40% would prefer non-Christian school - Equate Ireland

Zamboni

So there is another group now set up to campaign for equality in education.
There are so many groups and campaigns now it is all a bit muddled - but it shows the sheer momentum on this topic now!


Article on survey
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1209/752253-religion-in-schools/

Website
http://www.equateireland.ie/

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/equateireland/?fref=ts

Kidchameleon

Diarmuid Martin is on board too...

http://www.businesspost.ie/parents-have-right-to-choose-non-religious-schools-diarmuid-martin/

Nodin

Intelligent young woman on this morning on RTE on the same subject. "For balance" they had on David Quinn. When she talked about the Tyranny of the majority his back went up straight away. Not that he nessecarily understood the concept.

Fleawuss

The divestment proposal of you can have that, we'll keep this is flawed and this survey points to why. It can't be left to a lottery of where you get a house or flat to decide on your education for your kids, religious education or non religious as you wish. The country can't afford multiple local services be they schools or whatever. A serious accommodation is needed: a local school which teaches a curriculum that by definition does not exclude and also allows faith formation at a time at start or end of the day for all religions. The religions and non religions can be accommodated: it will require real leadership to deliver.

Cabaal

Why waste school resources at all on religion? , we already have countless religious buildings and workers who are underused around the country.

Leave religion out of school and get parents to just bring their kids to school and make use of those many under used churches.

Attending a weekly religious service is generally an expected basic requirement for the majority of religions.

expectationlost

Zamboni wrote: »

So there is another group now set up to campaign for equality in education.
There are so many groups and campaigns now it is all a bit muddled - but it shows the sheer momentum on this topic now!


Article on survey
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1209/752253-religion-in-schools/

Website
http://www.equateireland.ie/

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/equateireland/?fref=ts

where did this suddenly appear from
board Declan Ryan Ruairi Quinn TD: etc

what is it that Ruairi Quinn think he's going to do with @equateireland that he couldn't do as minister?

secular education has gotten its own rich benefactor Declan Ryan, now he gets to dictate what happens

Bristolscale7

Yeah, the group is a collection of political operatives. There's political capital to made from the issue now so they are seizing the moment.

What was Quinn's take on voting down the amendment last week?

Akrasia

Cabaal wrote: »

Why waste school resources at all on religion? , we already have countless religious buildings and workers who are underused around the country.

Leave religion out of school and get parents to just bring their kids to school and make use of those many under used churches.

Attending a weekly religious service is generally an expected basic requirement for the majority of religions.

Exactly

Hotblack Desiato

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

There's political capital to made from the issue now so they are seizing the moment.

Great! Even if Ireland really was 'a catholic country' or if the 84% figure from the census bore any relation to reality rather than wishful thinking or a cultural relic, it wouldn't make the current situation fair or just.

Over 30% of marriages are now civil marriages, these parents and future parents are unlikely to want religious instruction for their kids in school. Those who got married in a church only because it looks nice or they wanted to keep the inlaws happy are fairly unlikely to also. Many don't get married at all which hardly indicates an adherence to RC (or CoI) doctrines, apart from the big days out.

Ireland is rapidly becoming an increasingly less religiously observant society. Nobody should be forced to have their children instructed in a religion against their wishes (an explicit constitutional right) and nobody should be discriminated against in school enrolment on grounds of religion (a stated constitutional right also, yet laws permitting this remain on the statute books.) This is simply not compatible with religious ethos schools dominating the state-funded education system.

Hotblack Desiato

Fleawuss wrote: »

The divestment proposal of you can have that, we'll keep this is flawed and this survey points to why. It can't be left to a lottery of where you get a house or flat to decide on your education for your kids, religious education or non religious as you wish. The country can't afford multiple local services be they schools or whatever. A serious accommodation is needed: a local school which teaches a curriculum that by definition does not exclude and also allows faith formation at a time at start or end of the day for all religions. The religions and non religions can be accommodated: it will require real leadership to deliver.

The only fair and just and economical way to proceed is to have secular education as the norm. Any other solution will cause injustice and waste money.

Cabaal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Over 30% of marriages are now civil marriages, these parents and future parents are unlikely to want religious instruction for their kids in school.

Spot on,
I got married in a church, set all along it was completely meaningless to me...including to the priest. Even said it on the wedding day to a few people.

