Binoculars

sillysocks

Hi All,

I haven't a clue about binoculars by my other half has been hinting at a pair for Christmas - he wants them for some star/moon gazing and then some general use as well.
Any suggestions on where is the best place to look for them and roughly what should I be expecting to spend on a pair that would be good enough as a starter pair to see if he uses them etc before buying a better set?

Would be grateful for any advice!

Mountjoy Mugger

Something like these might be ok.

mickmackey1

I'd say those are too weighty for casual use, you'll need a tripod to support them properly. Try these 10x50s for starters before thinking of anything more serious.

Thargor

If you see the 10X50 Bressers in Lidl again then grab them, brilliant binoculars for 20 Euro, they have them twice a year. 10X50 is good all round Earth and Sky but really to use in place of a scope they're just too small though.

Pat Dunne

If you are going to make an investment in a pair of Bino's, I would also recommend a tripod and a tripod adaptor. Great investment and a highly portable star gazing set up.

sillysocks

Thanks for those suggestions, I'll check them out.
This may be a stupid question but if he has a tripod for a Nikon dslr would I only need a tripod adapter then or would the tripods themselves be different?

Thargor

Cant get to Ebay for some reason but you'll find something like this there for cheap:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-Binocular-Adaptor-mounting-Binoculars/dp/B009AEDHVQ/ref=pd_sim_421_3?ie=UTF8&dpID=414Xr%2Bk9EKL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0A29AXND4V0D6ZSB1PFZ

I really would recommend more research into exactly what views you get through regular sized binoculars like 10X50 though, even a small scope like these 70mm Bressers in Lidl atm will be completely superior especially when viewing the moon and Saturn/Jupiter. Small-Medium binoculars will not show you the bands of Jupiter or Saturns rings.

mickmackey1

sillysocks wrote: »

Thanks for those suggestions, I'll check them out.
This may be a stupid question but if he has a tripod for a Nikon dslr would I only need a tripod adapter then or would the tripods themselves be different?

You would just about get away with it for 15x70 binos but it's not ideal, the dslr weighs signicantly less. So if you go with the 10x50s you won't need a tripod at all, but will still see enough to help you decide on future purchases.

rolion

Hello,

Welcome to our world of "toxic" combination of passion,excitement and disappointments.

My experience in buying astro equipment is that if I buy cheap I end up buying twice and frustrated losing money.
You can buy a cheap set of bino just to test the views,but as they are poor quality and you won't see nothing properly.Double disappointed : you've spent money and can't see it with that "oauw" feeling.Also,you been upset of the views you will not progress further and the set cannot be trade or sold either.

I've been there with my scope and eye pieces: once you use a proper eye piece and your eyes and brain "swims" in to space deep wide black immensity...I'll never buy a cheap start - up eye piece just to see how or what I see.is false economy.

If you are really interested and the virus is settled inside you...I repeat if only...go and get yourself a nice set of Celestron Sky Masters from here:
http://www.celestron.com/browse-shop/astronomy/astronomy-binoculars/skymaster-20x80-binocular
Have a look at the range and go at least with the middle one as price based on your budget.Get a nice tripod as well.
Then we will meet you at Sugar Loaf Fridays. ..

Enjoy it...

In astronomy as a hobby,if you don't have a desire in acquiring stuff irrespective of financial terms...then you have no imagination !! (or,I'll add a wife !?? )

sillysocks

Well I am the wife in this case so don't want to encourage him too much

I tried to draw him out a bit last night and he's definitely not too interested in a telescope, wants to stick to binoculars for now. He's also very into aviation and wants to be able to look at planes etc.

Thargor

rolion wrote: »

Hello,

Welcome to our world of "toxic" combination of passion,excitement and disappointments.

My experience in buying astro equipment is that if I buy cheap I end up buying twice and frustrated losing money.
You can buy a cheap set of bino just to test the views,but as they are poor quality and you won't see nothing properly.Double disappointed : you've spent money and can't see it with that "oauw" feeling.Also,you been upset of the views you will not progress further and the set cannot be trade or sold either.

I've been there with my scope and eye pieces: once you use a proper eye piece and your eyes and brain "swims" in to space deep wide black immensity...I'll never buy a cheap start - up eye piece just to see how or what I see.is false economy.

