Poachers caught in Laois

old n grey

Hi not been out in a while but grapevine suggests two caught poaching in laois side of slieve blooms in last month or so . Any share?

Cass

Have heard nothing.

Seen this a little while back.

richiedel123

old n grey wrote: »

Hi not been out in a while but grapevine suggests two caught poaching in laois side of slieve blooms in last month or so . Any share?

Heard something about people being followed stopped and searched but as far as I know they had nothing so they were let on their way. Not local to the area either

garrettod

Cass wrote: »

....Seen this a little while back.

I see the first four men referened in the story were released without charge, any word on the second guys ?

The first four guys must have had some fantastic explanation for being out at night with poaching equipment and not one of them from anywhere near Donegal.

keano25

garrettod wrote: »

I see the first four men referened in the story were released without charge, any word on the second guys ?

The first four guys must have had some fantastic explanation for being out at night with poaching equipment and not one of them from anywhere near Donegal.

Released without charge, pending the result of a file to the DPP may still be summonsed to court.

arrowloopboy

Simple solution ,tagging system ,but then again we'ed need 1 civil servant per 1 hunter/scroat for all the forms,like the farmers,so I won't star hanging by the balls just yet:eek:.

clivej

arrowloopboy wrote: »

Simple solution ,tagging system ,but then again we'ed need 1 civil servant per 1 hunter/scroat for all the forms,like the farmers,so I won't star hanging by the balls just yet:eek:.

And how exactly will that stop any poaching in anyway.

If you think about it the poacher won't have...........
A deer license
A deer caliber rifle
Or shoot within the daylight hours

OR any sort of a new tagging system that is introduced

garrettod

Hi,

Sorry, but I don't think it's a tagging system thats needed.... as I don't think it's the licenced hunters that are causing the problem here.

Far more serious penalties for those caught (both jail time and significant financial penalties), would act as a partial deterrant and also, help fund more resources to help catch those still poaching in the future.

Sadly, this is just another poor reflection on our current legal system...

Capercaillie

Hard to prove when somebody is poaching. Have to catch them in the act. All they have to say is they were out lamping foxes, even if they have a deer caliber rifle. I know a lad who was found "lamping" for foxes, just before the deer season started with a deer caliber rifle.

garv123

So I have a .243.. I lamp foxes.. Am I automatically assumed to be lamping deer when out with it?

What the difference between "poaching equipment" and fox shooting equipment?

Gonehawking

garv123 wrote: »

So I have a .243.. I lamp foxes.. Am I automatically assumed to be lamping deer when out with it?

What the difference between "poaching equipment" and fox shooting equipment?

Very good point!!!!

J.R.

garv123 wrote: »

So I have a .243.. I lamp foxes.. Am I automatically assumed to be lamping deer when out with it?

What the difference between "poaching equipment" and fox shooting equipment?

Exactly - and everybody should be assumed innocent until proven guilty.

I know friends who used to do a lot of very successful fox lamping but have more or les stopped completely now ..................as they fear they will be accused of deer poaching.

Vulture 1

[qImote="J.R.;98020245"]Exactly - and everybody should be assumed innocent until proven guilty.

I know friends who used to do a lot of very successful fox lamping but have more or les stopped completely now ..................as they fear they will be accused of deer poaching.[/quote]

Used to put the run on lads or report the regs of lads lamping with lurchers and guns up my way I know all local legitimate fox shooters so I was
Confident of not picking on the wrong guys.
Was out one night and keeping an eye on a crowd in a van with lurchers any way met a car who I know was a local farmer i could tell he was watching the lads as well.
The route the van took brought us around in a circle and I met the farmer again heading home.
So rolled down the windows for a chat turned out he was watching the boys too but when he saw me he taught I was with them so he didn't bother with them.
This incident stopped me and my night patrols
If I hadn't have met him he would have been at the pub and maybe mentioned to someone else that he met me out lamping. And say the boys in the van did do damage who would get the blame. It doesn't take much for your name to be blackened.

Kat1170

Do away with cash sales. Simple as that. Can't understand how in this day and age game dealers are allowed to work that, especially as they aren't exactly working in pennies.

Same goes for scrap metal. Remove cash from the equation and most of the problems disappear overnight.

Anybody doing either legally won't mind being paid by cheque or straight into their bank acc.

Cass

Do the game dealers now not have to ask for the game handling course certificate? This means someone would have to have done the NARGC course, meet the requirements for being a game meat dealer, and keep records, etc.