Truth be told it was to keep the mother in law happy,
But any children we have will never ever be baptised, it just won't happen no matter how much crap it causes.

So using catholic wedding stats is by no means a accurate way of working out who wants a catholic ethos school either.

I know of a number of people that hated the whole communion thing but did it because it was part of the school year and they didn't want their children left out....this is the wrong reason to do communion and it devalues the catholic church,

I know of one 8 year old who's only reason for doing communion is for the money...I know cause he told me outright. He rolls his eye's at the nonsense at mass but is sticking it out purely for the money.

I'd wager that most kids given the choice between a communion day and money or Disney land and money would pick Disney land any day of the week. Doesn't say much for the belief in Jebus.

Those who got married in a church only because it looks nice or they wanted to keep the inlaws happy are fairly unlikely to also. Many don't get married at all which hardly indicates an adherence to RC (or CoI) doctrines, apart from the big days out.

Indeed, 40% of children born in the state in 2013 were born to unwed mothers...something that would have resulted in alot of these women being thrown into mother and baby homes in the 1950's.

Hardly in-line with Catholic teachings and I've come across even the local priest refusing to baptise a child belong to a unwed mother so its evident that the negative view towards unwed mothers exists. The scary thing is this same priest is involved in the local primary school
:rolleyes:

Custardpi

Like it or not one of the reasons why the Catholic Church maintains its cultural grip on Irish education is because of stuff like Communion & Confirmation ceremonies. Even if many participants don't take them as seriously as true believers would like the fact is that people like a sense of ceremony, they like celebrating milestones (however arbitrary) in their children's lives & they like an excuse to put on their finery. That's true whether whether we're speaking of Catholics making Confirmation, Jews celebrating Bar Mitzvahs, young Amazonian tribesmen getting their lips pierced etc etc etc.
A secular education system will have to figure out a way to beat this attraction, possibly by coming up with new things to celebrate, replacing the old fairy tales or at least existing alongside them for those parents who still genuinely want a religious element to their offspring's education. A primary graduation ceremony perhaps?

gctest50

Custardpi wrote: »

..........
A secular education system will have to figure out a way to beat this attraction, possibly by coming up with new things to celebrate.............

could celebrate not believing in sky-fairies any more ?


don't know why it can't be like France :

“Vallie went to school in France. There you just go to the local school. It’s completely secular. If parents want their children to do religious education, they go to Sunday school or private schools. "

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-in-school-she-feels-excluded-and-different-1.2462201

Bristolscale7

I got married in a registry office over ten years ago. A few friends of my partner's mother, surprised to be in a registry office, were heard whispering "Does he have any children from his previous marriage?"

Hotblack Desiato

Custardpi wrote: »

A secular education system will have to figure out a way to beat this attraction, possibly by coming up with new things to celebrate

Why? It'd be nothing to do with the school any more than non-catholic ceremonies of children attending RC schools are anything to do with that school today.

My son had a graduation ceremony from his preschool :pac: mortarboard and robe and scroll photo and all!

Custardpi

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Why? It'd be nothing to do with the school any more than non-catholic ceremonies of children attending RC schools are anything to do with that school today.

My son had a graduation ceremony from his preschool :pac: mortarboard and robe and scroll photo and all!

Very simple. The Communion/Confirmation ceremonies have been an integral part of Irish education for the vast majority of people since the foundation of the state & probably a good bit before that too. Changing this might well be a perfectly sensible, logical & beneficial thing to do but getting rid of longstanding traditions or changng the way in which they're celebrated is much easier said than done, not least because of inertia.

Hotblack Desiato

Custardpi wrote: »

Very simple. The Communion/Confirmation ceremonies have been an integral part of Irish education for the vast majority of people since the foundation of the state & probably a good bit before that too. Changing this might well be a perfectly sensible, logical & beneficial thing to do but getting rid of longstanding traditions or changng the way in which they're celebrated is much easier said than done, not least because of inertia.

They will still be free to do that, just prepare for it outside of school hours, just as ET pupils can do today.

Custardpi

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They will still be free to do that, just prepare for it outside of school hours, just as ET pupils can do today.

True, but moving that preparation out of the schools on a larger scale will mean the setting up of new structures, as well as greater participation from parents & a willingness on the part of kids to attend extra classes. Far easier to keep nodding along to the current system. Changing people's longstanding habits & traditions is incredibly difficult, no matter how much sense such a change might make.

