A new idea for farmers to get a premium price for their product!

Capercaillie

Basically farmers manage their land in an conservation orientated fashion and get a premium price for their product. http://wildskybeef.org/about
A great idea and maaybe a way forward for some farmers. We have the "Orgin Green" ( http://www.origingreen.ie/ ) which is the greatest load of propaganda invented. Imagine people doing it properly and managing their lands to benefit wildlife (verified by doing census of species and habitat management). You could buy beef from corncrake/chough/Twite/barnacle geese lands in West Connaught. Beef from the Burren. Beef/Lamb from hen Harrier lands in Kerry. The landowners would get a premium price for their produce and not the race to the bottom which we currently have.
What do you think for a niche market?

I said

Beef to the heel in Mullingar

Genghis Cant

Biffo Beef..... Sounds like a plan!

fepper

Sure the organic scheme covers that market,most consumers want beef and lamb as cheap as possible

_Brian

Yep.
Consumer not willing to pay a premium. They want the cheapest beef whatever the source. And most could care less about the corn crake or hen harrier and definitely won't pay a premium on their food to support them.

Capercaillie

_Brian wrote: »

Yep.
Consumer not willing to pay a premium. They want the cheapest beef whatever the source. And most could care less about the corn crake or hen harrier and definitely won't pay a premium on their food to support them.

Your correct most people could not care less about corncrake/hen harrier. It would be a niche market, something akin to free range chicken/organic food. Which some people will pay for.

djmc

I think it's a good idea some lads around the country have tried to go it alone but with only limited success.
If it could be branded and marketed by bord bia or similar like organic it might have a chance.
True also most people will only want cheap food but if we can compete with a better tasting produced it might be worth more.
This would need research and thinking outside the box.
For example if dexter cows were crossed with a Wagyu bull and wagyu cross calves raised on wild grass and heather and finished on a certain blend of ration and killed a a certain age
Hung for 28 days you might have a small carcass but I bet it could be marketed and have a different taste to what you could buy in the supermarkets.
Pigs chickens ducks sheep can all be fed to have better tasting meat but the market isn't there at the moment to cover the cost.
If there was a set standard and constant supply then some restaurants could be a good start but people won't just pay for the name unless we can get the taste flavour and continuity right.

Miname

djmc wrote: »

I think it's a good idea some lads around the country have tried to go it alone but with only limited success.
If it could be branded and marketed by bord bia or similar like organic it might have a chance.
True also most people will only want cheap food but if we can compete with a better tasting produced it might be worth more.
This would need research and thinking outside the box.
For example if dexter cows were crossed with a Wagyu bull and wagyu cross calves raised on wild grass and heather and finished on a certain blend of ration and killed a a certain age
Hung for 28 days you might have a small carcass but I bet it could be marketed and have a different taste to what you could buy in the supermarkets.
Pigs chickens ducks sheep can all be fed to have better tasting meat but the market isn't there at the moment to cover the cost.
If there was a set standard and constant supply then some restaurants could be a good start but people won't just pay for the name unless we can get the taste flavour and continuity right.

A wagyu crossed Dexter. Is that not already available as a mountain goat.

Capercaillie

djmc wrote: »

I think it's a good idea some lads around the country have tried to go it alone but with only limited success.
If it could be branded and marketed by bord bia or similar like organic it might have a chance.
True also most people will only want cheap food but if we can compete with a better tasting produced it might be worth more.
This would need research and thinking outside the box.
For example if dexter cows were crossed with a Wagyu bull and wagyu cross calves raised on wild grass and heather and finished on a certain blend of ration and killed a a certain age
Hung for 28 days you might have a small carcass but I bet it could be marketed and have a different taste to what you could buy in the supermarkets.
Pigs chickens ducks sheep can all be fed to have better tasting meat but the market isn't there at the moment to cover the cost.
If there was a set standard and constant supply then some restaurants could be a good start but people won't just pay for the name unless we can get the taste flavour and continuity right.

Marketing the key. UK would be a good market for a product like that. In UK there are 1 million + members of the RSPB (Royal Society for the protection of Birds). They would pay for a product like this.

djmc

Miname wrote: »

A wagyu crossed Dexter. Is that not already available as a mountain goat.

Yes but I bet it would be a tasty mountain goat.
What else would you have on the mountain
Sur them contanintal Belgium blues would die of the fright it they saw the place if they didn't sink to their belly's first.

djmc

It would be nice to get some guidance from some government body to conservation farming
Teagasc have a lot of good information on drainage soil fertility grass measuring etc.
But nobody is coming up with any information on how farming in natura areas can become more efficient or profitable.

Capercaillie

djmc wrote: »

It would be nice to get some guidance from some government body to conservation farming
Teagasc have a lot of good information on drainage soil fertility grass measuring etc.
But nobody is coming up with any information on how farming in natura areas can become more efficient or profitable.

In the NPWS farm plans you get good advice on practical methods for conseravation (on the particular species). You have a NPWS ranger and agricultural adivisor helping you out. Unfortunately NPWS is underfunded/understaffed and it is not a priority with the Coveneny/Humpreys and even less so the IFA.

gazahayes

Only 10 percent of organic lamb is sold as organic the rest is sold conventional. So where are you going to find all the markets?

