Co-opting of Christianity.

Samaris

Firstly, I should state that I know it's my first post in here, and I have really thought hard on whether I should risk offence by posting this question. I'm in the process of questioning beliefs, and I lean personally to a serious lack of faith in the Catholic Church at the very least.

But I do still have respect for the belief system and the Bible, which is why the following has been bugging me.

I've noticed in the last few years a rise in...well, what I can only call rather "cultish" aspects that are not really related that deeply to Christianity. The examples I'm thinking of are faith healing and "Family Tree Masses", where...as I understand it, the purpose is to retroactively convert any members of your family going back as far as you can to Catholicism to "save" them. And also ask forgiveness on their behalf for any sins they might have committed. It seems deeply disrespectful to me, both to those people and ..really, entirely against Christian teachings, which do actually give a choice whether or not to believe. Someone else can't make that decision for you.

Not to mention, I'd be rather irritated to think that my great-great-grandson would stand up in the Church of...Scientology and retroactively sincerely attempt to bind my soul to a thousand year contract. It seems a little nuts, but that is what these groups seem to be trying to do.

I've also noticed in some more rural areas "pray to St. Anthony", "always wear your miraculous medal, it will stand to you if you die wearing it" "you must have this prayer in your car", and a treatment of prayers as almost like spells. "Chant this mantra for this specific outcome".

As I've understood it, prayer should about about communing with God, not some sort of spell of coercion.

I hope I have not caused offence. I'm just interested in the views of those more secure in faith in Christianity, and perhaps the Catholic Church as to what you feel as to these rather odd - and in my own view, unChristian - practices? I hope you'll all take it as the polite opener to discussion that I intend rather than attacking the beliefs of Christianity.

uck51js9zml2yt

Are you referring to Catholicism or Scientology?

lazybones32

Samaris wrote: »

I've noticed in the last few years a rise in...well, what I can only call rather "cultish" aspects that are not really related that deeply to Christianity. The examples I'm thinking of are faith healing and "Family Tree Masses", where...as I understand it, the purpose is to retroactively convert any members of your family going back as far as you can to Catholicism to "save" them. And also ask forgiveness on their behalf for any sins they might have committed. It seems deeply disrespectful to me, both to those people and ..really, entirely against Christian teachings, which do actually give a choice whether or not to believe. Someone else can't make that decision for you.

I don't have a lot of free time now (babysitting at ten) but I'll add more tomorrow - while trying not to bore you.
Faith Healing: One of the charisms of the Holy Spirit is healing and will always be a part of Christian evangelism and ministry. One of Christ's commands was to heal the sick and Christians will continue to do so until it's not needed. This is different to the 'Faith Healers' like that guy in Dublin and John of God in Brazil, or the seventh son of the seventh son, etc. I doubt that these people are charlatans and have some sort of gift, or at least are receiving communications beyond our 5 senses, but that doesn't mean the source of their ability is God.
This is not new but has become more popular and more common in our culture in the last few decades.

The Family Tree Mass is relatively new but has a decent basis and isn't as new-age as you may think. This is a topic I could write a bit about but I want to be concise, so I'll think before writing more.

Samaris wrote: »

Not to mention, I'd be rather irritated to think that my great-great-grandson would stand up in the Church of...Scientology and retroactively sincerely attempt to bind my soul to a thousand year contract. It seems a little nuts, but that is what these groups seem to be trying to do.

What people do to my body or say about me after I die doesn't matter one iota to me. I understand your point but when my soul leaves the body, the decomposing matter that was me becomes the legal property and responsibility of my next of kin. Whether they venerate my bones as those of a saint or use those same bones to beat up priests, it won't matter in the slightest bit. It is no longer mine. What future generations may or may not say about me doesn't concern me either. I've been called a lot worst than a scientologist by the current generation, so I don't worry about future generations.

Samaris wrote: »

I've also noticed in some more rural areas "pray to St. Anthony", "always wear your miraculous medal, it will stand to you if you die wearing it" "you must have this prayer in your car", and a treatment of prayers as almost like spells. "Chant this mantra for this specific outcome".

Tomorrow.

Samaris wrote: »

As I've understood it, prayer should about about communing with God, not some sort of spell of coercion.

It is communication. God isn't a genie to be commanded.