Pherekydes

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

I got married in a registry office over ten years ago. A few friends of my partner's mother, surprised to be in a registry office, were heard whispering "Does he have any children from his previous marriage?"

Hehe. Our kids were at our registry office wedding. Hers, mine and ours.

Shrap

Pherekydes wrote: »

Hehe. Our kids were at our registry office wedding. Hers, mine and ours.

Same here, all three of them Husband's son was a witness. Youngest (our's) took the best photos of the whole day, from under the main table! Getting divorced now though....not that this is a reflection on civil marriage!

realdanbreen

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

I got married in a registry office over ten years ago. A few friends of my partner's mother, surprised to be in a registry office, were heard whispering "Does he have any children from his previous marriage?"

Do you have a husband and a partner?

Hotblack Desiato

realdanbreen wrote: »

Do you have a husband and a partner?

If said conversation took place before the wedding... then no she had no husband at that time :rolleyes:

c montgomery

40% would prefer and 60% would not.
Majority rules, come back when your at 50.1 %

Hotblack Desiato

Majority rule crushing minority rights isn't democracy, it's fascism.

PopePalpatine

c montgomery wrote: »

40% would prefer and 60% would not.
Majority rules, come back when your at 50.1 %

Thinly veiled "nyeh-nyeh-nyeh-nyeh, we still get to discriminate!" post.

PopePalpatine

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Majority rule crushing minority rights isn't democracy, it's fascism.

Absolam will be along shortly to engage in a turgid semantic debate.

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Absolam will be along shortly to engage in a turgid semantic debate.

What do you mean by 'turgid' and 'semantic' and 'debate'? And 'shortly' and 'engage'?

frostyjacks

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Majority rule crushing minority rights isn't democracy, it's fascism.

It's not fascism, it's common sense. Run the schools along the lines that satisfy the wishes of the majority of parents. If a minority have a problem with that, then their free to start their own schools. The Muslims seem to do it without kicking up a fuss, why do atheists always have to play the victim card?

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's not fascism, it's common sense. Run the schools along the lines that satisfy the wishes of the majority of parents. If a minority have a problem with that, then their free to start their own schools. The Muslims seem to do it without kicking up a fuss, why do atheists always have to play the victim card?

They aren't free to start their own schools, not if they want State funding. I've a letter from the Department stating that because all schools in our area provide enough places for all children living in the area no new schools will be funded.

Delirium

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's not fascism, it's common sense. Run the schools along the lines that satisfy the wishes of the majority of parents. If a minority have a problem with that, then their free to start their own schools. The Muslims seem to do it without kicking up a fuss, why do atheists always have to play the victim card?

Explain how it is common sense, for example where I grew up, to have a single Catholic school for a diverse local population?

And why does it then make sense to give priority to Catholic children over other children?

Hotblack Desiato

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's not fascism, it's common sense.

So if the majority decided not to let non-catholics go to school at all, that'd be democracy too yeah?

Cabaal

c montgomery wrote: »

40% would prefer and 60% would not.
Majority rules, come back when your at 50.1 %

So when the majority white parents in America didn't want black children going to school in the same school as their kids that was good old majority rules and thats all good and fine yeah?

Nice!

Your backwards viewpoint in relation to equality is the same sort of viewpoint that forced the US government to have to assign THREE US marshals to a 6 year old child just so the child could attend school



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Bridges

As soon as Bridges entered the school, white parents pulled their own children out; all the teachers refused to teach while a black child was enrolled. Only one person agreed to teach Ruby and that was Barbara Henry, from Boston, Massachusetts, and for over a year Henry taught her alone, "as if she were teaching a whole class."

Thankfully, history will look back on your backwards viewpoint with utter disgust as time moves on just like it looks back on these racist parents from when this child attended that school.

pH

Cabaal wrote: »

So when the majority white parents in America didn't want black children going to school in the same school as their kids that was good old majority rules and thats all good and fine yeah?

You're going to get the same old trite answer, they're not trying to exclude anyone from their classrooms like those racists were, they're happy for your child to come to class and be indoctrinated in their religion.

In fact, their children need a religious education, and by insisting that your child doesn't get one in fact creates a segregated school system based on religious bigotry!

