Should the minimum age be increased?

TheQuietFella

Owing to the recent amount of deaths on our road particularly amongst
young drivers should the minimum age a driver is permitted behind the wheel
of a car or motorcycle be increased to 21. I personally feel that the youth are
not capable of understanding road safety or even concern for other road users.
I'm sorry for painting everyone with the same brush but the evidence isn't looking good either!

spurious

Just enforcing the laws as they are would have a big effect.

Unaccompanied drivers, display of L or N plates, etc..

pablo128

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Owing to the recent amount of deaths on our road particularly amongst
young drivers should the minimum age a driver is permitted behind the wheel
of a car or motorcycle be increased to 21. I personally feel that the youth are
not capable of understanding road safety or even concern for other road users.
I'm sorry for painting everyone with the same brush but the evidence isn't looking good either!

The answer is to have the Garda Traffic Corps out patrolling the roads. They need to have a visible presence. There is currently an extremely small chance of getting nicked for breaking the rules of the road, and consequently people are not giving a flying fcuk how they drive.

Timooo_23

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Owing to the recent amount of deaths on our road particularly amongst
young drivers should the minimum age a driver is permitted behind the wheel
of a car or motorcycle be increased to 21. I personally feel that the youth are
not capable of understanding road safety or even concern for other road users.
I'm sorry for painting everyone with the same brush but the evidence isn't looking good either!

Or just keep on improving driver training. We went from sending off a form to get whatever licence you want, to a proper driver training program with set lessons and a decent theory test. Not saying we're there yet, far from it. but on the right track. People need to be taught how to deal with poor weather conditions and emergencies such as skids on ice and oil on the roads. Maybe even earlier driver training, not later. The RSA have a mammoth task on their hands to implement it. And with the economy "picking up" again, there'll be more people on the roads, more accidents and more deaths. I find young people can approach changes in road procedure better than some older people.

TheQuietFella

I don't think it is a question of training but one of the Irish mentality!
Are we just to thick to see the wood from the trees or is it the 'it won't
happen to me' attitude? Too many deaths on the roads this month!

LeinsterDub

Roads deaths quite a bit lower this year than last. Something is working. More of the same next year I would think.

pablo128

TheQuietFella wrote: »

I don't think it is a question of training but one of the Irish mentality!
Are we just to thick to see the wood from the trees or is it the 'it won't
happen to me' attitude? Too many deaths on the roads this month!

An elderly man died in an accident over the Christmas. Do we ban over 65s off the road because of it?

Again, enforcement of the current laws would be sufficient.

Timooo_23

TheQuietFella wrote: »

I don't think it is a question of training but one of the Irish mentality!
Are we just to thick to see the wood from the trees or is it the 'it won't
happen to me' attitude? Too many deaths on the roads this month!

Mentality is a massive issue, you see it everywhere here, "sher tis only two pints", "I know where I'm going, no need for indicators", " I'm only going over the road there, sher I don't need any seatbelt" I'd hope that training and education from a young age will show people that a car is a lethal weapon that needs to be treated with respect, but like you said, it's unfortunately not sinking in for a lot of people.

TheQuietFella

pablo128 wrote: »

An elderly man died in an accident over the Christmas. Do we ban over 65s off the road because of it?

Again, enforcement of the current laws would be sufficient.

I accept that in every walk of life there will be fatalities but are today's

youth mature enough to be given the responsibility of a vehicle on Irish roads?

I personally don't think so!

dunworth1

There should be a drivers Ed class in secondary school

Captain Chaos

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Roads deaths quite a bit lower this year than last. Something is working. More of the same next year I would think.

Not will all the deaths over the past 2 weeks. It's one of the worst years since all these new rules came into play. Prior to 2 weeks ago it was the lowest death rate in a good few years.

Captain Chaos

dunworth1 wrote: »

There should be a drivers Ed class in secondary school

It should be part of the leaving cert imo.