Samaris wrote: »

I hope I have not caused offence. I'm just interested in the views of those more secure in faith in Christianity, and perhaps the Catholic Church as to what you feel as to these rather odd - and in my own view, unChristian - practices? I hope you'll all take it as the polite opener to discussion that I intend rather than attacking the beliefs of Christianity.

This is very offensive!!!

antiskeptic

Samaris wrote: »

Firstly, I should state that I know it's my first post in here, and I have really thought hard on whether I should risk offence by posting this question. I'm in the process of questioning beliefs

If the question doesn't aim to offend then offence shouldn't be taken. You're simply questioning. And in this matter, where the answers to questions involve the most important topic of all: God - does he exist and if so, how to engage ?, then you are entitled to satisfy yourself as to the claims being made.

and I lean personally to a serious lack of faith in the Catholic Church at the very least.

There are many here who share your view but who've no doubt as to the existence of God. For the record, I'd count myself among that number.

But I do still have respect for the belief system and the Bible, which is why the following has been bugging me.

I've noticed in the last few years a rise in...well, what I can only call rather "cultish" aspects that are not really related that deeply to Christianity. The examples I'm thinking of are faith healing and "Family Tree Masses", where...as I understand it, the purpose is to retroactively convert any members of your family going back as far as you can to Catholicism to "save" them. And also ask forgiveness on their behalf for any sins they might have committed. It seems deeply disrespectful to me, both to those people and ..really, entirely against Christian teachings, which do actually give a choice whether or not to believe. Someone else can't make that decision for you.

One of the problems is that the Bible can be interpreted in various ways to include all sorts of views. Whether or not those interpretations are sound interpretations are another matter, but support (even if it's only a word or two yanked out of context) can be found for just about any notion anyone has. That said, supernatural healing has it's biblical place and might very well be alive and kicking today - whatever about the shysters you see on The God Channel who might cause you to suspect otherwise.

Not that this need concern you. You wrote elsewhere about wondering whether God wanted to hear the repetitious apparent babbling of RC prayer (you appear to have plumped for him not rolling that way). Similarly, you could ask whether it matter that others interpret the Bible to support what appears/smells to you to be dodgy practice. Surely the issue is where you are w.r.t. God (if he exists) and what practices you reckon he prescribes that you ought to follow.

I've concluded for myself that much of what you describe is superstitious mumbo jumbo and that God is far too classy for the likes of it.

cattolico

Samaris wrote: »

Firstly, I should state that I know it's my first post in here, and I have really thought hard on whether I should risk offence by posting this question. I'm in the process of questioning beliefs, and I lean personally to a serious lack of faith in the Catholic Church at the very least.

But I do still have respect for the belief system and the Bible, which is why the following has been bugging me.

I've noticed in the last few years a rise in...well, what I can only call rather "cultish" aspects that are not really related that deeply to Christianity. The examples I'm thinking of are faith healing and "Family Tree Masses", where...as I understand it, the purpose is to retroactively convert any members of your family going back as far as you can to Catholicism to "save" them. And also ask forgiveness on their behalf for any sins they might have committed. It seems deeply disrespectful to me, both to those people and ..really, entirely against Christian teachings, which do actually give a choice whether or not to believe. Someone else can't make that decision for you.

Not to mention, I'd be rather irritated to think that my great-great-grandson would stand up in the Church of...Scientology and retroactively sincerely attempt to bind my soul to a thousand year contract. It seems a little nuts, but that is what these groups seem to be trying to do.

I've also noticed in some more rural areas "pray to St. Anthony", "always wear your miraculous medal, it will stand to you if you die wearing it" "you must have this prayer in your car", and a treatment of prayers as almost like spells. "Chant this mantra for this specific outcome".

As I've understood it, prayer should about about communing with God, not some sort of spell of coercion.

I hope I have not caused offence. I'm just interested in the views of those more secure in faith in Christianity, and perhaps the Catholic Church as to what you feel as to these rather odd - and in my own view, unChristian - practices? I hope you'll all take it as the polite opener to discussion that I intend rather than attacking the beliefs of Christianity.

I have no idea where you get those views, I am sure it happens, but its certainly NOT preached or practiced in the Catholic Church.