I know everyone says "sure'll the dealers will just take it", but i'm struggling to believe that with the risks associated with taking in unregistered/untraceable game meat that anyone that does this for a living (meat handlers, not hunters) would risk their business.

So if this is the case then all the meat sold has to be accounted for and as such there must be some way to verify who has a deer license, who does not, and then follow up with those that don't to ask where they are getting the meat/carcasses from.

garv123

Cass wrote: »

Do the game dealers now not have to ask for the game handling course certificate? This means someone would have to have done the NARGC course, meet the requirements for being a game meat dealer, and keep records, etc.

I know everyone says "sure'll the dealers will just take it", but i'm struggling to believe that with the risks associated with taking in unregistered/untraceable game meat that anyone that does this for a living (meat handlers, not hunters) would risk their business.

So if this is the case then all the meat sold has to be accounted for and as such there must be some way to verify who has a deer license, who does not, and then follow up with those that don't to ask where they are getting the meat/carcasses from.

Yup need a course and the deer is tagged w
With the hunters name and trained hunter cert on it so really the powers to be can easily find out who's selling what.

Taking out the genuine game dealers won't fix it (yes they exist). Its the fellas with ways around it are the problem.

Cass

garv123 wrote: »

Taking out the genuine game dealers won't fix it (yes they exist).

Agreed, and i'm not suggesting they should be. I hold what would be considered and unpopular view in that i don't have a problem with a lad selling a few deer (i mean a few, not hundreds). If the government don't want it to happen then ban the sale of it, make people pay for the deer license, or tax it so that it doesn't pay to sell them. Then it'll stop (well be reduced anyway).

As i said i don't have problem with anyone selling a few deer. It's not something i've done myself, but i don't begrudge someone recovering a few bob from selling a few. However i draw the line at the point where it turns from selling a couple to trying to make a living from it. As in selling hundreds.

Its the fellas with ways around it are the problem.

That is what i was asking. How? Maybe i'm a bit naive, but i cannot see how it can be bypassed. Are they selling direct to butchers? If so the butcher is taking a serious risk. Are they selling to an intermediary? Same risk to them.

I just cannot get my head around how they sell them, and not at the rate i've heard some tell me they do.

garv123

Cass wrote: »

Agreed, and i'm not suggesting they should be. I hold what would be considered and unpopular view in that i don't have a problem with a lad selling a few deer (i mean a few, not hundreds). If the government don't want it to happen then ban the sale of it, make people pay for the deer license, or tax it so that it doesn't pay to sell them. Then it'll stop (well be reduced anyway).

As i said i don't have problem with anyone selling a few deer. It's not something i've done myself, but i don't begrudge someone recovering a few bob from selling a few. However i draw the line at the point where it turns from selling a couple to trying to make a living from it. As in selling hundreds.


That is what i was asking. How? Maybe i'm a bit naive, but i cannot see how it can be bypassed. Are they selling direct to butchers? If so the butcher is taking a serious risk. Are they selling to an intermediary? Same risk to them.

I just cannot get my head around how they sell them, and not at the rate i've heard some tell me they do.

The NPWS are no longer supplying tags, game dealers must get their own since this year I think..
I considered doing the course to have it if I wanted to sell the odd few surplus to requirement but its not worth it for the dozen or so Id shoot a season.

Whats stopping one lad doing the course and signing off for 10 other lads?
Game dealers puts the deer down in his own name saying he shot it? or he uses a name and number belong to another lad who shoots a few and he has his details maybe? how will the other guy find out the dealers is using his name and cert? Not sure must the cheque be in the suppliers name to to keep books straight?

All small ways around it from my looking at it. but im hearing all about these dealers who take deer with no certs.. lots of this is just words from pissed off lads on the internet though with no proof..

I know of a game dealer whos often struggles to get in enough to keep business going.. and thats only 10-15 a week..

wexfordman2

clivej wrote: »

And how exactly will that stop any poaching in anyway.

If you think about it the poacher won't have...........
A deer license
A deer caliber rifle
Or shoot within the daylight hours

OR any sort of a new tagging system that is introduced

Makes poaching more difficult, and the simple fact of being stopped with an untagged carcass would be suffeceint proof.

Also, ensuring game dealers have tags for every carcass ensures proper accounting of culls, and identification of those who are culling large numbers.

Vulture 1

Gamedealers are here to stay fact.