TheQuietFella

dunworth1 wrote: »

There should be a drivers Ed class in secondary school

Of all places a subject as important as driving or road safety a school

would be the last place to do it in. I could only imagine the contempt!

Captain Chaos

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Of all places a subject as important as driving or road safety a school

would be the last place to do it in. I could only imagine the contempt!

Theory, start the theory in school.

Some schools in the UK do lessons for 4th year students as part of the school year.

In the US it's common place, most can drive when the finish school granted they are only automatics but still.

trixychic

I do think there are an awful lot of the elder generation needing to be re-tested too. Grandad in law got his license renewed cause he passed the medical!!!???

That man shouldn't be on the roads. There are ppl on the roads at all points of life who shouldn't be. I don't know if I would focus just on he youth.

FIL US another dangerous one on the roads. So many rules have changed since ppl first got their licenses 40-50 yrs ago.

I would want to bring in that you must resit the theory test and a driving test every 20-30 yrs so as we can be kept up to date and to make sure ppl can still drive safely.

challengemaster

Captain Chaos wrote: »

In the US it's common place, most can drive when the finish school granted they are only automatics but still.

I'm really not sure you want to start modelling learning to drive on the US system. Particularly where safety is concerned.

Gatling

challengemaster wrote: »

I'm really not sure you want to start modelling learning to drive on the US system. Particularly where safety is concerned.

I know transition year here some Schools do a driving course with 12 lessons included

spurious

Some Leaving Cert. Applied students do the driving test as their Personal Task. Win win as it counts for their exam grades too.

TheQuietFella

Gatling wrote: »

I know transition year here some Schools do a driving course with 12 lessons included

I think the point is being missed here! It is not a question of driving lessons

but the question of maturity on the roads. Do the youth of today have the

common sense or maturity to drive a car?

dunworth1

TheQuietFella wrote:

Of all places a subject as important as driving or road safety a school

TheQuietFella wrote:

would be the last place to do it in. I could only imagine the contempt!

That makes no sense rather than educate you'd rather just ban young people.

Education is the key to reducing accidents.

Banning would only increase the amount of young people driving illegally on the road

trixychic

TheQuietFella wrote: »

I think the point is being missed here! It is not a question of driving lessons

but the question of maturity on the roads. Do the youth of today have the

common sense or maturity to drive a car?

It just depends on the kids.

pudzey101

as said above completly agree that if we were to up the driving age to say 18 or 21 would we have to lower the age for older members 70 and over ?

LeinsterDub

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Not will all the deaths over the past 2 weeks. It's one of the worst years since all these new rules came into play. Prior to 2 weeks ago it was the lowest death rate in a good few years.

Ags disagree http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=10816&Lang=1

laoch na mona

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Do the youth of today have the

common sense or maturity to drive a car?

yes, go troll somewhere else

kirving

Agreed, the standard of driving in the US is absolutely terrible. Granted the roads are busier, but zero lane discipline, no braking distance left, undertaking all over the place, everyone texting, etc. Not a standard we should be copying.

However, this is all down to education, and not age. Instilling all aspects of road safety in younger people is key, which can be done though education other than the generic "speed kills" rubbish.

Despite recent improvements with the minimum 12 lessons,the driving test is still a joke. Tipping around in third gear, trying to accentuate neck movements to demonstrate your observation is ridiculous. No night driving, no motorways, etc.

gctest50

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Theory, start the theory in school.

Some schools in the UK do lessons for 4th year students as part of the school year.

In the US it's common place, most can drive when the finish school granted they are only automatics but still.

not always

Squidgy Black

Between the theory test and the 12 EDT lessons and a decent enough driving test, I think there's enough safe guards there to teach young people how to drive safely.

I'd like to see a lot of older drivers on the road go back and sit their driving test and see how they do, the lack of indicators and lane jumping is abysmal.

trixychic

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

I'd like to see a lot of older drivers on the road go back and sit their driving test and see how they do, the lack of indicators and lane jumping is abysmal.