I know some catholics put a lot of faith in medals and statues, however that is also not the teaching of that church as its semi idolatry.

cabla

OP I'd be in a similar position to you but antiskeptic I think has concluded it well and the position I've taken on it. It's how you interpret it based on the teachings of the Bible and I also believe in researching into that and studying that to give you the best interpretation for you. I think fundamentally it's your personal relationship with God (if you believe) and how you should feel about it. Christianity focuses on the love for people regardless and I think if we practice that you're on the right track. If you don't believe in any of it, it doesn't really matter if people are praying on your soul etc because you don't believe you have one so what does it matter really? If you do believe, surely you'd pray for your soul to go to heaven anyway? Surely people praying for you to go to heaven wouldn't be classes as "un-Christian"?

looksee

cabla wrote: »

If you don't believe in any of it, it doesn't really matter if people are praying on your soul etc because you don't believe you have one so what does it matter really? If you do believe, surely you'd pray for your soul to go to heaven anyway? Surely people praying for you to go to heaven wouldn't be classes as "un-Christian"?

Well no, if you are a Christian you would see it like that, but even Jesus said:

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. Matthew 10:14

he didn't say 'run down the street after them and try and change their mind'

likewise

Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? Matthew 7:3

Which I would think could be translated as 'look to your own faults/ faith/ business before meddling in other peoples'

Manach

Start off by mentioning it was the Church crafted together the NT bible (“Early Church Fathers” a good source on this).

Then to mention the global Church itself is a large tapestry with many different thread of engagement. For me it is the how the cultural aspects have emerged, vis Tolkien, Waugh and Buckley and have not really come across what the OP mentioned. For a friend, it might mean engagement with Youth outreach and the development of Youcat. Other people have differing ways of interacting and internalising their interaction with the Church and there is a long history of such means to engage and humanising this. Given the tremendous culture upheaval over the past generation, such nodal points might act of a support in these times.

cabla

looksee wrote: »

Well no, if you are a Christian you would see it like that, but even Jesus said:



he didn't say 'run down the street after them and try and change their mind'

likewise



Which I would think could be translated as 'look to your own faults/ faith/ business before meddling in other peoples'

Well I'd assume if one was praying for someone else they'd equally be praying for their own soul, faults, weaknesses etc. I don't see it as Un-Christian though to pray for someone else. I'd call praying for bad things and wishing bad things on someone as being un-Christian. I know there's free will and I'm not arguing that nor encouraging people to be forcing beliefs on people but if people are doing it in their mind for someone it's a little different would you not agree?

I understand how people who don't believe may be uncomfortable with someone praying for them but I suppose if they don't believe, should it really matter? There's many ways people may see the light and knowing someone is praying for them they may investigate further into Christianity but they haven't been forced, that's their choice.

Benny_Cake

Of the examples you mention OP, none of these are necessary to being a Catholic. They are largely individual devotional practices that some Catholics take part in but you could be a Catholic in good standing and not involve yourself in any of that, such is my understanding but I'm open to be correction.

I'm no longer Catholic, but the one that really rings a bell for me is the miraculous medal. When I was in primary school there was quite a push for us to have them. From what I remember the priests of the parish had nothing to do with it, it was down to one or two pushy parents, the teachers should have told them to get lost but that's another story.

Samaris

Thanks for your replies, people, it's been interesting to read and think about. Taken a few days to chew it over in my mind enough to write a coherent post though.

cattolico wrote: »

I have no idea where you get those views, I am sure it happens, but its certainly NOT preached or practiced in the Catholic Church.

I know some catholics put a lot of faith in medals and statues, however that is also not the teaching of that church as its semi idolatry.

Ah, I got them through observation of people I know, it generally seems to be more rural regions. I don't know whether I've just become more aware of them recently and they were always there or if there seems to be a rise of them lately. I think I've made it fairly clear in my first post where I stand on them.

lazybones32 wrote: »

The Family Tree Mass is relatively new but has a decent basis and isn't as new-age as you may think. This is a topic I could write a bit about but I want to be concise, so I'll think before writing more.

I would be interested in hearing more about it. The Sacrament of Reconciliation can only be granted when it is asked for by a person sincerely; as far as I know, it can't be ..well, inflicted.