There are estates in this country carrying culls of animal s every year that amount to hundreds if not thousands of animals.

What are they to do with the meat leave it rot?

There are plenty of lads with plenty of shooting putting in animals to gamedealers every week there is no law against that either. If they are honest working people I don't see anything wrong with that. Cover their bullets put diesel in the jeep what ever.

But then you have the cute fella on social welfare. He is out every day got his meat handling course for nothing because he on jobseekers don't yu know. These are the fellas doin the damage.

You do have poaching going on at night but they get caught in the end or they get a fright where they shoot a cow or a horse or something.

wexfordman2

Vulture 1 wrote: »

Gamedealers are here to stay fact.

There are estates in this country carrying culls of animal s every year that amount to hundreds if not thousands of animals.

What are they to do with the meat leave it rot?

There are plenty of lads with plenty of shooting putting in animals to gamedealers every week there is no law against that either. If they are honest working people I don't see anything wrong with that. Cover their bullets put diesel in the jeep what ever.

But then you have the cute fella on social welfare. He is out every day got his meat handling course for nothing because he on jobseekers don't yu know. These are the fellas doin the damage.

You do have poaching going on at night but they get caught in the end or they get a fright where they shoot a cow or a horse or something.

Ah jaysus!!!!

Grizzly 45

How to get around it as a game dealer??Simply work the max fine that can be imposed on you into the years annnual busisness expenses!A DC can only impose a monetary fine ,I think of 20 k.Seeing that this is a non jailable offence ASFIK,thats all the judge can do.There is a story of one GD doen in the Munster region who whern caught and fined in court had the cash with him there and then,paid it and continued on his merry way. IF these guys are handling that many carcasses and selling the premum bits,being the strip loins and oysters at top dollar,while considering the rest of the meat second grade and just extra sugar on a carcass sale.What is their turnover PA? It must be up in the hundreds of thousands. This is basically like a blood diamond scenario.The shooters are the poor sods toiling in the muck for a hopeful big stone,which when they find it sell it to the GD,who pays in reality a pittance per carcass,and makes his money back and profit on the premium cuts.
There are three ways to shut this down.

1] Make the game handling course cert as valid as it should be in the EU.Which over there is if you want to commercially sell bits of deer or other game that you have to set up a correct butchering facility etc.BUT if you want to sell a whole carcass to a resturant you can too.And then you would see what the price you are getting from the GD middle man and end user is. Here it is as usual just another layer of paperwork with a Cover Somone Else's Ass whiff about it.

2] Lock down any commercial sales of wild deer here for at least five years. IF there is such a demand for it ,then somone will see the point in opening up commercial deer farms to supply the market to supply game dealers.
In the US it is absolutely ilegal to sell wild deer for commercial gain.You can gift it,or use it for personal consumption,but not sell it. This will also give the herds a chance to recover and hopefully get the money hungry FKers out of it where they might find somthing more lucrative to go and abuse.

One shot on kill

Cass wrote: »

If the government don't want it to happen then ban the sale of it, make people pay for the deer license, or tax it so that it doesn't pay to sell them. Then it'll stop (well be reduced anyway).

i don't begrudge someone recovering a few bob from selling a few. However i draw the line at the point where it turns from selling a couple to trying to make a living from it. As in selling hundreds

Can you see the sinario when you put these to comments together. And yes I think you are being a little blind to the fact that as irish we have an ingenuous ability to get around nearly any law and find a way to scam it.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

2] Lock down any commercial sales of wild deer here for at least five years. IF there is such a demand for it ,then somone will see the point in opening up commercial deer farms to supply the market to supply game dealers.
In the US it is absolutely ilegal to sell wild deer for commercial gain.You can gift it,or use it for personal consumption,but not sell it. This will also give the herds a chance to recover and hopefully get the money hungry FKers out of it where they might find somthing more lucrative to go and abuse.

No pint in comparing us to the US or to Eastern Europe as they have a completely different system for control every thing that is shot not just what is done with the carcass and untill ireland cops on an comes on par at that end nearly everything else is a waste of time and money.

The only reason why the meat handlers coarse was introduced is to trace every penny you ever earn to tax you on it. It's not for the deers sake and that's for sure.

The problem I see is no one gives a **** so try make them. And the people that do give a **** can't do anything about it anyway because the country is designed that way. So the scam artist survives and the working man is beating to the ground in any and every means possible.