Couldn't agree more.

TheQuietFella

dunworth1 wrote: »

That makes no sense rather than educate you'd rather just ban young people.

Education is the key to reducing accidents.

Banning would only increase the amount of young people driving illegally on the road

I didn't suggest banning anyone but to reduce the age allowed to get behind

the wheel of a car. It's against the law to serve alcohol to children below the

age of eighteen but yet we allow them behind the wheel of a car from the

age of 16 under parental supervision! Children I can only assume get

educated early by the driving habits of their parents or peers.

dunworth1

TheQuietFella wrote:

I didn't suggest banning anyone but to reduce the age allowed to get behind

Increasing the age would essentially ban everyone who is under the age until they reach the age.

They are lots of 16 years old who drive with due care.

There's also plenty of middle age people who drive carelessly and just blame young people

Monkeysgomad

It's not just young drivers. It the drivers who drink and get behind the wheel. As a 17 year old, I have seen more of my friends more conscious of the fact they cannot drink and drive compare to adults. Not one young person I know would drive the car while drunk, but I have seen adults do it when I have been out.
Yes there are people who drive alone and who are irresponsible, but most of us genuinely want to get on the road legally and have some independence.

Lia_lia

dunworth1 wrote: »

There should be a drivers Ed class in secondary school

I agree with this.

Timooo_23 wrote: »

Or just keep on improving driver training. We went from sending off a form to get whatever licence you want, to a proper driver training program with set lessons and a decent theory test. Not saying we're there yet, far from it. but on the right track. People need to be taught how to deal with poor weather conditions and emergencies such as skids on ice and oil on the roads.

This also. I am learning to drive at the moment and there are lots of things that I think could be added to the test. Such as: driving in adverse weather, motorway driving, parallel parking, night driving in rural areas, how to change a tyre. Not all of these would necessarily prevent accidents, however I still do think they should be part of the driving test.

I don't think increasing the age would make any difference really. A 14 year old could drive if you teach them. I know plenty of 25 year olds who are wreck-less drivers. I am 26 by the way!

I do know of people that have been let off for drink driving because they are friends with Gardai etc. This happens in my hometown in Kerry quite frequently. I've personally know 4 people, if not more, that never even got a fine for drink driving. Which is ridiculous. I hope it stops.

Also I guess improving the roads would help.

Monkeysgomad

TheQuietFella wrote: »

I didn't suggest banning anyone but to reduce the age allowed to get behind the wheel of a car. It's against the law to serve alcohol to children below the age of eighteen but yet we allow them behind the wheel of a car from the age of 16 under parental supervision! Children I can only assume get educated early by the driving habits of their parents or peers.

You have to be 17 to drive here, not 16. Also teenagers are allowed to drink on private property just not allowed buy it so essentially your point is incorrect and invalid.

Sam Kade

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Owing to the recent amount of deaths on our road particularly amongst
young drivers should the minimum age a driver is permitted behind the wheel
of a car or motorcycle be increased to 21. I personally feel that the youth are
not capable of understanding road safety or even concern for other road users.
I'm sorry for painting everyone with the same brush but the evidence isn't looking good either!

21, are you for real?

Sam Kade

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Between the theory test and the 12 EDT lessons and a decent enough driving test, I think there's enough safe guards there to teach young people how to drive safely.

I'd like to see a lot of older drivers on the road go back and sit their driving test and see how they do, the lack of indicators and lane jumping is abysmal.

Really, I see drivers of all ages doing that, I've even seen N drivers pulling some crazy stunts on the roads.

Sam Kade

Lia_lia wrote: »

I agree with this.



This also. I am learning to drive at the moment and there are lots of things that I think could be added to the test. Such as: driving in adverse weather, motorway driving, parallel parking, night driving in rural areas, how to change a tyre. Not all of these would necessarily prevent accidents, however I still do think they should be part of the driving test.

