I presume all Ryanair fleet have highest level of Landing Aid?

dohouch

Just thinking that even though they fly into many minor airports that presumably don't have a very high level of landing aids, the cost of having to divert from the ones that do would incline them to equip all planes with the full 9 yards of landing aids.

Also because of their adherence to a one type policy.

Don't know all the terms, but have heard talk of CAT 1, CAT 2, CAT 3.

tnx

Bussywussy

dohouch wrote: »

Just thinking that even though they fly into many minor airports that presumably don't have a very high level of landing aids, the cost of having to divert from the ones that do would incline them to equip all planes with the full 9 yards of landing aids.

Also because of their adherence to a one type policy.

Don't know all the terms, but have heard talk of CAT 1, CAT 2, CAT 3.

tnx

Yes the aircraft is manufactured with them as standard,as is probably every other commercial aircraft

highlydebased

Not all airports have up to Cat III capability due to not having the equipment, fire cover etc. Not all crews would be certified to fly a Cat III approach either.

While Ryanair are CatIII certified, some carriers are not, and can't fly these approaches

basill

To the OP....

You don't just go and shoot a low viz approach. Factors to consider:

- airfield is cat 2/3 capable and approved
- crew suitably trained and current
- aircraft cat 2/3 capable and approved

Then......Crews would consult at the planning stage and ensure that there are no notified outages of required equipment at the airfield in question (NOTAMS) which would render a cat 2/3 approach out of the question. In the air they would get the ATIS and also confirm with the approach controller that low viz procedures are in force.

Whilst the airline policy may be to train their crews to cat 2/3 standard (not all do due cost) sometimes things happen in the sim which mean that pilots can be out of currency until the next recurrent and therefore unable to shoot a cat 2/3 approach.

While the aircraft may come as standard from the manufacturer fitted with all of the necessary "bells and whistles" to enable a low viz approach to be flown, things break. On a given day an aircraft may be flying under the provisions of an MEL item which preclude it from conducting Cat 2/3 approaches.

There are also different levels of cat 3 approaches which can be flown to varying minima. Some operators may not be authorised to land in complete whiteout conditions with NO decision height (cat 3b NO DH). Other carriers may be able to get in whilst others are diverting for this reason.

Bussywussy

When carrying out training say on a practice cat3 to keep current etc do you have to get ATC to implement the proper signal protection regarding runway hold points etc???

eatmyshorts

Bussywussy wrote: »

When carrying out training say on a practice cat3 to keep current etc do you have to get ATC to implement the proper signal protection regarding runway hold points etc???

Technically yes. Practice cat II or III approaches have their risks if the airfield is not running full LVO Ops. See the Singapore 777 incident in Munich.

There really isn't a need to be doing practice approaches anyway. Recurrent LVO ops in the simulator is enough to keep regulatory currency.
I haven't flown a CAT II or III approach outside if the sim in about 4 years. But I'm still current and approved.

basill

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Technically yes. Practice cat II or III approaches have their risks if the airfield is not running full LVO Ops. See the Singapore 777 incident in Munich.

There really isn't a need to be doing practice approaches anyway. Recurrent LVO ops in the simulator is enough to keep regulatory currency.
I haven't flown a CAT II or III approach outside if the sim in about 4 years. But I'm still current and approved.

Practice approaches will usually either be for right seat to left seat conversion training or a regulatory requirement to validate the approach.

Bussywussy

basill wrote: »

Practice approaches will usually either be for right seat to left seat conversion training or a regulatory requirement to validate the approach.

Ah I see because I have heard pilots asking ATC.There was one carrier that used to come into the maintenance facility where I used to work and I think their requirement was to do an autoland before the check.

dohouch

Bussywussy wrote: »

Yes the aircraft is manufactured with them as standard,as is probably every other commercial aircraft

Interesting, thought these high grade landing aids were an optional extra, due to high cost.

bkehoe

Bussywussy wrote: »

Ah I see because I have heard pilots asking ATC.There was one carrier that used to come into the maintenance facility where I used to work and I think their requirement was to do an autoland before the check.

If the aircraft has been downgraded to CATI for some reason, repairs are carried out, then it'd often be a requirement for a practice autoland before the aircraft is once again certified for CATIII approaches.

As for the 737, CATIIIb is an optional extra....as far as I understand, not many airlines have the fail operational, 3 axis autopilot that enables this (i.e. that the autopilot can control yaw as well as pitch/roll), so most 737s are CATIIIa.

billie1b

If you listen back to LiveATC for Sunday night between 11pm and 11:30pm you'll hear a Ryanair aircraft requesting a catIII autoland for training purposes. Neither pilot was being line checked at the time

arubex

dohouch wrote: »

Interesting, thought these high grade landing aids were an optional extra, due to high cost.

You are correct; the 737NG only has Cat II by default. Cat IIIA is optional extra and IIIB is optional extra-extra-really-extra ( and only since 2005 ).

dohouch

arubex wrote: »

You are correct; the 737NG only has Cat II by default. Cat IIIA is optional extra and IIIB is optional extra-extra-really-extra ( and only since 2005 ).

So CAT IIIA and CAT IIIB can land in zero visibility and heavy cross-winds or meet some such extra demands.
thanks for every bit of info, that's fed to me in easily digestible morsels

Irish Steve

It's been a long time since I looked at the cross wind limits for CAT III, It used to be the case that the cross wind limit was 15 Kts, which is considerably less than the FCOM limit for most heavy jets, the reality is that most CAT III ops are being carried out into Fog, so not strong winds from any direction, though one or two places (Bristol Lulsgate springs to mind) are regular CAT III due to low cloud, which can happen with strong winds as well.