Cass

One shot on kill wrote: »

Can you see the sinario when you put these to comments together. And yes I think you are being a little blind to the fact that as irish we have an ingenuous ability to get around nearly any law and find a way to scam it. .

I'm throwing out ideas, not saying everything i say should be implemented.

I'm not blind to how people get around a situation, some of them should be on the Crystal Maze they're that good, but there is a difference between a lad selling one to five deer a year and the "legal poacher" that earns up to €18,000+ per year at the same game. We all know people that do this. Say they are for conservation, etc. then make more in a year than some do working a 9-5 job.

My point, that you quoted, was if the Government (via the NPWS) give out free licenses, and up until the introduction of the game/meat handling course, don't care how many you shoot or what you do with the deer after then what chance have we to spot the ways things are.

I know this thread is about poaching, illegal poaching, with no deer gun and no deer license. Well much like the illegal guns in the country that is beyond our (shooting community) ability to prevent or stop. It's the job of An Gardaí with the NPWS. By implementing stricter controls for legal shooters it makes it harder for the illegal ones to get around any new rules/laws. Now ordinarily i'm not a fan of stricter controls for a problem that is not caused by us, but in this scenario there are too few laws in place. It could do with tightening up.

The idea about the tags is shot down each time it comes up without ever once having being tried. Well introduce them, try them and see what happens instead of nay saying and shooting it down before it gets a chance to be ran. Same with some of the points Grizzly made. If you try enough things something will have an effect.

Anyone that thinks it can be eliminated altogether is naive. I mean if we had 100,000 Gardaí do you think all crime would stop. Would it feck. However we cannot be sure of the impact of some schemes until they are tried.

Grizzly 45

I think alot of people dont actually understand how the tag system works in the US,but ASFAIK ,alot of it has to do with what type of firearm or weapon you are going to go hunting with too. Seeing that they have primitive weapons seasons too,[IE bow,Xbow, muzzle loader,Spear! in one or two states].It is more to give the bow hunters and primitive weapons lads a chance first at the unspooked game at the start of the season and then allows modern firearms later on,and it has more to do with poaching,or lads messing about by shooting deer and then running an arrow thru them to claim it was a bow kill. But as for the tags themselves ,you can buy as many as you like within the State law and so can your entire family.And some fammlies actually live off deer for the entire Winter from what they hunt.As you cant sell venison in any shape or form over there...Although they are looking at that now as well,because any commercial venison in the US is an import product,and the deer herds are getting to pest porportions in some states as well.

Next on the tags are the trophy tags for exotics like big horn sheep or bears, etc. This can get intresting as it is a lottery with an auction on a limited supply of tags.You bid if you want as a state resident on a trophy tag.But it it is an auction,a rich out of stater might trump all the residents bids and cash in on the trophy.Or the lottery is simply everyone buys the trophy tag at nominal price and ,its a state lottery as to who draws the first five tags.You dont have to use the tag from the lottery yourself ,it can be sold or bid at auction too by you.

So how will this work over here? Well, we dont have any primitive weapons seasons so thats one of the main reasons out. Nor do we have any really exotics here either,maybe a genuine Kerry red stag,which would be a smart way to do the cull possibly? So that just leaves us with bag limits..Ok well and good,but kind of then negated bya section 42,if a game harvester can convince some farmer to get to sign off on for his farm. Cost of setting it up..The US Fish& game tags are pretty high tech, tamper proof tags that will even detect lead traces on the carcass if issued for primitive weapons that must be applied to the carcass in the field and has to stay on the carcass to butchering.We dont have to go that high tech,but it will have to be tamper proof and pretty difficult to forge...Hands up all those willing to pay more tax euros on a box of ammo or whatever to finance this project???And going by the Irish govts record of projects involving hunting and shooting on forgability ,etc..Welll a look at our gun liscenses tells its own tale.:pac:
While not a bad idea,I just see it as being a costly idea to set up ,where we will be short changed because they wont put the money into to do it right,and spend 80% of it on administration and 20% on the actual needed bit of the tag itself and its design which wont deter the poachers in the least.It always boils down to the money.

hexosan

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I think alot of people dont actually understand how the tag system works in the US,but ASFAIK ,alot of it has to do with what type of firearm or weapon you are going to go hunting with too. Seeing that they have primitive weapons seasons too,[IE bow,Xbow, muzzle loader,Spear! in one or two states].It is more to give the bow hunters and primitive weapons lads a chance first at the unspooked game at the start of the season and then allows modern firearms later on,and it has more to do with poaching,or lads messing about by shooting deer and then running an arrow thru them to claim it was a bow kill. But as for the tags themselves ,you can buy as many as you like within the State law and so can your entire family.And some fammlies actually live off deer for the entire Winter from what they hunt.As you cant sell venison in any shape or form over there...Although they are looking at that now as well,because any commercial venison in the US is an import product,and the deer herds are getting to pest porportions in some states as well.