I don't think increasing the age would make any difference really. A 14 year old could drive if you teach them. I know plenty of 25 year olds who are wreck-less drivers. I am 26 by the way!

I do know of people that have been let off for drink driving because they are friends with Gardai etc. This happens in my hometown in Kerry quite frequently. I've personally know 4 people, if not more, that never even got a fine for drink driving. Which is ridiculous. I hope it stops.

Also I guess improving the roads would help.

Better leave that to the garage, changing a wheel is a different story

jimmycrackcorm

For someone who leaves school and gets a job at the age of eighteen, I don't see why they should be discriminated against when it comes to being able to drive to their job if need be and they can pass their test.

TheQuietFella

Monkeysgomad wrote: »

You have to be 17 to drive here, not 16. Also teenagers are allowed to drink on private property just not allowed buy it so essentially your point is incorrect and invalid.

Show where it says that!


Intoxicating Liquor Acts

It is an offence to buy alcohol for people under the age of 18. It is also an offence to give alcohol to anyone under the age of 18 unless in a domestic home and they have parental consent. If found guilty of any of these offences, you could be liable on summary conviction in a District Court to a class B fine for a first offence and a class A fine for a second or any subsequent offence.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html

Lia_lia

Sam Kade wrote: »

Better leave that to the garage, changing a wheel is a different story

I've already had my brother correct me on that twice, you'd think I'd say the right thing by now. Women drivers eh

Alanstrainor

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Show where it says that!


Intoxicating Liquor Acts

It is an offence to buy alcohol for people under the age of 18. It is also an offence to give alcohol to anyone under the age of 18 unless in a domestic home and they have parental consent. If found guilty of any of these offences, you could be liable on summary conviction in a District Court to a class B fine for a first offence and a class A fine for a second or any subsequent offence.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html

This thread has nothing to do with the legal age of drinking etc. Leave that discussion please.

Monkeysgomad

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Show where it says that!


Intoxicating Liquor Acts

It is an offence to buy alcohol for people under the age of 18. It is also an offence to give alcohol to anyone under the age of 18 unless in a domestic home and they have parental consent. If found guilty of any of these offences, you could be liable on summary conviction in a District Court to a class B fine for a first offence and a class A fine for a second or any subsequent offence.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html

B Minimum age of driver: Vehicles with seats for a maximum of 8 passengers and a maximum weight of 3,500kg (can tow a trailer where the maximum weight of the trailer when fully loaded is 750kg or less) --- 17years old.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/categories_of_motor_vehicles_and_minimum_age_of_drivers_in_ireland.html

You just answered your own question above 'unless in a domestic home and they have parental consent' which shows they can.

Monkeysgomad

Alanstrainor wrote: »

This thread has nothing to do with the legal age of drinking etc. Leave that discussion please.

Sorry mod didn't see this until now. On my phone , sorry again made slight reference.

thesimpsons

most schools now do driving theory now at 4th or 5th year but like lots of things learnt in school, people park the lesson learned until its actually needed. how many remember the dates of irish battles, the rivers and towns in countries, algebra etc. by all means teach road safety etc in schools, but it still needs to be property learned on the road in a real driving situation and then it needs to be policed by the gardai. I've two kids already driving, both passed first time at 17yrs + 7 months. plenty of maturity to be safe on the road. However, I've seen loads of their friends given cars or bought their own cheaply and didn't bother too much about being caught driving while still unlicenced cos they reckoned they'd never get caught. its not about the age of the driver, its all about maturity and the need for gardai visible presence and enforced penalties imo. same goes for older drivers. I actually relearned alot of road awareness by teaching my kids to drive.

the_pen_turner

this isn't about the age of the driver. its about their experience.
I know kids that are better drivers that adults. its because hey are out on farms etc driving around fields .