The only sensible, rational, fair and non-bigoted system is for all schools to be Catholic and send all children to them.

Cabaal

pH wrote: »

You're going to get the same old trite answer, they're not trying to exclude anyone from their classrooms like those racists were, they're happy for your child to come to class and be indoctrinated in their religion.

I suppose its not discrimination if all the white parents gave priority to all the white kids first and then when it came to black kids they claimed the school was full.
:pac:

frostyjacks

Cabaal wrote: »

So when the majority white parents in America didn't want black children going to school in the same school as their kids that was good old majority rules and thats all good and fine yeah?

Nice!

Your backwards viewpoint in relation to equality is the same sort of viewpoint that forced the US government to have to assign THREE US marshals to a 6 year old child just so the child could attend school



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Bridges



Thankfully, history will look back on your backwards viewpoint with utter disgust as time moves on just like it looks back on these racist parents from when this child attended that school.

The difference between the American south in the old days and Ireland today is that there's nothing to stop atheists sending their kids to Catholic schools, and there's absolutely no issue among staff and parents if they do. It's just laziness on behalf of atheist parents; I can't be bothered to drive my kids a couple of miles up the road to the ET school, or it's inferior to the the Catholic school, so I'll cry victim and wail about human rights until everyone is sick to the back teeth of listening to me and caves in to my demands.

Delirium

frostyjacks wrote: »

The difference between the American south in the old days and Ireland today is that there's nothing to stop atheists sending their kids to Catholic schools, and there's absolutely no issue among staff and parents if they do. It's just laziness on behalf of atheist parents; I can't be bothered to drive my kids a couple of miles up the road to the ET school, or it's inferior to the the Catholic school, so I'll cry victim and wail about human rights until everyone is sick to the back teeth of listening to me and caves in to my demands.

Incorrect. Catholic schools generally have an admissions policy that favors Catholics first, then other Christians, then the rest (sometimes other religions then non-religious).

Then you have the "ethos" argument where a school in theory can object to accepting a non-Catholic child to protect the ethos.

Then you could have a Catholic object to their child losing out a place to a Jewish child and demand that their child be given a place over the Jewish child as per the admissions policy.

And I'm not sure why you want to frame the demands for a secular public school system as Catholics v. atheists when people who are Catholics, Protestants, atheists, Jewish etc. support such a system. Secularism is not something only atheists support.

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

The difference between the American south in the old days and Ireland today is that there's nothing to stop atheists sending their kids to Catholic schools, and there's absolutely no issue among staff and parents if they do. It's just laziness on behalf of atheist parents; I can't be bothered to drive my kids a couple of miles up the road to the ET school, or it's inferior to the the Catholic school, so I'll cry victim and wail about human rights until everyone is sick to the back teeth of listening to me and caves in to my demands.

There are six schools near me, all but one is religious and our children are at the bottom of those lists. We have had names of both our children down for ET schools since we had PPS numbers for them, but there are no guarantees. As I said, I have letters from the Dept of Ed that no schools will change patronage or new ones established, as all schools in the area have sufficient places. If we need to force a school to accept our children, it will be almost 100% a religious school where places will be found given the numbers involved.

How dare you imply we are lazy or snobbish about how our children are educated.

robindch

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's just laziness on behalf of atheist parents; I can't be bothered to drive my kids a couple of miles up the road to the ET school, or it's inferior to the the Catholic school, so I'll cry victim and wail about human rights until everyone is sick to the back teeth of listening to me and caves in to my demands.

Your comment suggests you haven't really understood any of the issues, large or small, in this debate and - lacking anything to contribute - have decided instead simply to produce a few potted insults.

Thankfully, with the exception of the tiny portion of the country who's hardline catholic and similarly bereft of interest, understanding or sympathy, you're on your own there.

frostyjacks

robindch wrote: »

Your comment suggests you haven't really understood any of the issues, large or small, in this debate and - lacking anything to contribute - have decided instead simply to produce a few potted insults.

Thankfully, with the exception of the tiny portion of the country who's hardline catholic and similarly bereft of interest, understanding or sympathy, you're on your own there.

On my own with the potted insults? Could have sworn I saw allusions to sky fairies and fascism before I threw in my two cents.