If you are really interested and the virus is settled inside you...I repeat if only...go and get yourself a nice set of Celestron Sky Masters from here:
http://www.celestron.com/browse-shop/astronomy/astronomy-binoculars/skymaster-20x80-binocular
Have a look at the range and go at least with the middle one as price based on your budget.Get a nice tripod as well.
Then we will meet you at Sugar Loaf Fridays. ..

Enjoy it...

In astronomy as a hobby,if you don't have a desire in acquiring stuff irrespective of financial terms...then you have no imagination !! (or,I'll add a wife !?? )

Where do you keep track of these sugarloaf Fridays? Is there a FB group?

jfSDAS

Thargor wrote: »

Where do you keep track of these sugarloaf Fridays? Is there a FB group?

Hi Thargor,

The Dublin Stargazer's Meetup is where you'll find info about the Sugar Loaf events. Link is http://www.meetup.com/The-Dublin-Stargazers-Group/

Six of us on the Meetup group had a meal in the Powerscourt Arms in Enniskerry last Saturday with the intent of going observing afterwards at the Sugar Loaf but the weather stymied any stargazing plans.

RE: binoculars, I'd definitely pick up the 10x50mm in Lidl as mentioned by an earlier poster. They are perfect for a grab 'n' go instrument to scan the sky. The 15x70mm Celestron Skymasters are also an excellent choice to whet the appetite for stargazing. The extra magnification will be quite obvious (15x compared to the 10x of the Lidl instruments) and they can be mounted on a tripod or reasonably steadily handheld if seated.

An idea of the detail at various binocular magnifications can be gleaned from the image at http://www.scottcountry.co.uk/news_detail.asp?newsID=38

The 15x70mm have a greater light-grasp too and will allow many double stars, star clusters, some gaseous nebulae, and distant galaxies to be swept up, as well as viewing our own Milky Way. That said, galaxies will just appear as a faint smudge with most just tiny specks of light -- most photos you see of galaxies in books are long-duration time exposures with telescopes. The low magnification of binoculars will not let you see detail on the planets but will allow the 4 main moons of Jupiter to be seen, the phase of Venus when a crescent, and hint at something unusual about Saturn as its shape will appear slightly elongated due to the rings. The 15x70mms will allow great views of the Moon and good maps can be sourced online.

John

Thargor

Perfect thanks.

ThunderCat

sillysocks wrote: »

Well I am the wife in this case so don't want to encourage him too much

I tried to draw him out a bit last night and he's definitely not too interested in a telescope, wants to stick to binoculars for now. He's also very into aviation and wants to be able to look at planes etc.

What is your budget if you don't mind me asking?


The way binoculars work is that the more magnification they have, the heavier they will be and the shakier the image will appear if it is not mounted to a tripod. Also more magnification would mean a narrower field of view.


Considering he is into aviation aswell as astronomy then I concur what others have said and recommend a pair of 10x50 binoculars. The 10x50 will give him a wider field of view than binoculars with more magnification so it will make locating planes that bit easier. Also he will not have to mount the binoculars as they are light enough and stable enough to hand hold so he can track the planes across the sky easier. At night time when he is viewing the stars he could then mount the binoculars to a tripod for the steadiest view possible as stars wont be moving as quickly as planes from his perspective.


If you let me know the budget, I can then recommend a few for you.

sillysocks

To be honest there wasn't a budget as such as I hadn't a clue whether I'd need to spend 20 or 200 on a half decent starter pair so I was going to see how much and go from there! I think I've left it too late for Christmas ordering now anyway so might hold off until his birthday early next year. Hopefully those ones might come up in Lidl in the meantime and if not I guess about 70/80 might be enough to spend on his first pair.

Thanks all for the info so far, it at least gives me a starting point and some basic info.
He might end up at the Sugar Loaf some weekend-in laws don't live too far from there!

Pat Dunne

sillysocks wrote: »

Thanks for those suggestions, I'll check them out.
This may be a stupid question but if he has a tripod for a Nikon dslr would I only need a tripod adapter then or would the tripods themselves be different?

I'd suggest getting the adaptor anyway, I've seen them priced in or around €15 in camera shops locally.

The adaptor is so handy.