Following up on that..

cabla wrote: »

If you do believe, surely you'd pray for your soul to go to heaven anyway? Surely people praying for you to go to heaven wouldn't be classes as "un-Christian"?

cabla wrote: »

Well I'd assume if one was praying for someone else they'd equally be praying for their own soul, faults, weaknesses etc. I don't see it as Un-Christian though to pray for someone else.

I'm not talking about praying for someone; I'm talking about retroactively "converting" dead people to Christianity. They're not going to be doing any searching into Catholic dogma after that! I grant there's the case of Limbo, where, for instance, unbaptised babies (used to) go under Catholic dogma, which were prayed for. Also an awkward one. But one has to ask forgiveness for their own sins, not someone else's.

lazybones32 wrote: »

What people do to my body or say about me after I die doesn't matter one iota to me. I understand your point but when my soul leaves the body, the decomposing matter that was me becomes the legal property and responsibility of my next of kin. Whether they venerate my bones as those of a saint or use those same bones to beat up priests, it won't matter in the slightest bit. It is no longer mine.

Conversion would be regarding the soul rather than the body, although technically, the resurrection of the body is Catholic dogma. Under the Nicene Creed, which is one of the three infallible professions of faith, "we believe in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting". Not really being bloody-minded on that, it's a bit of a sidetrack, but it's an interesting point!

cabla wrote: »

It is communication. God isn't a genie to be commanded.

Yes and no, in my view. Prayers, rote prayers, aren't really communication, they're a mantra to put one in a frame of mind for receptivity and communication. Look at the Rosary - say it in your mind. I can almost guarentee that you'll find yourself going into a rhythm, based on how you were taught it. "Blessed's the fruit of thywombJEsus" is how it goes in my mind!

But look at the other prayers, the Prayer to St. Anthony for the return of lost things. Prayer to Saint Jude for help/lost causes;

Pray for me who am so miserable; make use, I implore thee, of that particular privilege accorded thee of bringing visible and speedy help where help is almost despaired of. Come to my assistance in this great need, that I may receive the consolations and succor of heaven in all my necessities, tribulations and sufferings, particularly (mention your request), and that I may bless God with thee and all the elect throughout eternity. I promise thee, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, and I will never cease to honor thee as my special and powerful patron, and to do all in my power to encourage devotion to thee. Amen

It's an interesting topic as to whether Christianity IS a monotheistic religion. Many saints have been made into almost mini-deities of lesser causes under the overarching God. Although...I've gone off topic again. Weeell, it's part of the sorta...aspects of Christianity I was talking about. And don't even get me started on placing the statue of the Child of Prague in the garden before a wedding. If that isn't some sort of spell*, I don't know what is.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Similarly, you could ask whether it matter that others interpret the Bible to support what appears/smells to you to be dodgy practice. Surely the issue is where you are w.r.t. God (if he exists) and what practices you reckon he prescribes that you ought to follow.

It's a fair point, yep. I'm partly interested in it, partly a bit "ngh" at some of the more...intense views on it all that I met before making this post.


*Spells don't have to work to still be spells!

tommy2bad

I'm not sure how praying to god to forgive the sins of other people living or dead is the same as retroactively converting them. To me it seems more like asking for forgiveness from God on some one else behalf, an act of christian charity and one we are expected to do. Not quite in the same category as the Mormon practice of baptizing the long dead. Of course Mormons not being strictly a christian faith aren't bound by traditional christian rules let alone RCC rules.

Medals, statues and faith healers are more in the category of folk religion and mostly harmless additions to the core faith. I wouldn't get too worked up about them. As you point out rout prayer is about preparing the mind to receive God, its not payment or a savings account. The prayers to St Anthony (or St Ann if your looking for a man ) are about putting trust in God and seeking his help with your troubles, small troubles being delegated to His civil services not so much because He has one but rather to keep them in the context of being small troubles for the person praying. Not the same as magic spells but I can see how they might be perceived as such by some and especially by someone who isn't familiar with the traditions around the practice.

Of course being a christian is about much more than which tradition or denomination you follow, once you remove the cultural differences, the core faith should be the same.

looksee

Samaris wrote: »

Conversion would be regarding the soul rather than the body, although technically, the resurrection of the body is Catholic dogma. Under the Nicene Creed, which is one of the three infallible professions of faith, "we believe in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting".