I think there should be driving classes as part of school. everybody should have to do the classes and given the opportunity to learn to drive.

if the law was enforced properly there would be a dramatic reduction in deaths and accidents.
if they upgraded the road network to have better area to pull into for tractors and slow vehicles and have more opportunities to safely overtake , it would reduce accidents


as part of the test you should have to change wheel, top up windscreen bottle , drive at night , motorway driving, slippery conditions , proper parking,


in the training you should be put in a skid car where the instructor can make you loose control to simulate ice . have an obstacle course with people doing stupid crap , even up to causing a small crass to frighten them.

if people were shown how easiy it is to loose control they would slow down

thesimpsons

the_pen_turner wrote: »

this isn't about the age of the driver. its about their experience.

I think there should be driving classes as part of school. everybody should have to do the classes and given the opportunity to learn to drive.

....

agreed with you about experience. you can't beat it. I don't agree that learning in school is the way too go. between the car costs, insurance problems and practice time, it just isn't feasible. Its not like teaching a home economics class or maths class and sending the student home to do homework on your own. Driving has to be done with licensed driver in an insured car and for many many hours and that isn't available to lots of school kids. even after you have passed your test, it takes many years before you will actually encounter emergency situations like ice, floods, child running out, etc but at least by then with regular mileage, the driver should be able to handle it.

bpb101

No, The young people in this country are the ones who get fúcking screwed the most. At 16 the price of travel on public transport is the same as somebody who is an "adult". Particular people around the start of college often work to pay for their own insurances . Which is not a bit cheap.

The government should do more to take down the price of insurance for u25. Ive got quotes of €5000 plus, (im 20) which is just absolutely crazy( if i had my own policy as a learner).

Also i have to wait 6 months to do a test ,which will make me have to get 3 hours on the luas everyday for a place that 3 stops down the m50.

Monkeysgomad

bpb101 wrote: »

No, The young people in this country are the ones who get fúcking screwed the most. At 16 the price of travel on public transport is the same as somebody who is an "adult". Particular people around the start of college often work to pay for their own insurances . Which is not a bit cheap.

The government should do more to take down the price of insurance for u25. Ive got quotes of €5000 plus, (im 20) which is just absolutely crazy( if i had my own policy as a learner).

Also i have to wait 6 months to do a test ,which will make me have to get 3 hours on the luas everyday for a place that 3 stops down the m50.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Pugzilla

Motorbikes should be banned. They serve no purpose in a modern society.

Loud deathtraps driven by crazies that are always speeding.

shietpilot

Better education is required for a start. There is no point saying "all dem youngsters out there have no responsibility behind de wheel". Anybody who is new to driving and just passed their driving test is doing crazy sh*te on the roads, especially on the motorways. Age simply doesn't come in to it.

If you don't teach someone to read they will not be able to read regardless of whether they are 17 years old or 70 years old.

It would be nice if they added motorway driving to the driving test. Obviously it would be unfair because learner drivers can't practise on motorways so they should do the next best thing: national roads. The speed limits aren't as high as on motorways but it's close enough. Lane usage is key.

Next thing of course is law enforcement. Someone mentioned making sure learners don't drive unaccompanied, making sure they have their L-plate or N-plate displayed. As much as I hate N-plates it annoys me when I see people who have passed the driving test after me driving without them while I've had N-plates since November 2014. Sure what's the point? Sometimes I feel like ripping them off...

I'm not even going to begin talking about Dublin Bus fare prices. I used to fork out €100 for a monthly ticket as a student. Absolute rip-off and I used to spend 2 hours on the bus one way just to get into college...

bpb101

shietpilot wrote: »

Better education is required for a start. There is no point saying "all dem youngsters out there have no responsibility behind de wheel". Anybody who is new to driving and just passed their driving test is doing crazy sh*te on the roads, especially on the motorways. Age simply doesn't come in to it.

If you don't teach someone to read they will not be able to read regardless of whether they are 17 years old or 70 years old.