WHL

I have a passing interest in astronomy and follow Virtual Astro on Twitter to find out ISS crossing times etc. He constantly recommends these binoculars as being perfect. https://twitter.com/virtualastro/status/677241255315841024 I received them the other day and they will be my Christmas present along with the tripod añd adaptor listed in the Frequently bought together section on Amazon.

Apparently the binoculars come with an adaptor but it is plastic/weak and there is too much play in it. Some guy on Twitter thanked VA for the recommendation and said that they are also great for looking at planes. Looking forward to trying them out

intheclouds

Ive got 2 different Celestron Skymaster pairs (15*70 and 25*70), and a pair of Celestron 10*50 and the Lidl 10*50s and quite honestly the Lidl ones are my go to pair because they were so cheap that I leave them in the car without fear of theft or damage and same if I want to bring a pair on holidays Ill bring those ones. The Celestron Skymasters are great but do require a tripod.

The Celestron 10*50's are better optically than the Lidl ones, but because they are not the pair that live in my car they get less use.

uck51js9zml2yt

Dont know if its too late for you but I picked up a pair of bresser 20x80 on amazon.de for €110.delivery to parcel motel.


Edited just to say that I changed my mind on the Bressers, I didnt find many reviews. I settled on a pair of Celestron Skymaster 20x80 from Amazon Germany with direct delivery.
They were a ware house deal which also gave me an extra 30% discount so they worked out at €70.

All I need now is a chance to use them once delivered. Is there a meetup planned for January?

space2ground1

jfSDAS wrote: »

Hi Thargor,

The Dublin Stargazer's Meetup is where you'll find info about the Sugar Loaf events. Link is http://www.meetup.com/The-Dublin-Stargazers-Group/

Six of us on the Meetup group had a meal in the Powerscourt Arms in Enniskerry last Saturday with the intent of going observing afterwards at the Sugar Loaf but the weather stymied any stargazing plans.

RE: binoculars, I'd definitely pick up the 10x50mm in Lidl as mentioned by an earlier poster. They are perfect for a grab 'n' go instrument to scan the sky. The 15x70mm Celestron Skymasters are also an excellent choice to whet the appetite for stargazing. The extra magnification will be quite obvious (15x compared to the 10x of the Lidl instruments) and they can be mounted on a tripod or reasonably steadily handheld if seated.

An idea of the detail at various binocular magnifications can be gleaned from the image at http://www.scottcountry.co.uk/news_detail.asp?newsID=38

The 15x70mm have a greater light-grasp too and will allow many double stars, star clusters, some gaseous nebulae, and distant galaxies to be swept up, as well as viewing our own Milky Way. That said, galaxies will just appear as a faint smudge with most just tiny specks of light -- most photos you see of galaxies in books are long-duration time exposures with telescopes. The low magnification of binoculars will not let you see detail on the planets but will allow the 4 main moons of Jupiter to be seen, the phase of Venus when a crescent, and hint at something unusual about Saturn as its shape will appear slightly elongated due to the rings. The 15x70mms will allow great views of the Moon and good maps can be sourced online.

John

Hi all, is there anywhere in Ireland I could get the celestron 15x70's? I've a one for all voucher that has binoculars written all over it!

uck51js9zml2yt

Thargor, try amazon.de I got a good deal in their warehouse 20x80 celestron for 70 euro. It was part of their Extra discount offer

Jfsdas what time do you reckon you'll wind up proceedings at next months meet up. I've an early airport run on Sunday.

jfSDAS

space2ground1 wrote: »

Hi all, is there anywhere in Ireland I could get the celestron 15x70's? I've a one for all voucher that has binoculars written all over it!

Hmm, I'm not sure if Argos stock those binoculars but one option might be to cash in the One4All voucher (though I think they charge a small cash-in fee) and then put the cash towards getting the instruments off kTec who advertise on this forum.

Jfsdas what time do you reckon you'll wind up proceedings at next months meet up. I've an early airport run on Sunday.

Just saw the planned meetup posted by Ben. The wrap-up time is open-ended as people will drift away as the night goes on or if the sky clouds over. Generally I think it finishes up around 1 or 2am, but I've not been at too many of the meetup group's events.