The CofE/CofI also have the same Nicene Creed

And don't even get me started on placing the statue of the Child of Prague in the garden before a wedding. If that isn't some sort of spell*, I don't know what is.

Ah this is one that works! All the Child of Pragues put out for a (non-Catholic) wedding and one good, sunny day in a couple of weeks of rain and gloom!!

Mrs OBumble

tommy2bad wrote: »

Medals, statues and faith healers are more in the category of folk religion and mostly harmless additions to the core faith.

I'd agree with you re medals and statues. Not so sure about faith healers, though. Saying that a specific person has healing powers is very different from saying that a statue or medal helps with praying to God.

lazybones32

Samaris wrote: »

I would be interested in hearing more about it. The Sacrament of Reconciliation can only be granted when it is asked for by a person sincerely; as far as I know, it can't be ..well, inflicted.


I'm not talking about praying for someone; I'm talking about retroactively "converting" dead people to Christianity. They're not going to be doing any searching into Catholic dogma after that! I grant there's the case of Limbo, where, for instance, unbaptised babies (used to) go under Catholic dogma, which were prayed for. Also an awkward one. But one has to ask forgiveness for their own sins, not someone else's.




Conversion would be regarding the soul rather than the body, although technically, the resurrection of the body is Catholic dogma. Under the Nicene Creed, which is one of the three infallible professions of faith, "we believe in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting". Not really being bloody-minded on that, it's a bit of a sidetrack, but it's an interesting point!



Pray for me who am so miserable; make use, I implore thee, of that particular privilege accorded thee of bringing visible and speedy help where help is almost despaired of. Come to my assistance in this great need, that I may receive the consolations and succor of heaven in all my necessities, tribulations and sufferings, particularly (mention your request), and that I may bless God with thee and all the elect throughout eternity. I promise thee, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, and I will never cease to honor thee as my special and powerful patron, and to do all in my power to encourage devotion to thee. Amen

It's an interesting topic as to whether Christianity IS a monotheistic religion. Many saints have been made into almost mini-deities of lesser causes under the overarching God. Although...I've gone off topic again. Weeell, it's part of the sorta...aspects of Christianity I was talking about. And don't even get me started on placing the statue of the Child of Prague in the garden before a wedding. If that isn't some sort of spell*, I don't know what is.

I'll reply here in case editing my earlier post is missed.

The family tree/Intergenerational healing Mass is not about converting dead members or signing them up to Catholicism: how did you come to that conclusion?! It is about celebrating a Mass to heal the Family tree, so that all members who are not at peace, may find it and to stop/block any evil or negative effects that have passed down through the family lineage - from internal or external sources.
I don't know when the first FT Mass was celebrated by it seemed to emerge after significant documentation on Family systems highlighted that specific disorders seemed to run in families and that many problems seemed to be inherited, rather than develop. Also, a Dr. Kenneth McCall seems to have been a large figure in this; I think he published a book around 1982 about FT Masses and intergenerational healing, so it must have been around before then.
Dr. Kenneth McCall
Fr. Robert DeGrandis
Fr. Bob Sears S.J.
Google any of these 3 to find a more in-depth explanation than I've supplied.

Again, it isn't about converting anyone who is already dead. The need for conversion ends with death. There is nothing about baptising any adult as Catholic but there may be a recommendation to personally baptise a child who was aborted or miscarried - this is not carried out as part of the Mass but is done at the person's discretion.

You wrote that one has to ask forgiveness for their own sins and not someone else's: Moses interceded for his people when God got angry with them; Lot interceded for some city; Job offered sacrifices in case his children offended God accidentally while celebrating feasts; Jesus interceded that God forgive those who did not know what they were doing.

Graces7

Samaris wrote: »

Thanks for your replies, people, it's been interesting to read and think about. Taken a few days to chew it over in my mind enough to write a coherent post though.



Ah, I got them through observation of people I know, it generally seems to be more rural regions. I don't know whether I've just become more aware of them recently and they were always there or if there seems to be a rise of them lately. I think I've made it fairly clear in my first post where I stand on them.




I would be interested in hearing more about it. The Sacrament of Reconciliation can only be granted when it is asked for by a person sincerely; as far as I know, it can't be ..well, inflicted.

