Is there a law that an Irish employer needs to pay to any account

Asmooh

Hello,

I ask HR to pay to my Dutch bank account, and they say its their policy that they can and should only pay to an Irish bank account.

So i'm looking for some information, is there a law that tells us that an employer should pay to any (also non irish) account the employee is giving because for whatever reason you don't want to use an Irish account (nomatter what reason).

Thanks for the information

Stheno

No law I'm aware of, they are perfectly entitled to have their policy though

Tom Dunne

I'd be curious as to how a law would be written on employer's methods of payment to employees.

Timing, taxing, rates, definitely. But the mechanism of actually paying employees? I can't see how that would work.

toadfly

It could be that their bank cannot process an international payment in their usual payment run for wages so makes sense to me that they dont do it. It would take more time and cost them more. No reason to do it.

thesimpsons

I know that a few years ago we had this request. We'd send a full payroll to the bank in one file (about 80 employees all together). The payroll system we were using couldn't handle the foreign bank's details that the one employee requested. Maybe systems can handle it now or maybe that's your employers reasoning.

davo10

Op, why can't you just transfer the money electronically from your Irish account to your Dutch account yourself. All you need is the IBAN and BIC details. It would take less time than the phone call to HR.

Asmooh

davo10 wrote: »

Op, why can't you just transfer the money electronically from your Irish account to your Dutch account yourself. All you need is the IBAN and BIC details. It would take less time than the phone call to HR.

Because it's easier than doing it manual every time? And we don't call to hr just an email.
And it's not the fact I can do it manual, if there is a Irish or European law that tells us that they need to I want to get my right because that's the law

Sir Oxman

I would have thought since it's all SEPA (IBANs and BICs) now that that request would be perfectly normal.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I'd say your hr department love you.

Nichard Dixon

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I'd say your hr department love you.

The EU spent years getting a single payment system in place and the OPs employer couldn't be arsed using it, which is clear discrimination against people from other member states.

PCX

Set up a standing order from the irish account to your other account that goes a few days after your normal payday.

Easy to do and you would only need to do this once so no recurring hassle.

dudara

I don't believe there's any law in place to support your request. The only onus on your employer is that they should pay you. They could pay you by cheque if they so wished, but thankfully, most companies have moved on from that.

With SEPA in place, the bank should be able to handle all payments, but perhaps your employers systems might not be capable. I also wonder if thre are foreign payment or money-laundering implications.

Asmooh

PCX wrote: »

Set up a standing order from the irish account to your other account that goes a few days after your normal payday.

Easy to do and you would only need to do this once so no recurring hassle.

But it will still be registered under my irish account and I have no clue how they handle privacy in ireland.

Stheno

Asmooh wrote: »

But it will still be registered under my irish account and I have no clue how they handle privacy in ireland.

What concerns do you have around privacy?

Rock of Gibraltar

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I'd be curious as to how a law would be written on employer's methods of payment to employees.

Timing, taxing, rates, definitely. But the mechanism of actually paying employees? I can't see how that would work.

Payment of Wages Act, 1991.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1991/act/25/enacted/en/html

Section 2 pertains to modes:

2.—(1) Wages may be paid by and only by one or more of the following modes:

(a) a cheque, draft or other bill of exchange within the meaning of the Bills of Exchange Act, 1882 ,

(b) a document issued by a person who maintains an account with the Central Bank of Ireland or a holder of a licence under section 9 of the Central Bank Act, 1971 , which, though not such a bill of exchange as aforesaid, is intended to enable a person to obtain payment from that bank or that holder of the amount specified in the document,

(c) a draft payable on demand drawn by a holder of such a licence as aforesaid upon himself, whether payable at the head office or some other office of the bank to which the licence relates,

(d) a postal, money or paying order, or a warrant, or any other like document, issued by or drawn on An Post or a document issued by an officer of a Minister of the Government that is intended to enable a person to obtain payment from that Minister of the Government of the sum specified in the document,

(e) a document issued by a person who maintains an account with a trustee savings bank within the meaning of the Trustee Savings Banks Act, 1989 , that is intended to enable a person to obtain payment from the bank of the sum specified in the document,

(f) a credit transfer or another mode of payment whereby an amount is credited to an account specified by the employee concerned,

(g) cash,

(h) any other mode of payment standing specified for the time being by regulations made by the Minister after consultation with the Minister for Finance.

(2) Where wages fall to be paid to an employee by a mode other than cash at a time when, owing to a strike or other industrial action affecting a financial institution, cash is not readily available to the employee, the employer concerned shall, if the employee consents, pay the wages by another mode (other than cash) specified in subsection (1) and, if the employee does not so consent, pay them in cash.

(3) An employer who pays wages to an employee otherwise than by a mode specified in subsection (1) or contravenes subsection (2) shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000.