John

space2ground1

Are these the Lidl binoculars that some were suggesting are good value?

http://www.lidl.ie/en/Offers.htm?action=showDetail&id=36107

murphyme2010

No,the Lidl binos for astronomy are 10x50s

These are two small for astronomy.

space2ground1

Thanks. Might be a while before we see those so if they're selling the smaller ones soon.

Thargor

Dont buy the zoom ones when they come up either, you sacrifice a lot of quality and light for a pretty useless zoom feature.

Hotblack Desiato

These go on sale on Monday.

http://www.lidl.ie/en/Offers.htm?action=showDetail&id=38637

Not Bressers, but 20 quid. Worth picking up for casual use?

uck51js9zml2yt

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

These go on sale on Monday.

http://www.lidl.ie/en/Offers.htm?action=showDetail&id=38637

Not Bressers, but 20 quid. Worth picking up for casual use?

fairly decent reviews on SGL.. just check them for collimation first

sillysocks

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

These go on sale on Monday.

http://www.lidl.ie/en/Offers.htm?action=showDetail&id=38637

Not Bressers, but 20 quid. Worth picking up for casual use?

Had spotted that - will try get them on Monday.
Does anyone know if they usually sell out very quickly the morning they come in going on previous times?

intheclouds

sillysocks wrote: »

Had spotted that - will try get them on Monday.
Does anyone know if they usually sell out very quickly the morning they come in going on previous times?

No, they're usually there a few days.

sillysocks

Great, thank you! Hopefully will get there around lunchtime but wasn't sure if that'd be too late!

crazygeryy

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

These go on sale on Monday.

http://www.lidl.ie/en/Offers.htm?action=showDetail&id=38637

Not Bressers, but 20 quid. Worth picking up for casual use?

Could someone tell me if these would be good for plane spotting?as opposed to the celestron 10 x 50 's ?

Thargor

Well they're 10x50s aswell so very similar I would imagine, only 10x magnification on both so you're not exactly going to be investigating the Rings of Saturn or anything like that, planespotting they'll probably be fine.

intheclouds

crazygeryy wrote: »

Could someone tell me if these would be good for plane spotting?as opposed to the celestron 10 x 50 's ?

The optics are probably better on the Celestrons, but my experience (with Bressers and Celestrons) is that it's not noticeable for daylight use at all.

crazygeryy

Thargor wrote: »

Well they're 10x50s aswell so very similar I would imagine, only 10x magnification on both so you're not exactly going to be investigating the Rings of Saturn or anything like that, planespotting they'll probably be fine.

Perfect guys thanks i think these will do fine for the price.
In the way of astronomy and stars etc what could you see with these?

Thargor

Binocular astronomy is very different to telescope astronomy, to me with my 150 mm scope astronomy is seeing what Jupiters moons are doing tonight or if I can make out bands of cloud on the surface, maybe a hint of red on mars or a bit of Saturns rings, see if I can spot another galaxy or just look at the Pleiades and other interesting targets, see how many lunar features I can name etc, interesting things like that. Thats with a massive (for my living space anyway) 150 mm diameter Newtonian reflector properly collimated with decent eyepieces properly balanced on a decent tripod, Id consider that the absolute bare minimum for seeing anything really and it would be way too small for anyone serious about astronomy, especially under crappy Irish skies. Everything I just mentioned through a decent telescope will appear as tiny, tiny dots of light at the bottom of a deep tube that you really have to focus on and squint with dark adapted eyes to see any detail on, you cant just say "oh Ill buy a pair of binoculars instead and save a load of money and storage space" and expect to see anything like that, its just not going to happen. Binocular astronomy is very popular on the astronomy sites so people obviously get some enjoyment out of it but personally I dont see the point, good for learning the sky and the constellations maybe.

Thats just my opinion though. Definitely buy those binoculars anyway, everyone should have a decent pair of 10X50s, you'll never regret buying them and have them forever for terrestrial views. My advice is go to an open night and use other peoples scopes and see the bare minimum you need, telescopes hold their value really well so buying secondhand on Adverts or Donedeal and selling it on again for the same money if its not for you is always an option.

intheclouds

I love binocular astronomy! Mostly because it's fast, convenient and easy. The 10x50s are great because they don't require a tripod.

I use Stellarium to sit and identify stars, planets, constellations.

Currently where I live I can't have my telescope set up so its bino only for the moment.

