre-planning

riclad

In most rural area,s it cheaper to buy an old house than buy a site and build a new house.
Even an old house ,will have the connections for esb ,and water .
my friend bought an old house, knocked it down,
built a 3 storey house on the old foundations .
new house is 40 per larger than the old one.5 bedrooms ,3 bathrooms.

hurikane

riclad wrote: »

In most rural area,s it cheaper to buy an old house than buy a site and build a new house.
Even an old house ,will have the connections for esb ,and water .
my friend bought an old house, knocked it down,
built a 3 storey house on the old foundations .
new house is 40 per larger than the old one.5 bedrooms ,3 bathrooms.

Can't see how that is cheaper, did your friend break down the costs for you?

It's a concept know by some as "bungalow gobbling". Often done by people who don't qualify for planning in a certain area. All examples I have seen have worked out a lot more expensive than starting with a green field site.

riclad

OK what i mean its cheaper to buy a small old house,
modernise it or make it larger.
Than to build a new house from scratch ,on a site that does not have esb, or water supplys.

my friend is well off,
he just wanted a site with a few acres of land ,
to build a new house on of his own design,with 5 bedrooms .
so he bought old house ,in a rural area , with 2 acres of land .
not far from athlone.
he was not trying to save money .