Sam Kade

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Biffo Beef..... Sounds like a plan!

Nah, too costly to produce, snout always in the trough

atlantic mist

there is groups/farmers at that all ready, conamara and comeragh lamb are two off hand with nice produce, the lads in comeragh lost a lot of money the year of snow the sheep froze

we have areas of conservation on our farm, we leave them to the foxes, badgers, squirrels and birds. cant seem to keep lads hunting with dogs out defeats the purpose of what we were trying to do

_Brian

gazahayes wrote: »

Only 10 percent of organic lamb is sold as organic the rest is sold conventional. So where are you going to find all the markets?

This is the problem with any such plan, the markets just don't exist. There will always be a small niche to be filed, but this is nowhere big enough to build a sustainable countrywide business model on. And I don't think its a product we can export on any volume either.. People living in UK/France/Wherever will want organic/free range from their own country/locality rather than one exported to them from here..

Was it ETTG recently where I saw Dr Colin Sage talking on the ever increasing farm outputs and farmers being left with less and less, he said we already produce enough food for 10bln people and there is essentially no need for the requested increase in production as this will only further reduce farm incomes further..

Dr Sage said manufacturers and retailers are the main beneficiaries of over production of food, along with consumers who spend less on food than ever before.
However, he said farmers are victims of a system which demands huge production of food.
He said: “The real victims of the system are farmers. Farmers can’t possibly be beneficiaries of a system where they’re always on a treadmill that encourages you to produce more and more to drive costs.”

djmc

I don't think the op was suggesting a country wide model or organic model but rather a model of producing food in small parts of the country not yet affected by modern farming or machinery.
It would be small scale production at low stocking rates in a way that would help support rare wildlife.

Capercaillie

djmc wrote: »

I don't think the op was suggesting a country wide model or organic model but rather a model of producing food in small parts of the country not yet affected by modern farming or machinery.
It would be small scale production at low stocking rates in a way that would help support rare wildlife.

That would be correct. Hen harrier are only found breeding on a few upland areas/bogs in the Country. Sympathetic beef/lamb production could only be done at low stocking rates. Intensive production leads to extinction.

The same could be said of the Corncrake. Only found on Islands/headlands off West Connaught/Donegal in traditional hay meadows. Mowing to be delayed till August/Septembre with aftermath grazing at 0.5LSU/Ha and with meadows closed off early in year. You would never get high beef/lamb production rates at that those management techniques.

kowtow

_Brian wrote:

Was it ETTG recently where I saw Dr Colin Sage talking on the ever increasing farm outputs and farmers being left with less and less, he said we already produce enough food for 10bln people and there is essentially no need for the requested increase in production as this will only further reduce farm incomes further..

_Brian wrote:

This is the problem with any such plan, the markets just don't exist. There will always be a small niche to be filed, but this is nowhere big enough to build a sustainable countrywide business model on. And I don't think its a product we can export on any volume either.. People living in UK/France/Wherever will want organic/free range from their own country/locality rather than one exported to them from here..

Agree with a great deal of what you say and export is the problem.

But it may not be an insurmountable problem.

We buy plenty of African fair trade coffee because we share the values of the producer if not their postcode.

There's a huge amount of organic / wholefood shopping in the US - 11% of regular shops by some counts. If niche food can make it to manhattan from California then why not here?

The UK is culturally close and already a huge market - although weirdly ignored in documents like harvest 2020.

The one thing I wouldn't do is expect bord bia or any national quango to help. Govt bodies are the kiss of death to quality niche products.

Do it at a very local level. Kick a co-op into shape or form one of you can't.

_Brian

I think the biggest obsticals to sustainable profitable farming is consumerism and the control this has given to the multiples.

They have taken over the food supply chain and have conned the consumer into thinking they are providing a premium product at knock down rates. They set the prices throughout the food chain so they set a price the consumer wants, they set their profits, then the farmer takes what's left, rarely enough to be profitable.
The whole system is broken with farming taking the brunt of the damage.

Siamsa Sessions

Great thread!

My take is that some of the sustainable, green, organic value is lost as soon as you transport the produce over any type of distance and start adding carbon footprint miles.

Would be interesting to see how consumers react to food which printed its carbon footprint on the label. Again, it'd be down to how it was marketed but it might encourage people to buy local/Irish.

coolshannagh28

Its an excellent idea but a major drawback is that it runs contrary to the policy set out by Coveney which is to support large processors and divert funds away from these areas towards productive farmers. The market is there particularly in the UK but without government support extremely difficult to crack and bear in mind that Irish produce is stacked high in the UK and sold cheap as per government policy.

barnaman

Problem here is not a large domestic market for such a product. Also all too arbitary what is green/environmetal farming? My farm has pinemartins, loads of rare orchids etc and plenty rare birds from hawks, buzzards but its not a SAC nor do I want it to be. Even saw a covey of grey partridge here 3 years ago about 60 miles from where there furthest range is meant to be! My farm is a mixture of instensive and non instensive which could be alot better for environment then a 0.5 LU farm. As farm is a decent size I can afford or not! to leave 30 acres plus hedges etc in woods/non grazed land etc. Another thing know lads with NHA land that is not SAC so as saying is a farm with a hen harrier more important than one with merlins, pine martins and various rare flora?