So my reading from that is that your employer has to pay into whatever account you specify, failure to do so could result in a £1,000 fine.

I'd inquire further about this policy before going down any legal route though, is it that they are unable or unwilling to do so?. I'd also argue that any SEPA account is a domestic account.

mickoneill31

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

Payment of Wages Act, 1991.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1991/act/25/enacted/en/html

Section 2 pertains to modes:



So my reading from that is that your employer has to pay into whatever account you specify, failure to do so could result in a £1,000 fine.

I'd inquire further about this policy before going down any legal route though, is it that they are unable or unwilling to do so?. I'd also argue that any SEPA account is a domestic account.

In line one it says one or more. So they can pay by cheque and be compliant.

Nichard Dixon

An employer can pay in cash, but if they pay by credit transfer I doubt if they can prescribe what bank the employee should use, this is the employee's business.

davo10

Legal route? In the greater scheme of employee problems, I suspect this ranks at the very bottom. Op set up a standing order, there may be times when you need money in your Irish account and it would be easy to suspend the SO if you need to. Also, if you ever want to apply for credit/mortgage etc, it would benefit you with your bank to have some money on deposit and a history of regular lodgements/savings.

With IBANs fully implemented now there should be no obstacle to paying into any EU account. Indeed it would seem wrong under EU law to discriminate based on the Member State in which the employees bank account is located.

Its not the employees fault that the payroll systems at his employers are obsolete and probably still work on sort codes.

With computer banking there is no reason for the OP to open an irish bank account. Indeed PC banking in many of the European banks is light years ahead that offered by Irish banks.

Asmooh

Stheno wrote: »

What concerns do you have around privacy?

all of them, they are not clear enough.

Stheno

Asmooh wrote: »

all of them, they are not clear enough.

That doesn't make any sense tbh what speecifically is your issue?

Stheno

[Deleted User] wrote: »

With IBANs fully implemented now there should be no obstacle to paying into any EU account. Indeed it would seem wrong under EU law to discriminate based on the Member State in which the employees bank account is located.

Its not the employees fault that the payroll systems at his employers are obsolete and probably still work on sort codes.

With computer banking there is no reason for the OP to open an irish bank account. Indeed PC banking in many of the European banks is light years ahead that offered by Irish banks.

Not all EU countries are part of Sepa though?

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

Not all EU countries are part of Sepa though?

All EU states, plus the former EFSA ones as well.

Asmooh

Stheno wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense tbh what speecifically is your issue?

I want to know who has access to my transaction history except me and the bank.
Who can request information about me, when and what I used my card for.
What goverments can just request anything they want without a court order and the bank will just apply with it.


All those things.

Stheno

Deleted User wrote: »

All EU states, plus the former EFSA ones as well.

Thanks, didn't realise the extent of it, thought the Uk was not in it for one

PaddyTheNth

At a stretch there could be human trafficking concerns on the employer's part if they're asked to pay to a foreign bank account, but these concerns are more commonly around wages paid in cash or multiple employees paid into the same bank account.

PaddyTheNth

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

At a stretch there could be human trafficking concerns on the employer's part if they're asked to pay to a foreign bank account,

That would be a Ginormous stretch...wouldnt stand up.

endagibson

He could set up a standing order from his Irish bank account. Of course, his Irish bank will then charge him every time the standing order activates.

Op, be reasonable to the employer. Give no details for your Irish bank account. Offer them the option of paying you via your foreign bank account or by cheque. The choice is theirs as to how they want to proceed.

Mrs OBumble

OP, realistically, how much do you want to piss-off your HR department.

One Irish bank account, one standing order. Hardly a privacy nightmare.

Frankly, if I was your employer and you asked for something like that which my poayroll software couldn't do, then I would start paying you by cheque and making the cheque-cashing your problem.

Eugene Norman

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

An employer can pay in cash, but if they pay by credit transfer I doubt if they can prescribe what bank the employee should use, this is the employee's business.

Of course they can. F doesn't imply that any account worldwide can be used, or that any account can be used because there are other payment options.

Victor

Asmooh wrote: »

I want to know who has access to my transaction history except me and the bank.
Who can request information about me, when and what I used my card for.
What goverments can just request anything they want without a court order and the bank will just apply with it.


All those things.

See the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003.

Anyone can request anything. However, an order will only be granted where there is a good reason to grant it. Obvious cases would be Revenue or the Department of Social Protection, both of whom would be more interested in income than expenditure. The Garda could request an order if they can demonstrate a connection with an investigation.

In theory, their foreign equivalents could ask for the same, but there would be more hoops to jump through. I imagine this would be no different to the Dutch situation.

If you are engaged in tax fraud or some other nefarious activity, well, we're not going to help you.