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

The difference between the American south in the old days and Ireland today is that there's nothing to stop atheists sending their kids to Catholic schools, and there's absolutely no issue among staff and parents if they do. It's just laziness on behalf of atheist parents; I can't be bothered to drive my kids a couple of miles up the road to the ET school, or it's inferior to the the Catholic school, so I'll cry victim and wail about human rights until everyone is sick to the back teeth of listening to me and caves in to my demands.

There's places in Ireland where the nearest ET school is well in excess of a 60-90min+ car journey away (if not more), you expect a family to put their kid through a 2-3hour+ car journey a day for school? Whats wrong with you?

Thats only IF and its a big if the ET school has space.

Beyond such a silly suggestion the rest of your post shows you don't understand this issue at all
:rolleyes:

Human rights and equality in any country are very important issues, its seriously worrying that you are some flippant about equality and things its some sort of topic you should belittle and make fun of.

I'm very sad for any your family or relations in the future that may experience discrimination, it seems they won't receive any support from you, instead they are just being lazy for going to a business, employer etc that will accept them and treat them as equal.

Mary63

About eight per cent of the population are atheists,maybe even less.

Why are we giving them so much airspace.The rest of us don't give a hoot whether our children are taught religion or not but we like christian values and we want them taught,i.e. be nice to each other and play fair.

Why are we caving into the demands for a secular education system when the vast majority of parents don't want this,they really don't.

Also people keep going on about the Catholic church and how many schools they own.If we take religion from the Catholic schools we have to open up all the Church of Ireland schools too.The Church Of Ireland is a minority religion and it is very important for COI people that their children attend a school with their ethos,this keeps their community together.If the Athiests are going to force the Catholic Schools to stop teaching religion then can Catholic parents demand a place in the local church of Ireland school and be placed on an equal footing with a church of Ireland child.

The carol Service and nativity play in on in our local Catholic Church tonight,the children from the local school,their parents their siblings,their Grandparents will attend.None of these people deep down want a secular education,if they did they wouldn't be baptising their children to ensure a place in the Catholic school.All the catholic schools in this locality are full to the brim,it isn't that Hindu children or atheist children aren't welcome,the fact remains that the children who are getting the places are getting them because their parents want them to be taught religion in school,they want the Holy Communion ceremony,the confirmation ceremony,the nativity play,the mass at the end of sixth year,all this events mean a lot to many parents even if they aren't regular church goers and it seems to me their apathy in the face of the secular system that is being proposed by an influential minority will backfire on them.

lazygal

Mary63 wrote: »

About eight per cent of the population are atheists,maybe even less.

Why are we giving them so much airspace.The rest of us don't give a hoot whether our children are taught religion or not but we like christian values and we want them taught,i.e. be nice to each other and play fair.

Why are we caving into the demands for a secular education system when the vast majority of parents don't want this,they really don't.

Also people keep going on about the Catholic church and how many schools they own.If we take religion from the Catholic schools we have to open up all the Church of Ireland schools too.The Church Of Ireland is a minority religion and it is very important for COI people that their children attend a school with their ethos,this keeps their community together.If the Athiests are going to force the Catholic Schools to stop teaching religion then can Catholic parents demand a place in the local church of Ireland school and be placed on an equal footing with a church of Ireland child.

The carol Service and nativity play in on in our local Catholic Church tonight,the children from the local school,their parents their siblings,their Grandparents will attend.None of these people deep down want a secular education,if they did they wouldn't be baptising their children to ensure a place in the Catholic school.All the catholic schools in this locality are full to the brim,it isn't that Hindu children or atheist children aren't welcome,the fact remains that the children who are getting the places are getting them because their parents want them to be taught religion in school,they want the Holy Communion ceremony,the confirmation ceremony,the nativity play,the mass at the end of sixth year,all this events mean a lot to many parents even if they aren't regular church goers and it seems to me their apathy in the face of the secular system that is being proposed by an influential minority will backfire on them.

TL/DR my children don't deserve a place in a state funded school or an education free from indoctrination because other parents want schools to indoctrinate their children in schools paid for by the state.

Next you'll be claiming this is a catholic country and only for the churches we'd have zero schools at all.

Delirium

Mary63 wrote: »

About eight per cent of the population are atheists,maybe even less.

What relevance does the population of atheists have to do with providing a public education system that isn't punitive to non-Catholics?

