Fined in France

donalh087

Don't know which forum to post in but here goes.

Rented a car in the South of France on the family hol's last Sept. Rented from Europcar.

Today I got a letter from the court of the town we were staying in saying on the 16th of Sept I broke a red light (this is my translation). Anyway it is a traffic offence of sorts.

If I pay it by 12th of Nov (sic) the fine is €80 (well past)
If I pay within 76 days the fine is €135 (this is what I am now looking at)
After that the fine is €375

Clearly I have no idea what they are talking about. I hardly remember where I was last week - let alone three months ago.

It would be most unlike me to break a red light but of course in a foreign country it is quite possible I did something wrong. I simply have no idea.

Do the French authorities have any jurisdiction here? Next time I go through a French Airport will I get collared by Monsieur LePlod? €135 is a lot to pay out for something I have no knowledge of.

goz83

Maybe they fine the rental company who charge your card instead. You could get in touch with europcar and ask them about it, as they would have no doubt received the information first and is very likely why there was a delay in you receiving the already increased fine.

SmartinMartin

The french have no authority here, but if you ignore it and you are stopped in France ever again you will be arrested. By the way, the car hire company will charge you approx 40 euro for passing your info to the police.

Fred Swanson

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MarkAnthony

I got fined myself. The French have it bang on. It's small fines that escalate and they're easy to pay. IIRC mine was over by a few days and the website (which has an English option) allowed me to pay the lower amount.

The French actually enforce their traffic laws unlike the Irish! As long as you'll never be driving in France again you're safe not to pay it. Otherwise cough up they've cameras everywhere on the roads if can rest assured if you got a fine for it you did it.

CelticRambler

donalh087 wrote: »

Clearly I have no idea what they are talking about. I hardly remember where I was last week - let alone three months ago.

It would be most unlike me to break a red light but of course in a foreign country it is quite possible I did something wrong. I simply have no idea.

It will normally say on the notice where the "infraction" occurred (five-digit postcode followed by the name of the town/village). That at least would allow you to confirm that you were/weren't in the area.

Those "red light" cameras are very sensitive, mainly to remind the French that an amber light means "stop" not "speed up". :rolleyes: As for the enforceability, I can't help because if I don't pay a fine, they can come and get me. :pac:

marmurr1916

This might help:

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/driving-offences-abroad.html


Evidence that you didn't break a red light, would be about the only grounds of appeal or if the letter was sent later than the 12th November deadline for payment of the €80 fine.

You could appeal against the €135 fine on the basis that you didn't receive the letter before the 12th November deadline (I'm assuming you got it after 12th November), making it impossible for you to pay the lower fine of €80. This may constitute illegal discrimination within EU law on the basis of nationality, i.e. making it in practice impossible for citizens of EU states who are not resident in France to pay the lower fine within the deadline.

You could write to the French authorities, in French and English, pointing out that the late arrival of the letter (again assuming that it arrived after the 12th November deadline), means that it potentially breaches EU law and therefore the higher fines shouldn't be enforced on you in Ireland.

Send a copy of your response (and the French letter!) to the EU Commission (and tell the French authorities that you've sent copies of both to the EU Commission), asking the EU Commission for its reasoned opinion on the matter. You have a right to do this under EU law.

The phone number for the European Commission's offices in Dublin is 01 634 1111.

They have a Your Europe Advisor (an Irish solicitor, Siobhan Duffy) who can advise you of your legal rights under EU law:

- Providing a Your Europe Adviser (solicitor: Siobhan Duffy) who is available to give advice and information on citizens’ rights in the European Union. Ms. Duffy is available for consultation sessions for a half day each month. You can make an appointment (by email to eu-ie-info-request@ec.europa.eu) for the following dates.

Thursday 29 October (morning)
Monday 30 November (morning)
Thursday 17 December (morning)

You'd have to book a session with her by email (eu-ie-info-request@ec.europa.eu), next available date is Thursday 17th December in the morning. I'm not sure if she could give you advise by email or over the phone.

http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/about_us/index_en.htm

Of course, if you return to France you'll end up having to pay the fine, assuming you actually did break a red light. You might also want to ask the French authorities to provide photographic or video evidence of the alleged offence.