Next on the tags are the trophy tags for exotics like big horn sheep or bears, etc. This can get intresting as it is a lottery with an auction on a limited supply of tags.You bid if you want as a state resident on a trophy tag.But it it is an auction,a rich out of stater might trump all the residents bids and cash in on the trophy.Or the lottery is simply everyone buys the trophy tag at nominal price and ,its a state lottery as to who draws the first five tags.You dont have to use the tag from the lottery yourself ,it can be sold or bid at auction too by you.

So how will this work over here? Well, we dont have any primitive weapons seasons so thats one of the main reasons out. Nor do we have any really exotics here either,maybe a genuine Kerry red stag,which would be a smart way to do the cull possibly? So that just leaves us with bag limits..Ok well and good,but kind of then negated bya section 42,if a game harvester can convince some farmer to get to sign off on for his farm. Cost of setting it up..The US Fish& game tags are pretty high tech, tamper proof tags that will even detect lead traces on the carcass if issued for primitive weapons that must be applied to the carcass in the field and has to stay on the carcass to butchering.We dont have to go that high tech,but it will have to be tamper proof and pretty difficult to forge...Hands up all those willing to pay more tax euros on a box of ammo or whatever to finance this project???And going by the Irish govts record of projects involving hunting and shooting on forgability ,etc..Welll a look at our gun liscenses tells its own tale.:pac:
While not a bad idea,I just see it as being a costly idea to set up ,where we will be short changed because they wont put the money into to do it right,and spend 80% of it on administration and 20% on the actual needed bit of the tag itself and its design which wont deter the poachers in the least.It always boils down to the money.

Your math on the percentages is slightly off it should read: admin 99% actually need 1%

arrowloopboy

The tag system works pretty well for Salmon,its basically illegal to sell wild Atlantic Salmon,period .
Tag systems work all over the world,but it wouldn't work here ,b0llox :rolleyes:.

Grizzly 45

Errr...ALLL over the world??? Its only used ASFIK in the US/Canada.Europe doesnt have it,and doesnt need it because they have had systems in place for centuries that work against poaching.As for Illegal wild atlantic salmon with tags..I must ask the lads about that next time I meet a few of them with gil nets at 0230 coming home via my land from poaching the Tailrace and Shannon confluence.[Which is BTW one of the most poached streches of Inland water] And they offer me a salmon as a bribe.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Not saying it wont work,but are we as hunters willing to pay for it??And going by past experiances of Govt handling of things like this will we get somthing thats effective,or just get somthing slapped together that isnt fit for purpose and expensive?

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not saying it wont work,but are we as hunters willing to pay for it??And going by past experiances of Govt handling of things like this will we get somthing thats effective,or just get somthing slapped together that isnt fit for purpose and expensive?

I understand where you're coming from, but sitting on our hands and doing nothing is not working either. So as i said above:

Cass wrote: »

The idea about the tags is shot down each time it comes up without ever once having being tried. Well introduce them, try them and see what happens instead of nay saying and shooting it down before it gets a chance to be ran.

As it stands it's a free license, no control, no money to enforce the laws that are there, and no accountability. It needs to start somewhere.

outdoors247

I'm not in a great area for deer shooting but a good place for sea trout and salmon fishing and theirs plenty of fellas around who will get ya a salmon or 3 or 4 trout every day if you would pay for it even though salmon are catch and release and you can't keep more than two trout a day so maybe that's how poachers are selling their venison in the local pub or just trough friends of friends .a tagging system only stops people who actually want to follow the law

Cass

But it has not even gotten a chance to fail here. Implement it, try it and if it works or helps then great. However to say something won't work without evr trying it is not the way to go.

outdoors247

I'm just saying poachers either fishing or hunting won't be bothers by a tagging system when the people there selling to aren't game dealers

Cass

Fishing, at least for this forum, is a moot point. I'm only interested in deer.