Following up on that..





I'm not talking about praying for someone; I'm talking about retroactively "converting" dead people to Christianity. They're not going to be doing any searching into Catholic dogma after that! I grant there's the case of Limbo, where, for instance, unbaptised babies (used to) go under Catholic dogma, which were prayed for. Also an awkward one. But one has to ask forgiveness for their own sins, not someone else's.




Conversion would be regarding the soul rather than the body, although technically, the resurrection of the body is Catholic dogma. Under the Nicene Creed, which is one of the three infallible professions of faith, "we believe in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting". Not really being bloody-minded on that, it's a bit of a sidetrack, but it's an interesting point!



Yes and no, in my view. Prayers, rote prayers, aren't really communication, they're a mantra to put one in a frame of mind for receptivity and communication. Look at the Rosary - say it in your mind. I can almost guarentee that you'll find yourself going into a rhythm, based on how you were taught it. "Blessed's the fruit of thywombJEsus" is how it goes in my mind!

But look at the other prayers, the Prayer to St. Anthony for the return of lost things. Prayer to Saint Jude for help/lost causes;

Pray for me who am so miserable; make use, I implore thee, of that particular privilege accorded thee of bringing visible and speedy help where help is almost despaired of. Come to my assistance in this great need, that I may receive the consolations and succor of heaven in all my necessities, tribulations and sufferings, particularly (mention your request), and that I may bless God with thee and all the elect throughout eternity. I promise thee, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, and I will never cease to honor thee as my special and powerful patron, and to do all in my power to encourage devotion to thee. Amen

It's an interesting topic as to whether Christianity IS a monotheistic religion. Many saints have been made into almost mini-deities of lesser causes under the overarching God. Although...I've gone off topic again. Weeell, it's part of the sorta...aspects of Christianity I was talking about. And don't even get me started on placing the statue of the Child of Prague in the garden before a wedding. If that isn't some sort of spell*, I don't know what is.


It's a fair point, yep. I'm partly interested in it, partly a bit "ngh" at some of the more...intense views on it all that I met before making this post.


*Spells don't have to work to still be spells!

Forgive my inability to express properly; am very tired and need to sleep bt this caught my eye. You are focussing on things that are not inherent in our faith but are treasured by many. And yes you are judging the folk. Badly seriously judging them! I spend time in the cathedral near me and see old wans going through little rituals with statues. Lighting a candle then climbing the steps and patting and kissing the hand of Jesus. That is their way. it comforts. Who am I to say they are wrong..Took me a long while to see that! Old ladies who can barely walk. Please stop judging how others cope with their lives and focus on the heart of our faith. What you are doing is like sitting in a restaurant watching the table manners of others and criticising them while neglecting the good food on your plate. So what if someone eats with their fingers! And you come across as overthinking also.

looksee

Graces7 wrote: »

Forgive my inability to express properly; am very tired and need to sleep bt this caught my eye. You are focussing on things that are not inherent in our faith but are treasured by many. And yes you are judging the folk. Badly seriously judging them! I spend time in the cathedral near me and see old wans going through little rituals with statues. Lighting a candle then climbing the steps and patting and kissing the hand of Jesus. That is their way. it comforts. Who am I to say they are wrong..Took me a long while to see that! Old ladies who can barely walk. Please stop judging how others cope with their lives and focus on the heart of our faith. What you are doing is like sitting in a restaurant watching the table manners of others and criticising them while neglecting the good food on your plate. So what if someone eats with their fingers! And you come across as overthinking also.

'You come across as overthinking' - the practise of faith is so convoluted that if one is to understand it (the practise, not the faith) then overthinking is essential.

You talk about the ritual of old ladies but look at the detailed ritual of the practise of the faith http://www.theholymass.com/part1.htm and http://www.marypages.com/pray.htm and tell me how anyone is supposed to know what is the heart of your faith and what is empty ritual, or not inherent in your faith? And more importantly, how do the 'old wans' with their 'little rituals' know? And how, while we are talking about manners, does a believer get to be so patronising about old ladies?

Graces7

looksee wrote: »

'You come across as overthinking' - the practise of faith is so convoluted that if one is to understand it (the practise, not the faith) then overthinking is essential.