Plus I love that magical moment of putting the binoculars to my eyes and a previously sparse looking star field being jammed with more stars!

The other advantage is the binos are mobile, I leave a pair in the car and use them for a lot more than just astronomy.

Of course, it's a different experience to use a telescope but no reason one can't enjoy both (especially if the binos in question are only 20 euro). Or start with binoculars and move to a telescope later if interest develops.

I can't agree with Thargor at all on his views, there is definitely a place for binocular astronomy IMO.

Pat Dunne

Thargor wrote: »

Binocular astronomy is very different to telescope astronomy, to me with my 150 mm scope astronomy is seeing what Jupiters moons are doing tonight or if I can make out bands of cloud on the surface, maybe a hint of red on mars or a bit of Saturns rings, see if I can spot another galaxy or just look at the Pleiades and other interesting targets, see how many lunar features I can name etc, interesting things like that. Thats with a massive (for my living space anyway) 150 mm diameter Newtonian reflector properly collimated with decent eyepieces properly balanced on a decent tripod, Id consider that the absolute bare minimum for seeing anything really and it would be way too small for anyone serious about astronomy, especially under crappy Irish skies. Everything I just mentioned through a decent telescope will appear as tiny, tiny dots of light at the bottom of a deep tube that you really have to focus on and squint with dark adapted eyes to see any detail on, you cant just say "oh Ill buy a pair of binoculars instead and save a load of money and storage space" and expect to see anything like that, its just not going to happen. Binocular astronomy is very popular on the astronomy sites so people obviously get some enjoyment out of it but personally I dont see the point, good for learning the sky and the constellations maybe.

Thats just my opinion though. Definitely buy those binoculars anyway, everyone should have a decent pair of 10X50s, you'll never regret buying them and have them forever for terrestrial views. My advice is go to an open night and use other peoples scopes and see the bare minimum you need, telescopes hold their value really well so buying secondhand on Adverts or Donedeal and selling it on again for the same money if its not for you is always an option.

There is most certainly a place in amateur astronomy for binoculars!
I am extremely lucky to have a 9.25 inch SCT scope, a collection of 2 inch EP's, along with all the "whistles and bells", which is my pride and joy. I also have a pair of Nikon 10x50 bin's which I have had for over 30 years and there is no way I would ever get rid of them.

mickmackey1

+1 for binoculars. This past week I was sweeping for Comet Linear/252 and some of the starfields in Ophiuchus and Serpens are jaw-dropping. Difficult to replicate that variety in the much narrower field of view of a medium sized telescope.

Thargor

mickmackey1 wrote: »

+1 for binoculars. This past week I was sweeping for Comet Linear/252 and some of the starfields in Ophiuchus and Serpens are jaw-dropping. Difficult to replicate that variety in the much narrower field of view of a medium sized telescope.

Not really, Id take a low power eyepiece or over binoculars any day if I was sweeping for a comet, or just use the finderscope and then be lined up and able to view it at higher powers when you eventually find it, theres just not a whole lot more a pair of 10 X 50s will show you that your naked eye wont do just as good a job anyway. They're definitely not for a newbie looking for their first views of the planets and other classic targets. The OP is clearly wondering if they're a viable alternative to a scope, they're not, nowhere near.

intheclouds

My naked eye shows me only a fraction of what's visible through my 10x50s.

Like literally, one tenth!

Best option for a newbie IMO.

Thargor

intheclouds wrote: »

My naked eye shows me only a fraction of what's visible through my 10x50s.

Like literally, one tenth!

Best option for a newbie IMO.

Best option for a newbie? All newbies want to see first is the planets and a few of the more famous Messier objects, give them a pair of binoculars instead of a scope and they'll be severely disappointed, a struggle to see any difference between the binos and the eyeball. Give them anything less than 130mm and they'll be disappointed.

Lets wait and hear what wondrous views of the universe he sees when he tries these miraculous Lidl 10 X 50s and reports back

intheclouds

sillysocks wrote: »

he wants them for some star/moon gazing and then some general use as well.

........good enough as a starter pair to see if he uses them etc before buying a better set?

Thargor wrote: »

Best option for a newbie? All newbies want to see first is the planets and a few of the more famous Messier objects, give them a pair of binoculars instead of a scope and they'll be severely disappointed, a struggle to see any difference between the binos and the eyeball. Give them anything less than 130mm and they'll be disappointed.