What i'm saying about a tag system is if we introduce one then it leaves no room for bullsh*t if someone is stopped with a deer an no tag. I'm under no illusions that a tag system will not stop poaching, nothing that anyone has tried in any country will. However the legal hunters among us will and should welcome any methods that make it harder for those working outside the law to do what they do.

As always i'm spit balling here so excuse me if i haven't thought this through completely, but something like a certain amount of tags per person. For those using deer for personal use they get (example) yellow tags and those wishing to sell get green tags. Those with "commercial tags" must produce a copy of their trained hunter cert before the tags are issued. Now if anyone is stopped with a deer(s) the ranger knows from a glance that it's commercial or personal. For those with green/commercial tags they've already shown their cert so can sell them. At the game dealer the dealer does his usual checks including the tag number & colour against the records of the person selling.The seller also must record not only the deer, where it was shot, etc ( as they must already do according to what i'e read about the trained hunter course) but the tag they have given to the deer and what dealer took that deer & tag from them. We now have traceability.

Anyone with a personal tag cannot sell, and if they go to a dealer the dealer MUST refuse. If they use all their tags they may apply for more, or may do so at the start of the season. Any unused tags MUST be returned with that years return figures. All of this will again help to get truer figures for cull numbers and not the makey-uppy ones that must surely be going on.

Anyone without tags at all is up sh*t creek.

The tags themselves are not expensive and if they incurred a small fee would it really be the end of the world seeing as how we get all this for free as it is. The fee could be as small as €5 for say ten tags. Use this a base setting. IOW everyone gets 10 and if they want more they request it and pay for them. When i worked in a transport company we used such tags for deliveries. As the driver went to each store the existing tag was broken (cannot be opened once in place without breaking it) and signed for by the store manager and driver. The manager would then place the next tag on the door of the trailer and this would continue until the driver made his last delivery. If anything went missing between stores/tags the driver and manager that signed the last tag would be held responsible. It made the driver and manager more alert to making sure that they had received all their order and not something they should not have. Very effective system.

Now i already know what some of ye are thinking as i'm thinking of it myself. This won't stop poachers. Well frankly nothing is stopping them now. However if a ranger catches a lad now he must prove the animal was shot illegally (at night, under a lamp, without deer legal rifle, etc) but a tag is a quick and instant way of showing if something is not right IOW there is no way of talking yourself out of a deer with no tag. For the dealers it adds another layer of administration and will hopefully make them more aware to taking illegally shot deer.

For those that take deer illegally (not game dealers) well as with poaching the tag system will not stop this, but as things stand it's happening anyway. Now if an inspector goes to a butchers or anyone suspected of illegally processing game meat they have an immediate and visual way to check to deer and the legality of them by looking for tags.

All of the above requires the co-operation of hunters, improved finances for rangers and inspectors of game handlers/processors, etc. It's not ideal and will not end poaching. However i, as a stalker/hunter, would have no trouble in such a system. Plus, ans this is key, it's start. Something is being done, at source, to stop this scourge rather than year after year of moaning with nothing being done and dismissing ideas before they ever have a chance to succeed or fail as the case may be.

outdoors247

I was just using fish as an example ya that would work to give solid evidence against them in a court case so why haven't the deer shooters raised an idea like this with the gaurds or who ever controls deer shooting it couldn't be that hard to get some system up and running

Cass

Honestly, id say no one wants to rock the boat.

For years we have had it too good. Free licenses, free deer, free game, and for some free income. So suggesting anything that would upset this, to some, is not what they want. Now we have a few deer associations and i'm not a member of any of them so i don't know how proactive they are in making such suggestions and liasoning with the NPWS on matters concerning stamping out poaching. However my comments are not aimed at their actions (as i've no idea what they do) but based on the responses i've gotten from people over the years from taking to them. The complete and utter rejection of anything that would upset the current situation kinda surprised me at first. I could not understand their complete, and i mean complete, dislike for any sort of rules, tags or system to try and curb this poaching problem at first.

