West of Ireland water logged land

taxusbaccata

Hi all,

I'm very new to land but what do you guys think about my observations and thinking.

I have observed that during winter most land and soil in the West gets quite water logged. All I see west of the Shannon is a film of collected water and rushes.

I notice that the water will not permeate the surface. Indeed the surface layer of soil (about 10cm) is as essentially brown gel - you could seal your bathroom with it.
I suspect this layer has been created from decades and possibly centuries of livestock faeces disseminating into ultrafine soil particles which are compacted with the weight of the animals. There are no sand/stone or other large particles present to aid drainage.

The solution it would seem would be to deep plough and even excavate the deep course layers with the upper "gel" soil. Combined with open drains this would rehabiliate the soil no end. (Closed drains and plastic piping will always block, open drains are natural and look great) The rushes need to be dug out (spraying and topping seems a waste of time - it just sets them back for a time).

Does this seem right or am I completely off?

Thanks for the feedback.

Miname

If you think you can sort it you'll be a very rich man. Bogs can be 12 inches deep or 30 foot or more. What I've seen of them I reckon you'd be fighting a never ending battle.

ganmo

Deep ploughing ya say? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0gSq6IxUQGI

Reggie.

ganmo wrote: »

Deep ploughing ya say? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0gSq6IxUQGI

That's some effort for 2 furrows

limo_100

taxusbaccata wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm very new to land but what do you guys think about my observations and thinking.

I have observed that during winter most land and soil in the West gets quite water logged. All I see west of the Shannon is a film of collected water and rushes.

I notice that the water will not permeate the surface. Indeed the surface layer of soil (about 10cm) is as essentially brown gel - you could seal your bathroom with it.
I suspect this layer has been created from decades and possibly centuries of livestock faeces disseminating into ultrafine soil particles which are compacted with the weight of the animals. There are no sand/stone or other large particles present to aid drainage.

The solution it would seem would be to deep plough and even excavate the deep course layers with the upper "gel" soil. Combined with open drains this would rehabiliate the soil no end. (Closed drains and plastic piping will always block, open drains are natural and look great) The rushes need to be dug out (spraying and topping seems a waste of time - it just sets them back for a time).

Does this seem right or am I completely off?

Thanks for the feedback.

If anyone comes to plough for us and they plough more than 4 inches deep il plough them with a kick up the hole

djmc

Unfortunately bad land will always be bad it's to do with soil type and what's under it usually blue gley it stops water going down and nutrients coming up.
You can make it better with work but the day you finished it will start to revert back towards the way it always was.

kay 9

Picking stones is another nightmare after ploughing. Alot of the land in the West is hardly fit for purpose at the best of times. Alot of our own included. Yes wouldn't trot a snipe on some the past month

frazzledhome

Reggie. wrote: »

That's some effort for 2 furrows

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tI4_itd37T0

barnaman

Look lads this is what happened the last time a lad attempted deep ploughing in the West.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvoqR5JuYCA

Kovu

My neighbour tried out a new ploughing method while driving (??) across the field last week.

Reggie.

barnaman wrote: »

Look lads this is what happened the last time a lad attempted deep ploughing in the West.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvoqR5JuYCA

I'd love to know how it ended up upside down

zetecescort

barnaman wrote: »

Look lads this is what happened the last time a lad attempted deep ploughing in the West.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvoqR5JuYCA

dual wheels and it still got into trouble

Wanderer78

whats the story with the deep ploughing lads? whats the advantages of it?

Nekarsulm

taxusbaccata wrote: »

There are no sand/stone or other large particles present to aid drainage.