Lets wait and hear what wondrous views of the universe he sees when he tries these miraculous Lidl 10 X 50s and reports back

Wow, sounds like you're trying to put people off astronomy.

I started on binos and moved to better binos then a scope and now doing a BSc in astronomy.

Messier objects? Never even head of them til I started studying.

Perhaps you've a bionic eyeball because I can see a huge difference.

Judging by the OP it wasn't "wondrous views of the universe" that advice was being asked upon.

Ugh, I hate the attitude that you can only be interested in astronomy and see anything worthwhile with a telescope.

OP go with the LIDL binos, you won't regret it.

Thargor

intheclouds wrote: »

Wow, sounds like you're trying to put people off astronomy.

:rolleyes:

space2ground1

I'll be buying these for the exact same reasons as the OP. I live on an airport flight path and I've an interest in aviation. I also enjoy watching ISS passes and looking at the moon and stars. I'll get an immense sense of wellbeing with those binos outside with a hot chocolate and it's unlikely I'll consider that I'm missing out on the rings of Jupiter

mickmackey1

Thargor wrote: »

Not really, Id take a low power eyepiece or over binoculars any day if I was sweeping for a comet, or just use the finderscope and then be lined up and able to view it at higher powers when you eventually find it

This particular comet is half the apparent diameter of the moon and almost naked-eye brightness, so perfect for binocular sweeping. And a wide target like the Pleiades cluster looks better through 10 x 50s than through a scope. Binoculars are a no-brainer for any newbie.

Pat Dunne

intheclouds wrote: »

Wow, sounds like you're trying to put people off astronomy..............

Thargor wrote: »

:rolleyes:

C'mon folks lets not turn this one into a pissing contest!

Bino's and Scopes, both have there places in amateur astronomy.

For many Bino's, are a perfectly good place to start out from and continue to be part of one's kit forever and a day. For others its straight into scopes and build a kit from there, however that does not mean buying a "starter" scope will give you better performance over a good set of Bino's.

To my mind when starting out in this wonderful hobby, I would rather invest in a good set of Bino's over one of those "starter scopes", which are sold by toys shops and astronomy websites. Buying a decent scope is a serious investment and therefore not open to all, whereas buying a good set of bino's is reasonably affordable to all and if you do become bitten by the astro bug are a great stepping stone to getting more deeply involved.

There is plenty of room for both and we should all be big enough here to acknowledge this.

Thargor

mickmackey1 wrote: »

This particular comet is half the apparent diameter of the moon and almost naked-eye brightness, so perfect for binocular sweeping. And a wide target like the Pleiades cluster looks better through 10 x 50s than through a scope. Binoculars are a no-brainer for any newbie.

So all those detailed shots of the Pleiades you see in the images sections of the astronomy forums were taken through 10x50 binoculars? Who knew! Because any time I've looked at them with binoculars it's just looked like a normal star cluster not much different to a naked eye view, any time I've looked at them through a scope it's a stunning view where you can make out the different magnitudes of the different stars, the clouds of dust etc, I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to explain how this is wrong and the shakey detail free view is actually the correct way to do it and that I'm just trying to put people off astronomy again...

mickmackey1

Actually those images are taken with cameras costing thousands... anyway 99% of those who know what they're talking about would say binoculars are a great purchase, but the OP can make up their own mind.

uck51js9zml2yt

Agreed, binos are a great purchase but care should be taken in getting budget ones as glass may be lower quality and they may not be collimated.
I got pair of 20x80 celestrons for a €100 on Amazon so didnt break the bank while getting a reasonably good pair.
Scopes don't necessarily have to cost the earth either. Adverts has some good deals occasionally and with a bit of research a bargain can be had.
As others have said, its not about binos or scopes. Both have their place in amateur astronomy serving different objectives.

Thargor

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Actually those images are taken with cameras costing thousands... anyway 99% of those who know what they're talking about would say binoculars are a great purchase, but the OP can make up their own mind.

Oh really? I and everyone else who ever looked at them through a telescope must be hallucinating those details then, probably as part of this conspiracy to put people off astronomy. I do hope the OP reports back on how they get on with these Lidl binoculars and tells us about all they got to see though.