The way i see it now is it's one of the following reasons as to why lads don't want change:

1. Some with no ulterior motives simply cannot be arsed with the tags or paperwork associated to a new system.
2. Some simply don't want to pay, even a nominal fee, for what they currently get for free.
3. Some that sell the occasional deer that do not want a light shined on what they do as selling deer is classed as being "dirty" or not a real hunter.
4. Some that sell way more deer than they let on, if they even admit to it at all, and don't want people to be able to find out this.
5. Then of course the Illegal lads. It makes it that bit harder so they don't want anything (not that they'd have much of a say, officially, anyway)

I must, after Christmas, send out a few e-mails to the various organisations and ask them have they made such suggestions and if so what were the responses. It'll be a starting point and won't step on anyone's toes by sending out e-mails to the NPWS as i'm nowhere near qualified, nor the appropriate person, to represents hunters in such matters.

outdoors247

Good points no one wants to start paying for something they were getting for free just because a few fellas are not following the law at all

Grizzly 45

with respects to all, tagging would be a good idea if it wasnt Ireland that we are dealing with.Nothing ever stays at the base price line and quite frankly there is no way in Hell that we will get beuracrats and administrators to work for such small sums of money.I have had this experiance this year with the private security authorithy,as a private investigator I and my fellow investigators have been calling for decades for legislation to regulate the industry.We got it this year and its a cobbled together disaster from legislation of the private security acts of 2004 and is utterly irrevelant to the profession and more akin to" how to run a office for idiots."For this privilidge of liscensing I am paying 250 euros for a annual liscense and 1000 euros administration fees.Along with a compliance audit of 350 euros PA and insurance of 350 euros.IOW 2 grand per annum in an industry where most of us are in the Jack Taylor leauge of things and not the Miami Vice category.Also the PSA had over 13 years to consult with us in the industry and didntbother until two illegal data miners calling them selves PIs were caught swindling the dept of social welfare out of confidential info,and rushed thru panicked legislation because a scapegoat was needed and fast and questions were asked inb the Dail about the PSA...:rolleyes:Will it stop rouge PIs out there ???Does strict gun liscensing stop deer pochers?

In short the road to Hell is an ultra smooth black top highway of grade A1 good intentions in Ireland. Yeah we might start out small at a fiver per tag.But whats to say unless its locked in law it will be the same next year?Or the year after?Beuracrats are expensive people and if it costs 1000 euros to issue me with a bit of paper for literally ONE HOURS worth of typing and looking at files and certs.99.9% of which I supplied... I dont even get a govt issued ID card for this expenditure..

What will it cost us in the long run??So ,how will it be paid for???It always boils down to those two questions.Do we want to pay for this and quite frankly I think we wil seriously regret it within two seasons.We wont get fancy un forgeable tags,we will get the cheapest of the cheap,run em off on a colour printer by the ream tags.Like our gun liscenses when they wer e being reviewed it was going to be this ultra fancy plastic smart card type yoke.Remember that?Same like our dole cards.70% of the features dont work on the new cards.For how many millions of our tax money?

Or do we wnt to go a completely different way and actually enforce existing legislation and demand harsher penalties for both the supplier and buyer in or courts with jail time and loss of property?As well as removing the financial incentive to sell wild game? Make it a risky proposition to be selling or buying poached game and one or two under cover stings and convictions will soon get the message out that its a non deal.
We really need to think this one thru because as in my case and potentially this.We just might get what we didnt wish for but wanted anyway.

outdoors247

Mmm if only there was a pi willing to pose as a buyer from some poachers ha ah yes it could end up like over pricing of fishing licence in a matter of two years but if poaching is a big problem in deer hunting there must be some effort from game wardens or what ever their called to try stop it

outdoors247

Or why aren't they out patrolling the areas where most deer are shot wouldn't catch em all but when they find out that a few have been caught by on the spot checks it might stop some from chancing it

Cass

@ Grizzly45. You're right and i even said as much above. It will not have the ideal result and like all things we have it'll be fubar to some degree. Howver, and i cannot help but repest myself, we have to start someone.

What i've outlined above is something i've just thought up while typing. What could be done if the relevant associations, NPWS and Gov. Depts get involved? Anything is better than what we have, which i next to nothing.

It's why i don't subscribe to the "sure why bother" attitude.

Plus, and while it's a moot point i feel it needs clearing up, i did not suggest a fiver per tag. For personal tags it could be €5 per 10 tags, or stay free. For commercial tags set a fee or higher fee as it's known where these deer will end up.

outdoors247 wrote: »

.......... but if poaching is a big problem in deer hunting there must be some effort from game wardens or what ever their called to try stop it

There is and they have their successes. However they are grossly underfunded, and as a result are also lacking in numbers to adequately "police" the situation.

outdoors247

Same as every other criminal activity in the country then in fairness if they don't have the funding and legal shooters aren't willing to pay towards the problem maybe something like unpaid wardens say even a night a week to help patrol the areas like a neighbourhood watch type of thing I no it's the same as paying people wouldent want to pay with time either but just an idea

Cass

Some lads do something similar but it's completely unpaid, completely voluntary and completely UNOFFICIAL.