This is the thing. The last ice age and glaciation scoured the land down to the bare rock and the plastic like subsoil. Then as the ice retreated the sands and gravels and mineral soils were redeposited unevenly and at different depths. The yellow/blue /grey subsoil you find under much of the drumlin counties etc. is basically what was left after the ice age and it takes tens of thousands of years to break down and convert to a soil. The ice age lasted 1.8 million years, and the four inches of topsoil you sre talking about how much soil has developed in 11,00 years. Other areas got deep mineral deposits and free draining gravel mixtures.
If you managed to ever deep plough this "channel" plastic type clay to the top, you are basically turning back the clock 11,000 years ago to the time of the end of the last ice age. You will buy good land cheaper than make good land.
Deep ploughing is used on re-claimed sea bed polders in Holland. It turns up silts and sands and buried salt pans.

djmc

Wanderer78 wrote: »

whats the story with the deep ploughing lads? whats the advantages of it?

In Ireland it was to bury peat or shallow bog break the iron pan and mix up bringing more red earth to the surface which would have more nutrients and minerals to grow grass and also have a harder surface.
Used during the 80s as well as digger turning over ground to reclaim bog.
Not sure the reasons on the video but I'd imagine to improve soil

mayota

zetecescort wrote: »

dual wheels and it still got into trouble

It was a wet spring.

Wanderer78

djmc wrote: »

.....Not sure the reasons on the video but I'd imagine to improve soil

thank you for that response. ive recently discovered no-till farming. what are your guys thoughts on this? i have been informed this is a better way to preserve soil health in general. apologies for hijacking the thread

djmc

Wanderer78 wrote: »

thank you for that response. ive recently discovered no-till farming. what are your guys thoughts on this? i have been informed this is a better way to preserve soil health in general. apologies for hijacking the thread

If you have got good soil that you have fertilised every year you would want to keep these nutrients at the surface where grass roots can take them up and not bury them with a plough it all depends on what type of land you have.
Ploughing can break the pan and help with drying ground or compaction.
Teagasc have a PDF book free online about drainage on heavy soils digging test pits soil types etc.
There is also a map of soil types across Ireland online.

taxusbaccata

Nekarsulm wrote: »

This is the thing. The last ice age and glaciation scoured the land down to the bare rock and the plastic like subsoil. Then as the ice retreated the sands and gravels and mineral soils were redeposited unevenly and at different depths. The yellow/blue /grey subsoil you find under much of the drumlin counties etc. is basically what was left after the ice age and it takes tens of thousands of years to break down and convert to a soil. The ice age lasted 1.8 million years, and the four inches of topsoil you sre talking about how much soil has developed in 11,00 years. Other areas got deep mineral deposits and free draining gravel mixtures.
If you managed to ever deep plough this "channel" plastic type clay to the top, you are basically turning back the clock 11,000 years ago to the time of the end of the last ice age. You will buy good land cheaper than make good land.
Deep ploughing is used on re-claimed sea bed polders in Holland. It turns up silts and sands and buried salt pans.

I suspect the putty topsoil is due to overgrazing over centuries. If the land was left for grasses and other wild plants to decay into the soil I don't think the layer would be this fine and hydrophobic. These plants would decay and be broken down by soil micro and macroscopic organisms. The elimination of trees except for hawthorn due to superstition is amazing - what they do for the land with fallen leaves and root systems is ignored. What I am going to try when it drys out a bit is to mix the deeper sandier layers with the superficial "putty" soil.

I've been given advice from experienced farmers that has turned out to be dead wrong so I'm going to experiment and use logic with likely lots of disappointment and hopefully some successful results along the way.

Nekarsulm

OK, keep us posted on the progress.

Muckit

Reggie. wrote: »

That's some effort for 2 furrows

That's a one furrow reversible

patsy_mccabe

Nekarsulm wrote: »

This is the thing. The last ice age and glaciation scoured the land down to the bare rock and the plastic like subsoil. ....

Did you know all this Nek or did you just cut and paste?

djmc

It sounds like poaching during the last few years that has done the damage
up to 40 years ago most farms in ireland were undergrazed as people only keeped a few cattle until machinery silage and cubicle houses came on the seen
Min till would only make a mess on the ground you described either plough or use a subsoiler or pan buster.

Nekarsulm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Did you know all this Nek or did you just cut and paste?