It would be nice if they added motorway driving to the driving test. Obviously it would be unfair because learner drivers can't practice on motorways so they should do the next best thing: national roads. The speed limits aren't as high as on motorways but it's close enough. Lane usage is key.

Next thing of course is law enforcement. Someone mentioned making sure learners don't drive unaccompanied, making sure they have their L-plate or N-plate displayed. As much as I hate N-plates it annoys me when I see people who have passed the driving test after me driving without them while I've had N-plates since November 2014. Sure what's the point? Sometimes I feel like ripping them off...

I'm not even going to begin talking about Dublin Bus fare prices. I used to fork out €100 for a monthly ticket as a student. Absolute rip-off and I used to spend 2 hours on the bus one way just to get into college...

I think if your leaner after a set period of time ,(maybe after the 12 lessons) you should be able to drive on your own. And then maybe on the motorway with your "sponsor" .
Lets face it , sombody like myself, who lives about 500 meters away from an m50 exit and my intership is about 500 meters off another exit, The first thing i will be doing is going on the m50 the day ive passed my test ,On my own, without any training on a completely different type of road @100km an hour.



As for somebody mentioned adding parking. The reason , i would say that its not there, for Parnell parking if you hit the car, We have a problem here.... you cant drive off and you may have to wait days for the other driver to return or something....


Your less lightly to do a dangerous thing after just passing the test as you dont wont to lose something you have spent ages getting. Older drivers who think they own the road are the problem . To the OP, we all didnt have to just send away to the motor tax office with a £10 and wait 3 days for our licenses


Also not to go on about public transport, Do remember that if you are working you can claim the tax back. Students cant and their parent cant claim the tax back Even in the lightly case that the money came from them.

At the end of day The current system certifies that Joe blogs has the ability to drive beyond any doubt, safely . Something many drivers over 60 cant say.

My insurances has a boxymo in the car which complains if i go over the speed limit. I cant count the amount of times ive been overtaken ,going at the required speed limits(places nearby at 50km, when they should be at least 60), by older people. And the other day i was going down the quays at 30km an hour

Monkeysgomad

bpb101 wrote: »

I think if your leaner after a set period of time ,(maybe after the 12 lessons) you should be able to drive on your own. And then maybe on the motorway with your "sponsor" .
Lets face it , sombody like myself, who lives about 500 meters away from an m50 exit and my intership is about 500 meters off another exit, The first thing i will be doing is going on the m50 the day ive passed my test ,On my own, without any training on a completely different type of road @100km an hour.



As for somebody mentioned adding parking. The reason , i would say that its not there, for Parnell parking if you hit the car, We have a problem here.... you cant drive off and you may have to wait days for the other driver to return or something....


Your less lightly to do a dangerous thing after just passing the test as you dont wont to lose something you have spent ages getting. Older drivers who think they own the road are the problem . To the OP, we all didnt have to just send away to the motor tax office with a £10 and wait 3 days for our licenses


Also not to go on about public transport, Do remember that if you are working you can claim the tax back. Students cant and their parent cant claim the tax back Even in the lightly case that the money came from them.

At the end of day The current system certifies that Joe blogs has the ability to drive beyond any doubt, safely . Something many drivers over 60 cant say.

My insurances has a boxymo in the car which complains if i go over the speed limit. I cant count the amount of times ive been overtaken ,going at the required speed limits(places nearby at 50km, when they should be at least 60), by older people. And the other day i was going down the quays at 30km an hour

I agree after the 12 lessons learners should drive alone. I know they do this I'm other countries. When you sit your test its testing obviously safety but if your confident to drive alone. How can you be when you've always had someone in the seat next to you?

Also I agree with you above about older people and speed limits. There are areas in cork and speed is 50km and the Gaurds are known for always being there, yet the other day I was there and a man in late 60s to mid 70s passed me out and gave me the middle finger.