You talk about the ritual of old ladies but look at the detailed ritual of the practise of the faith http://www.theholymass.com/part1.htm and http://www.marypages.com/pray.htm and tell me how anyone is supposed to know what is the heart of your faith and what is empty ritual, or not inherent in your faith? And more importantly, how do the 'old wans' with their 'little rituals' know? And how, while we are talking about manners, does a believer get to be so patronising about old ladies?

Being a very old lady myself with my own little rituals...nary a word of patronising, Love them dearly.. and re overthinking " except you become as little children..." Thank you for your attack as it grounded me! It was however inappropriate and I wish you peace where there is none. And we have no need to judge and assess the practices of others which was the real point of my post that you totally missed in your attack.In my spiritual direction work I tell folk who overthink to learn to play chess. Whatever be at peace in your faith as i am in mine. Clearly you are not that you misinterpret and attack in this way; praying for you. Over and out from me. Be blessed and at peace.

antiskeptic

Graces7 wrote: »

and re overthinking " except you become as little children..."

Might you be perhaps underthinking:

- in supposing that avoidance of critical consideration is the approach to take in matters as critical as faith.

- in supposing "being as children" means don't critically consider what is posited as the faith (whether in the Bible or elsewhere).

Critical consideration isn't judgmentalism and the Bible doesn't oppose our using our brains in consideration. Test everything, Paul says.

Thank you for your attack as it grounded me! It was however inappropriate and I wish you peace where there is none. And we have no need to judge and assess the practices of others which was the real point of my post that you totally missed in your attack.In my spiritual direction work I tell folk who overthink to learn to play chess. Whatever be at peace in your faith as i am in mine. Clearly you are not that you misinterpret and attack in this way; praying for you. Over and out from me. Be blessed and at peace.

Asking a critical question isn't attacking. Either a satisfactory response comes back in which case the questioner is satisfied and can accept a practice. Or an unsatisfactory response comes back and the questioner knows this isn't the path for him. Without critically considering what and why you are doing what you are doing you become like a child .. in the easily led astray sense.

looksee

Graces7 wrote: »

Being a very old lady myself with my own little rituals...nary a word of patronising, Love them dearly.. and re overthinking " except you become as little children..." Thank you for your attack as it grounded me! It was however inappropriate and I wish you peace where there is none. And we have no need to judge and assess the practices of others which was the real point of my post that you totally missed in your attack.In my spiritual direction work I tell folk who overthink to learn to play chess. Whatever be at peace in your faith as i am in mine. Clearly you are not that you misinterpret and attack in this way; praying for you. Over and out from me. Be blessed and at peace.

Goodness! Not patronising! Right.

Now to get to your post, could you identify my 'attack' please? You told the previous poster that they were focussing on things that are not inherent in the faith (though this is the topic of the thread) and I asked you how one is supposed to know what is inherent and what is not. Which bits of ritual (preparation of the altar for example) are required (by whom?) and which are just notions that people get. You did not answer, though you did go off on a tangent about our relative states of peace.

Would you like to answer the question, and tell me how I and other (yes I could give you a run for your money!) aul wans are supposed to know what is inherent on the faith and what is just a 'little ritual'?

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The OP raises many interesting points and made me realise that in having faith and practicing a religion we are often contradictory.

Family Tree healing is, to me, a load of hogwash that has no place in the Catholic religion. The idea that ALL carry hurt and sin through the generations.

Are you aware of unusual patterns in your family for generations? Very pronounced patterns of evil may indicate the need for healing the family tree. Maybe the oldest sons of the last three generations attempted suicide, or an exceptional number of women in the family became mentally ill, or the youngest daughters for three generations were alcoholic and unfaithful to their husbands. On the other hand, maybe the oldest daughters for four generations became missionaries, or 80% of the men in the family for six generations became outstanding Christian leaders. These patterns are not coincidences.

What nonsense.


After 72 years on this lump of rock I have a deep faith in God, and have grown more spiritual every year. God is important to me but I don't get the rituals that sometimes swamp the ceremonies at the expense of the prayer. I believe God is with us all all the time and yet I contradict this by always wearing a relic for protection and lighting candles as petitions and thanksgiving.

Can we Co-opt the deceased into the faith or a state of grace? Of course not. We can pray for those in purgatory but that's the limit.