Basically they simply check their permissions/grounds a few times a week both during and between seasons. All they can do if they find something is to ring and report the incident, but by the time anyone in an official capacity can arrive the offenders are usually long gone.

Plus you really don't want any confrontations as the firearm owner, while acting to protect their interests, usually don't come out well.

outdoors247

I don't mean drive around with your gun like vigilantes .what I mean is let's say a warden has to patrol a 50sq mile area he brings say five volunteers with him to patrol the area when they see lamps or whatever they radio him to approach the people out lamping or whatever there upto to investigate that way the warden isn't trying to watch such a large patch alone and when ya do see something suspicious he's not gonna take all night to arive either

Grizzly 45

outdoors247 wrote: »

Mmm if only there was a pi willing to pose as a buyer from some poachers ha ah yes it could end up like over pricing of fishing licence in a matter of two years but if poaching is a big problem in deer hunting there must be some effort from game wardens or what ever their called to try stop it

I would be only too happy to do so along with one or two fellow PIs who are deer hunters,and we have kicked this idea about abit.However until we get a mandate from either an organisation and AGS/NPWS to attempt this it wont go anywhere..And thats one of the big problems here,there is no out of the box thinking on sorting out problems here in this country.Its either throw money at it,set up a comittee of "experts" to can kick it,or just use 2the system" to ignore it. In a way I dont blame NPWS in saying they dont want to do anything unless it is a sure thing.Unarmed,zero protection in law and poorly paid,with an attitude from on high that "the less deer about the better." Would you be arsed?

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

@ Grizzly45. You're right and i even said as much above. It will not have the ideal result and like all things we have it'll be fubar to some degree. Howver, and i cannot help but repest myself, we have to start someone.

What i've outlined above is something i've just thought up while typing. What could be done if the relevant associations, NPWS and Gov. Depts get involved? Anything is better than what we have, which i next to nothing.

It's why i don't subscribe to the "sure why bother" attitude.

Plus, and while it's a moot point i feel it needs clearing up, i did not suggest a fiver per tag. For personal tags it could be €5 per 10 tags, or stay free. For commercial tags set a fee or higher fee as it's known where these deer will end up.
There is and they have their successes. However they are grossly underfunded, and as a result are also lacking in numbers to adequately "police" the situation.

No quibbling that somthing needs to be done,and there is legislation there to deal with it too as well as bodies,but the trouble is willingness,statist outlooks and tacit unspoken encourgement from on high to get rid of as many deer as possible,[just dont break the 11th comandment] or a Band aid solution on an aterial cut.
just a very simple solution and asistance could be the use of the rural text alert having a sub category for suspected vechicle regs or wildlife crimes. If we can stick a whole slew of depts wanting to know our busisness at garda checkpoints whats the problem with taking a fewGarda vetted voluenteer local hunters along on a checkpoint who would know whether lads are out foxing or poaching by the equipment and rifle and demeanour.There are small things that make life difficult for these "poachers" We can suggest them,but its up to PTB to impliment them.

Cass

outdoors247 wrote: »

I don't mean drive around with your gun like vigilantes

Not suggesting that for a moment. If i do it it's usually without a gun and not for confrontational reasons. It's only to see if anything is going on and ring the appropriate authorities if i do see anything.

Vulture 1

Maybe this I a stupid suggestion but don't we have a group of people already trained at dealing with poaching and bringing cases to court and getting prosecutions.They have the equipment and experience to bring people to book. Not their usual operating environment but their skill sets would definitely work. And they have power of arrest.

The water bailiffs?

Grizzly 45

Good thread on what they can and cant do.
All boils back down to the old leveller ,money and staff.If they cant look after their own jobs,why would they take on ours as well? Y'know thinking about this..The only way to get things done in this state is to take on the problem ourselves.[Thinking back to the pirate radio stations in the 1980s..Every kid and his dog was setting up in the garden shed or attic ,until it got too much and the govt started looking at its broadcasting laws]That problem then gets undivided state attention and least the sheep get too uppitty and start thinking for themselves it is legislated for as a pirority.

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