At Bristol, due to the lower ground to the North, which was visible from the old tower, the ATC report would state "be advised, there is cloud below the airfield level", though I'm not sure if they still report this when CAT III operations are taking place. It certainly was the case before the runway was upgraded and the new approach and tower was set up.

billy few mates

dohouch wrote: »

So CAT IIIA and CAT IIIB can land in zero visibility and heavy cross-winds or meet some such extra demands.
thanks for every bit of info, that's fed to me in easily digestible morsels

Not crosswinds, the limits for each aircraft type vary but in general auto lands are not used in crosswinds, they're more used in low viz not rough weather.
CAT 3A is the minimum spec for an A/C leaving the factory, CAT3B is standard on some types and an option on others. CAT 3B is roll out where the autopilot remains engaged and tracks the runway centreline (localiser) through the roll out phase so these A/C would have an input to the rudder channel. Most Airbus A/C have it even if they don't all use it, Tristars had it (with a PVD for guidance) some Boeings have/had it, B737 classics don't.....

eatmyshorts

billy few mates wrote: »

CAT 3A is the minimum spec for an A/C leaving the factory, CAT3B is standard on some types and an option on others. CAT 3B is roll out where the autopilot remains engaged and tracks the runway centreline (localiser) through the roll out phase ...

Not necessarily. I can autoload off a CAT 2 approach and still have roll out guidance down to taxi speed.

triggermortis

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Not necessarily. I can autoload off a CAT 2 approach and still have roll out guidance down to taxi speed.

cat II approach is just that - an approach (350m RVR 100' DH). It is not an autoland

Bussywussy

bkehoe wrote: »

If the aircraft has been downgraded to CATI for some reason, repairs are carried out, then it'd often be a requirement for a practice autoland before the aircraft is once again certified for CATIII approaches.

No these were serviceable aircryaft could of been just a procedure as it was going in for overhaul

now just a "Land Cat 3 capability test" is sufficient for upgrading.

billy few mates

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Not necessarily. I can autoload off a CAT 2 approach and still have roll out guidance down to taxi speed.

Does your autopilot remain engaged during the rollout....?
Not all autopilots have a rudder channel but you need one for CAT 3B.

Most CAT 3 landings are done in CAT 1 or better conditions mostly for training or maintenance upgrade and in these conditions the ILS will not be properly protected so there can be anomalies at times. In proper low viz conditions the ATC will protect the ILS by using the CAT 3 hold points, closing certain crossings even clearing tractors from the grassy areas to prevent interference (beam bending) of the ILS. Auto lands are a pretty straightforward procedure and very reliable, Tridents were doing it in the 60s and 70s....

eatmyshorts

billy few mates wrote: »

Does your autopilot remain engaged during the rollout....?
Not all autopilots have a rudder channel but you need one for CAT 3B.
..

It remains engaged. The aircraft doesn't know if you're doing a cat 1,2 or 3.
In fact, an autoland is compulsory from a CAT 2 approach for us.
If the autopilot is engaged at glideslope capture, it starts the setup for an autolond by reconfiguring and isolating the electrical busses and engaging all 3 AP channels.
At 1500 feet, it will self test all required systems and annunciate it's Approach Status by 1000 feet.

billy few mates

What type is it....?

Bussywussy

billy few mates wrote: »

What type is it....?

3 A/P channels,surely a Boeing heavy

eatmyshorts

billy few mates wrote: »

What type is it....?

777

Silverbling

I have a question that I have always been curious about

We regularly go to Funchal and know the landing can sometimes be bit of a belly lurcher but is quick

From the ground you can see the planes swaying with the cross winds but the majority land first time, sometimes they will go around again and every now and then a plane will attempt 3 landings and fly away

Now for my question that might sound a bit strange as wind is wind but do you have an idea of the cross wind speed when you are landing or can it gust up and take you by suprise?

eatmyshorts

Silverbling wrote: »

I have a question that I have always been curious about

We regularly go to Funchal and know the landing can sometimes be bit of a belly lurcher but is quick

From the ground you can see the planes swaying with the cross winds but the majority land first time, sometimes they will go around again and every now and then a plane will attempt 3 landings and fly away

Now for my question that might sound a bit strange as wind is wind but do you have an idea of the cross wind speed when you are landing or can it gust up and take you by suprise?

The ATIS weather info and tower will provide the latest wind velocity including gusts to the crew.

Silverbling

Thanks it is one of those randoms questions I have wondered about for years

billy few mates

eatmyshorts wrote: »

It remains engaged. The aircraft doesn't know if you're doing a cat 1,2 or 3.
In fact, an autoland is compulsory from a CAT 2 approach for us.
If the autopilot is engaged at glideslope capture, it starts the setup for an autolond by reconfiguring and isolating the electrical busses and engaging all 3 AP channels.
At 1500 feet, it will self test all required systems and annunciate it's Approach Status by 1000 feet.

I thought the B777 was certified for hand flown CAT 2, FD only, no A/P approaches, is this a company restriction....?

eatmyshorts

billy few mates wrote: »

I thought the B777 was certified for hand flown CAT 2, FD only, no A/P approaches, is this a company restriction....?

Company SOP.

billy few mates

One less procedure to train for....?