Loved Geography back in school, and we had a brilliant teacher. Had to Google when the last ice are ended, though.

_Brian

taxusbaccata wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm very new to land but what do you guys think about my observations and thinking.

I have observed that during winter most land and soil in the West gets quite water logged. All I see west of the Shannon is a film of collected water and rushes.

I notice that the water will not permeate the surface. Indeed the surface layer of soil (about 10cm) is as essentially brown gel - you could seal your bathroom with it.
I suspect this layer has been created from decades and possibly centuries of livestock faeces disseminating into ultrafine soil particles which are compacted with the weight of the animals. There are no sand/stone or other large particles present to aid drainage.

The solution it would seem would be to deep plough and even excavate the deep course layers with the upper "gel" soil. Combined with open drains this would rehabiliate the soil no end. (Closed drains and plastic piping will always block, open drains are natural and look great) The rushes need to be dug out (spraying and topping seems a waste of time - it just sets them back for a time).

Does this seem right or am I completely off?

Thanks for the feedback.

Mostly incorrect I'm afraid.
Heavy clay soil is the problem, google it.

Deep ploughing on such land is near impossible and creates more problems.
Animal waste, manure is good for land.

Your right that compaction from sock in wet weather is a problem , but
More a problem for clay than other soil types.

Spraying rushes is very effective, if the soil has been sorted and drained it is more successful.

Farming on these soils is a real challenge, and they're not confined to the west either.

djmc

It depends if it is heavy clay soil from what the op has posted seems to say a wet putty brown
Surface around 10 cm deep and Sandy silty soil underneath.
If its grey or blue mud its a waste of time ploughing deep but if its red earth and sandstone or pencil rock then it is.

Reggie.

Muckit wrote: »

That's a one furrow reversible

If ya watch it closely you'll see the small furrow takes half of the next bit of land with it. So when the big furrow goes down the opposite way the actually takes roughly 1.5 it's width as half of the first furrow is turned already.

That's how I'm seeing it

mf240

Nekarsulm wrote: »

This is the thing. The last ice age and glaciation scoured the land down to the bare rock and the plastic like subsoil. Then as the ice retreated the sands and gravels and mineral soils were redeposited unevenly and at different depths. The yellow/blue /grey subsoil you find under much of the drumlin counties etc. is basically what was left after the ice age and it takes tens of thousands of years to break down and convert to a soil. The ice age lasted 1.8 million years, and the four inches of topsoil you sre talking about how much soil has developed in 11,00 years. Other areas got deep mineral deposits and free draining gravel mixtures.
If you managed to ever deep plough this "channel" plastic type clay to the top, you are basically turning back the clock 11,000 years ago to the time of the end of the last ice age. You will buy good land cheaper than make good land.
Deep ploughing is used on re-claimed sea bed polders in Holland. It turns up silts and sands and buried salt pans.

A now the powers that be have decided climate change is down to humans.

mf240

If ya plough down the small bit of topsoil on shallow land and bring up the impermeable lair it will be useless.

Good loser

Check the neighbourhood for work done and soils significantly improved.

No point repeating failed experiments. Check too with Teagasc.

taxusbaccata

Thanks for all the tips everyone.

In lower parts of the land I see the grey impermeable layer but where I'm working on it is a clay/sand subsoil layer. It is very compacted but becomes very loose when dug and dropped from a digger I hired. The volume essentially doubles with this technique. In fact ploughing may not be aggressive enough.

I read that heavy ploughing and rotovation is not recommended for soils normally as it disrupts the surface micro-organisms, fungi, and potentially exposes to erosion but it seems the soil experts allow it as a once off for heavily compacted soils.

I have observed how easily basic sand becomes soil between paving flagstones when nature is allowed colonise and how plants grow from the minerals leaching from plain sand. It will be interesting to see how this new loosened volumised soil/sand performs, or not, over the next few months. I am quitely confident it will be good stuff!

Will report back...