Organic are having to kill stock as conventional and way too many gone into was reading Dept have no idea what to do with all the stock with new entrants when they kill out as organic in 2 years. For beef etc when you are exporting 90% of product you are unfortunately catering to lowest common denomitor. So nice idea but not likely to succeed

Found these intrsting

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/21/organic-farms-carbon-footprint-climate-change

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/14/why-are-organic-farmers-across-britain-giving-up

ganmo

No individual farmer can do what you want op. The problem that I see is that consumers(and retailers) want consistant product not the seasonal product that would be produced in harmony with the environment

Capercaillie

ganmo wrote: »

No individual farmer can do what you want op. The problem that I see is that consumers(and retailers) want consistant product not the seasonal product that would be produced in harmony with the environment

If the money was good they would.

_Brian

Capercaillie wrote: »

If the money was good they would.

Race to bottom price is always the first solution.... we've now come full circle from getting a premium price to pricing the product cheap to be attractive in just what?, 25 posts... at least we didn't waste too much effort to get right back where we already are

ganmo

Capercaillie wrote: »

If the money was good they would.

The money for the consumer or the farmer?

Capercaillie

ganmo wrote: »

The money for the consumer or the farmer?

both

djmc

The idea of this thread has been going round in my head since it started.
If lads in the other thread are selling dexter cattle meat for 5 euro a kg surly there is a market for it at a premium price.
Like fair trade coffee a few cent extra in the shop could make it a viable project.
I wonder who could help get something like this off the ground
Bord bia NPWS or ifdl or would farmers have to go it alone.
It would be a more niece market than organic as its more about the protection of endangered animals.

Capercaillie

djmc wrote: »

The idea of this thread has been going round in my head since it started.
If lads in the other thread are selling dexter cattle meat for 5 euro a kg surly there is a market for it at a premium price.
Like fair trade coffee a few cent extra in the shop could make it a viable project.
I wonder who could help get something like this off the ground
Bord bia NPWS or ifdl or would farmers have to go it alone.
It would be a more niece market than organic as its more about the protection of endangered animals.

Doubt there is anybody in Bord Bia who would give a feck about corncrake, Hen Harrier. NPWS would not know much about marketing. IFDL would be more interested in production/impact of designations. Perhaps though if all three worked together you could get the job done.
100% agree it would be niche market. I would not really care if a product was organic/GMO, but I would be intersted in buying a product that was helping safeguard Hen Harrier!

djmc

Too bits on agriland today about dawn meats appointed a new sustainability manager and renuas agri policy letting sheep farmers graze spa working with NPWS but I'm not sure exactly what they mean by this.
I think the whole sustainability image could well be a growing market .
Origin green seems to be more about marketing the main stream produce than protection of endangered animals and land areas.

Capercaillie

djmc wrote: »

Too bits on agriland today about dawn meats appointed a new sustainability manager and renuas agri policy letting sheep farmers graze spa working with NPWS but I'm not sure exactly what they mean by this.
I think the whole sustainability image could well be a growing market .
Origin green seems to be more about marketing the main stream produce than protection of endangered animals and land areas.

Yip origin green is all about marketing. Wishy washy waffle about "sustainabilty", pictures of mountains, "envirnomental" protection. No specifics about any protection of endangered wildlife.

Renau are basically Fine Gael rejects. They policy document is also waffle, trying to appeal to everyone. No specifics.

barnaman

By chance asked about "Origin Green" today has had to contact Bord Bia about Audit. Asked if needed to do amything to get "Orgin Green" for my farm and answer was no, essentially PR marleting then thry remebered yeah you have to fill in a carbon footprint for faem and thats it. Ie you have 150 LU they prodice XYZ same as nitrates report.

djmc

The UK seems to be ahead of us in this area from the limited research I have done online the best grazing plan to have on moorland or mountain areas it to have at least two types of grazing animals either cattle and sheep or ponies and cattle etc. at low stocking rates
The breed makes a difference too as they should be hill or moorland breeds.
Sheep are appealing as they can be keeped out longer or even over winter without doing much damage by poaching but then there is the cost of fencing and risk of dog attacks.
All hill breeds have a lower value than commercial stock due to a smaller carcass size but are more suitable to the area due to the fact they will eat low quality forage that other lowland stock won't.
They will also thrive in these areas if there was only a economic market return to make it worthwhile.

djmc

Just in case anyone is int interested in a bit of reading up on the subject

http://www.fowlescombe.co.uk/friends/produce/images/a_guide_to_animal_welfare_in_nature_conservation_grazing.pdf

ganmo

the uk is miles ahead of us in terms of hill grazing management
and we are standing still since teagasc got rid of their hill farm in galway.
as it stands people are just doing what they did before without much thought going into it.