Log9

Asmooh wrote: »

I want to know who has access to my transaction history except me and the bank.
Who can request information about me, when and what I used my card for.
What goverments can just request anything they want without a court order and the bank will just apply with it.


All those things.

Similar to almost any other Western European country. There are fairly significant safeguards in place under banking regulations and data protection law.

However, the Revenue Commissioners can access them as part of an investigation and very large lodgements / deposits are notified by the bank to revenue.

There's nothing particularly lacking or unusual about Irish data protection or anti money laundering laws.

Are you trying to launder money or take large payments for income you're not declaring? something!!??

That would quite likely be caught by Dutch and Irish authorities anyway. Similar rules apply in all EU countries and they've been enhanced due to concerns about finding terrorism in recent months.

Unless you're up to something very dodgy with your finances, you really haven't anything to worry about.

You can also be sure the SEPA system is being monitored and tapped into by various international security agencies - especially the US, UK, France and so on.

It sounds like your employer is just blissfully unaware that they can pay to any SEPA account with cost or complication. They would have moved their payroll to SEPA and away from the older national system last year but a lot of organisations still haven't quite comprehended that they can use it cost free.

The only current issue is that the national Direct Debit scheme setup is electronic and can be done automatically over the phone or online by Irish account holders where as non Irish accounts need a paper mandate as there's no system for a SEPA version of "Direct Debit Plus" at present.

For credits, they just need an account number.

Where they might have concerns is around your state of residence for calculating your income tax. Although, that is deducted at source if you're paying PAYE. It isn't really their problem as long as you've Irish tax credits setup.

Bear in mind that if you've an Irish income paid to a Dutch account and you're still officially resident in NL, it's the Dutch tax authorities who will be interested, not the Irish ones.

There's a double taxation agreement but where Irish income tax is lower, you'd be potentially required to file a return and pay the difference to NL.

Asmooh

Victor wrote: »

Bear in mind that if you've an Irish income paid to a Dutch account and you're still officially resident in NL, it's the Dutch tax authorities who will be interested, not the Irish ones.

Im not living in The netherlands anymore, just dont want to use irish accounts because of the high fees.

Tazz T

OP is within his right to nominate a bank account within the SEPA zone for his wages to be paid into. It's normal practice. His company just can't be bothered doing it for him. It's akin to the firm telling him they can only pay to a bank account of their choosing.

Legally, he may have some recourse under REGULATION (EU) No 260/2012 which states that an employer can't refuse payment to a European SEPA account.

Get in touch with the Central Bank of Ireland for clarification.

Kristopherus

Asmooh wrote: »

Im not living in The netherlands anymore, just dont want to use irish accounts because of the high fees.

Use Permanent TSB or Ulster Bank. No fees for personal account holders.

Log9

Kristopherus wrote: »

Use Permanent TSB or Ulster Bank. No fees for personal account holders.

Yeah you've also got KBC and also Wirecard bank of you're not bothered about cash transactions.

Log9

Tazz T wrote: »

OP is within his right to nominate a bank account within the SEPA zone for his wages to be paid into. It's normal practice. His company just can't be bothered doing it for him. It's akin to the firm telling him they can only pay to a bank account of their choosing.

Legally, he may have some recourse under REGULATION (EU) No 260/2012 which states that an employer can't refuse payment to a European SEPA account.

Get in touch with the Central Bank of Ireland for clarification.

There's no technical reason why they can't. It's even worse than "Computa says no" as they haven't even attempted it.

It's likely / certain their payment system won't care what bank details are entered as long as there's a valid IBAN. (BIC is still required but it's not going to be for much longer)

I've had similar issues on the continent. A Belgian utility flatly refused to setup a debit to an Irish account. I quoted everything at them in terms of legislation and they just hung up on me.

Also had major issues using an Irish debit card for recurring payments in Spain.
That being said, I had someone refuse my Spanish debit card in Spain because she couldn't understand why I had a Spanish card and no Spanish ID card and wouldn't accept my passport as ID so I had to abandon an entire trolley of groceries. She then started telling me if I didn't put all the groceries back, she'd call the police!!!

Such a welcoming attitude towards people spending money in your community and creating demand for services. Xenophobia is horrible to be on the receiving end of.

SEPA works in theory but you find some bureaucracies are just totally unaware of it.

There is a genuine issue with Direct Debit plus authorisations though, so paper mandates are required.

Asmooh

I got an email back

Dear Asmooh,
Our payroll system does not allow us to enter international bank accounts. Also as per the policy all employees need to get paid on or before the 28th and paying into international bank accounts would not meet the criteria. I understand your frustration, but unfortunately it is not something that we can accommodate.
Thank you,

Log9

Asmooh wrote: »

I got an email back

Still doesn't make any sense. They key a SEPA account for Irish transactions. There is absolutely no distinction between an IE and NL account. All the processing is absolutely identical. The date makes no difference.