Why are we giving them so much airspace.The rest of us don't give a hoot whether our children are taught religion or not but we like christian values and we want them taught,i.e. be nice to each other and play fair.

Unless the topic of conversation is the public school system.

Why are we caving into the demands for a secular education system when the vast majority of parents don't want this,they really don't.

Have you a survey/link to show that the majority of Irish people oppose a secular school system?

Also people keep going on about the Catholic church and how many schools they own.If we take religion from the Catholic schools we have to open up all the Church of Ireland schools too.The Church Of Ireland is a minority religion and it is very important for COI people that their children attend a school with their ethos,this keeps their community together.If the Athiests are going to force the Catholic Schools to stop teaching religion then can Catholic parents demand a place in the local church of Ireland school and be placed on an equal footing with a church of Ireland child.

You really think that those in favour of a secular system would oppose Roman Catholics and CoI pupils being viewed as equal with regards to access to education?

The carol Service and nativity play in on in our local Catholic Church tonight,the children from the local school,their parents their siblings,their Grandparents will attend.None of these people deep down want a secular education,if they did they wouldn't be baptising their children to ensure a place in the Catholic school.All the catholic schools in this locality are full to the brim,it isn't that Hindu children or atheist children aren't welcome,the fact remains that the children who are getting the places are getting them because their parents want them to be taught religion in school,they want the Holy Communion ceremony,the confirmation ceremony,the nativity play,the mass at the end of sixth year,all this events mean a lot to many parents even if they aren't regular church goers and it seems to me their apathy in the face of the secular system that is being proposed by an influential minority will backfire on them.

Why should a public school system be preparing a section of the class for Communion/Confirmation (faith formation) rather than educating them?

robindch

frostyjacks wrote: »

Could have sworn I saw allusions to sky fairies and fascism before I threw in my two cents.

Parodying an idea ("sky fairies") or accurately how a political system works in practice ("facism") and insulting your fellow-posters are three different things.

It would be good if you were to apologize for insulting your fellow-posters and the lengths they have to go to in order to secure an education for their children.

Mary63

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/martin-mansergh-it-would-be-rash-to-kill-denominational-schooling-1.2436793

You don't have the right either to demand that other children aren't taught religion in school just because you are making the decision for your child that religion isn't to be part of his or her life.

If you aren't prepared to compromise then you must look at the option of homeschooling.

The vast vast majority of parents don't want a secular system of education,the evidence is there when you look at the low rates of people who signed up to have their school divested,very few would agree to this.

People have an attachment to their parish,to their church and to their community,they like the link between the Church and the community and they see their local school as "theirs".They have funded tirelessly down the years for extra resources for their school and they will not willingly give it up to the state to provide a secular education for a minority of parents.

To force them to do so is not democracy.

Mary63

If the vast majority of catholic parents wanted a secular system of education they wouldn't be baptising their children or paying inflated property prices to move into an area which has good Catholic Schools.

They would be making a decision not to put their children forward for the sacraments.I would bet 95% of children in every Catholic School are still making their communion,what exercises parents is making sure their child has a star role in the ceremony and most parents will be looking for communion outfits before the christmas tinsel is taken down.The fact that the child won't set foot in a church till their confirmation and then not again till their wedding day is irrelevant.

It is not democratic to force what Athiests want on the majority of the rest of the population.

PopePalpatine

Democracy has limits. Ever heard of the concept of "tyranny of the majority"? That's what non-whites had to put up with across much of the USA thanks to segregation.

Naz_st

Mary63 wrote: »

About eight per cent of the population are atheists,maybe even less.

Why are we giving them so much airspace.The rest of us don't give a hoot whether our children are taught religion or not but we like christian values and we want them taught,i.e. be nice to each other and play fair.

If you don't care whether your children are taught religion or not you should be agreeing with a secular system, especially as the "christian values" you outline would likely feature prominently in any secular ethics class. Why do you need all the other guff about God, Satan, Adam & Eve, Orginal Sin, virgin births, papal infallibility, etc, etc.

Why are we caving into the demands for a secular education system when the vast majority of parents don't want this,they really don't.

Even ignoring the previously mentioned issues around ignoring minority voices in general in society, I'd question your use of "vast" at least.

None of these people deep down want a secular education,if they did they wouldn't be baptising their children to ensure a place in the Catholic school.All the catholic schools in this locality are full to the brim,it isn't that Hindu children or atheist children aren't welcome,the fact remains that the children who are getting the places are getting them because their parents want them to be taught religion in school,they want the Holy Communion ceremony,the confirmation ceremony,the nativity play,the mass at the end of sixth year,all this events mean a lot to many parents even if they aren't regular church goers and it seems to me their apathy in the face of the secular system that is being proposed by an influential minority will backfire on them.

This is not true and a consequence of the rigidity and flawed nature of the current rules: The *majority* of my friends who have kids (none would be religious) have baptised their children *solely* for the purpose of being able to get them in to the local school (that is currently allowed to discriminate against non-baptised children). Again, these would be non-religious parents, who would prefer their child to have a secular education, but faced with the choice of "no local school" or "school that requires my child to be baptised", you can understand the ultimately hypocritical result.

The Randy Riverbeast

Mary63 wrote: »

About eight per cent of the population are atheists,maybe even less.

Why are we giving them so much airspace.The rest of us don't give a hoot whether our children are taught religion or not but we like christian values and we want them taught,i.e. be nice to each other and play fair.

Why are we caving into the demands for a secular education system when the vast majority of parents don't want this,they really don't.

Also people keep going on about the Catholic church and how many schools they own.If we take religion from the Catholic schools we have to open up all the Church of Ireland schools too.The Church Of Ireland is a minority religion and it is very important for COI people that their children attend a school with their ethos,this keeps their community together.If the Athiests are going to force the Catholic Schools to stop teaching religion then can Catholic parents demand a place in the local church of Ireland school and be placed on an equal footing with a church of Ireland child.

The carol Service and nativity play in on in our local Catholic Church tonight,the children from the local school,their parents their siblings,their Grandparents will attend.None of these people deep down want a secular education,if they did they wouldn't be baptising their children to ensure a place in the Catholic school.All the catholic schools in this locality are full to the brim,it isn't that Hindu children or atheist children aren't welcome,the fact remains that the children who are getting the places are getting them because their parents want them to be taught religion in school,they want the Holy Communion ceremony,the confirmation ceremony,the nativity play,the mass at the end of sixth year,all this events mean a lot to many parents even if they aren't regular church goers and it seems to me their apathy in the face of the secular system that is being proposed by an influential minority will backfire on them.

1. There are people who aren't atheist and want a secular system.

2. The country has voted against Christian values multiple times so they can't be that fond of them.

The rest is just rubbish you came up with.

Mary63

Tyranny of the minority is what i think every time I read yet another article about Educational Equality,they are given far too much airspace and they represent a privileged white middle class view.

Most people are just too tired to care,they want a local school for their child and they baptise them from birth so they can be assured of a place.Why should they give up this place to a Hindu family who want to pick and choose where their child goes.If i go to a Hindu country can I demand a secular education for my child.If i go to a Muslim country can I demand that my child isn't exposed to the Muslim religion.

We don't have enough ET schools at the moment to facilitate secular education and we can't impose what a minority want on what the majority have and are happy with.The ET together schools are still insisting on taking first come,first served,they should be told to take parish children first and to take Athiest children first too.There are lots of children in ET together schools because its the most convenient school even if a child is Catholic,if the atheist child was given first refusal the ET schools could fill its places by offering them to parents who genuinely don't want religion taught.Its ridiculous that a huge number of ET together children are being taught religion after school and are making Catholic Sacraments in their own time while an atheist child is begging for a school place,this should be dealt with immediately.

Where has the country voted against religious values multiple times.Do you mean Divorce or the Gay Marriage referendum.We haven't yet had a referendum on Abortion on demand and I would think if and when we do it will probably be defeated.

The same sex marriage referendum you would have thought would have been ninety per cent in favour,in fact forty per cent of the population voted against it,an awful lot of people obviously did listen to the churches preaching in spite of the fact we all know a huge number of clergy are gay in orientation themselves.

I don't think baptising your child to get a place is hypocritical,I think its a very practical solution and will make life so much easier five years down the road.

looksee

but we like christian values and we want them taught,i.e. be nice to each other and play fair.

Can you be specific about your evidence for the exclusive link between Christian values and the 'be nice to each other and play fair' example?

I can think of lots more very specific evidence for the reverse of that link.