That or there using some real mess of a system that's using Irish sort codes and 8 digit numbers and then translating them ...

They clearly think it's a problem when in reality it isn't.

I don't think you'll get anywhere though. These company bureaucracies can be even less flexible than state ones.

Diamond Doll

I work in finance/payroll, and with our accounting system, we prepare a bulk payments file for monthly payroll which is uploaded onto our online banking system for approval. This can only be done for payments to Irish bank accounts - any payments to other countries need to be uploaded and approved separately.

Which isn't a particularly massive deal, but it's still hassle, and it complicates the audit trail. Plus of course there's additional charges involved.

Asmooh

Diamond Doll wrote: »

I work in finance/payroll, and with our accounting system, we prepare a bulk payments file for monthly payroll which is uploaded onto our online banking system for approval. This can only be done for payments to Irish bank accounts - any payments to other countries need to be uploaded and approved separately.

Which isn't a particularly massive deal, but it's still hassle, and it complicates the audit trail. Plus of course there's additional charges involved.

So there is something wrong with the payroll system?

Log9

Asmooh wrote: »

So there is something wrong with the payroll system?

Sure, as per most pan-EU things it takes years for people to realise they actually work and they're implemented in a half-arsed way.

France and Belgium for example didn't really bother to implement the 112 emergency number for example.

I've had UK call centres asking me if I was using "Irish Euros" or "French Euros" because there were two different prices and they actually thought they were different currencies, rather than that they were just shafting us.

Diamond Doll

Asmooh wrote: »

So there is something wrong with the payroll system?

No, it's actually the online banking system that would reject the file. So not something we'd have control over.

I have a friend with a Deutsche Bank account abroad. It is technically WAY better than the offerings of the irish banks, and free too, and has nice credit card and investment arrangements.

Why should the OP be forced, contrary to Irish and EU law, to use an inferior product just because his employers systems are antiquated?

Diamond Doll

Diamond Doll wrote: »

No, it's actually the online banking system that would reject the file. So not something we'd have control over.

So, Irish banks are putting up obstacles to people using non-Irish banks...
Who would have thought it....

blindside88

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have a friend with a Deutsche Bank account abroad. It is technically WAY better than the offerings of the irish banks, and free too, and has nice credit card and investment arrangements.

Why should the OP be forced, contrary to Irish and EU law, to use an inferior product just because his employers systems are antiquated?

He is not being forced to do anything contrary to Irish or EU law. If the employer wished they can pay him by cheque and let him worry about cashing it. The phase mountain and molehill comes to mind

mickoneill31

The op was initially concerned with Irish privacy. Now he's concerned with high fees.
Irish privacy law and data protection is amongst the best in Europe. Yes I'm sure revenue and the Guards have legal ways of accessing your details if they suspect you're doing something dodgy.
High fees can be gotten around as previous posters have shown with different accounts.

All of this could be solved by just putting it in your application letter something like "If successful in this role I will require my wages to be sent to my foreign bank account". Then it's simple. Either he's great and worth the messing about or the CV goes in the bin. Everybodys happy.

Asmooh

mickoneill31 wrote: »

The op was initially concerned with Irish privacy. Now he's concerned with high fees.
Irish privacy law and data protection is amongst the best in Europe. Yes I'm sure revenue and the Guards have legal ways of accessing your details if they suspect you're doing something dodgy.
High fees can be gotten around as previous posters have shown with different accounts.

All of this could be solved by just putting it in your application letter something like "If successful in this role I will require my wages to be sent to my foreign bank account". Then it's simple. Either he's great and worth the messing about or the CV goes in the bin. Everybodys happy.

I think it should be just a rule that anyone can choose the account they want to get paid into, sure I can transfer it every month but it would be nicer if they could just transfer to any account

toadfly

OP it seems to me that you are being difficult for the sake of it. I work in Payroll and we only pay our Irish staff into Irish accounts. As another poster said, banks wont accept an international transfer with our bulk Irish payment run.

Just set up a PTSB account, I have one and dont pay any fees.

You seem to be looking for issues where there really arent any.

Asmooh

toadfly wrote: »

OP it seems to me that you are being difficult for the sake of it. I work in Payroll and we only pay our Irish staff into Irish accounts. As another poster said, banks wont accept an international transfer with our bulk Irish payment run.

Just set up a PTSB account, I have one and dont pay any fees.

You seem to be looking for issues where there really arent any.

why do they always need to call you? I dont have time to call all the time for every single little thing.

toadfly

Asmooh wrote: »

why do they always need to call you? I dont have time to call all the time for every single little thing.

Who needs to call me?