More practically, you could pay the €135 fine but request a partial refund to bring the fine down to €80 on the basis that you didn't get the letter until after the 12th November deadline. If they don't play ball, then you could investigate the possibility that the late arrival of the letter was discrimination under EU law.

donalh087

I checked the location on the notice and it was just a few KM from the hotel so I assume I must have done something wrong. I still can't remember but would accept that no one is making anything up here.

So WRT to paying €135, the letter is date stamped the 17th of Nov - 5 days after the latest date for paying the €90.
So clearly that opportunity wasn't open to me.

If I didn't pay it, how would they ever know if I was in France? Would they really go to the trouble of finding my passport number and putting me on some kind of a database?

shrapnel222

donalh087 wrote: »

I checked the location on the notice and it was just a few KM from the hotel so I assume I must have done something wrong. I still can't remember but would accept that no one is making anything up here.

So WRT to paying €135, the letter is date stamped the 17th of Nov - 5 days after the latest date for paying the €90.
So clearly that opportunity wasn't open to me.

If I didn't pay it, how would they ever know if I was in France? Would they really go to the trouble of finding my passport number and putting me on some kind of a database?

Of course they have your passport number, because the rental company passed it on to them. If you go to France and they happen to scan your passport, there will be a marker there.

pretty sure if you go on their website and explain, you will be able to pay the lower amount.

CelticRambler

Probably not.

I'd say what happened is they sent the first notice to the rental company who took their time checking it out, sent it back saying "not us, it was him" (i.e. you), then that reply took a while longer to get back to the top of the pile by which time the "discount" period was up, but computers don't care about that kind of thing.

Edit: ... and for the same reason, if you go on the website, you will not be able to pay the lower amount - it's all or nothing. (And if you want to contest it, you have to pay the full amount too to have your day in court ... )

Knowing the system here from the "inside", if 'twas me, I'd chance it and if ever challenged in the future, insist that they produce a receipt showing that the notice was sent Lettre recommandée avec accusé de réception. Just about every quasi-legal document here has to be sent in that manner - even cancelling your 'phone contract - to prove that you sent it when you sent it (the recommandée part) and that it was received (the accusé de réception) ... but fines are rarely sent that way.

Of course if you play it that way, you'd have to let on that you never ever received the "post-dated" fine.

Fred Swanson

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donalh087

How would I ever get caught then Fred?

Fred Swanson

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barman linen

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I think you will find it in the small print. I had a speeding offence in NL and was stopped while passing through Schipol a year later when they scanned my passport. I never received any letter about a fine initially.

I was taken to a side room and told the fine was up to 180 or something like that. I asked what could they do - they said nothing but that I should pay they fine. They let me travel on.

They gave me the number and when I rang it up it was only in Dutch so I couldn't pay it.

I haven't been back to NL since but am sure I will be stopped again....

You may be lucky if the passport officer only glances at the date rather than using his scanner....

SmartinMartin

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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And where did you come up with this gem of misinformation, Gendarme Swanson?

marmurr1916

donalh087 wrote: »

I checked the location on the notice and it was just a few KM from the hotel so I assume I must have done something wrong. I still can't remember but would accept that no one is making anything up here.

So WRT to paying €135, the letter is date stamped the 17th of Nov - 5 days after the latest date for paying the €90.
So clearly that opportunity wasn't open to me.

If I didn't pay it, how would they ever know if I was in France? Would they really go to the trouble of finding my passport number and putting me on some kind of a database?

In that case, I think you've got grounds for appealing against the higher fine of €135 on the basis that you weren't given the opportunity to pay the lower fine within the payment deadline, and that this may constitute discrimination under EU law.

Contact the EU Commission office in Dublin and give them all the facts, including copies of any letters you've received.

They can let you know if you've got an arguable case under EU law.

If you do, see if they'll help you write a letter to the French authorities demanding that they allow you to pay the lower fine.

Fred Swanson

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peckerhead

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I think you've got grounds for appealing against the higher fine of €135 on the basis that you weren't given the opportunity to pay the lower fine within the payment deadline, and [...] write a letter to the French authorities demanding that they allow you to pay the lower fine.

I did this once (OK, I have fluent French so it wasn't too hard) and I also asked for evidence — of which there was none attached to the original fine. I said I had no recollection of ever having been near the location I was charged with speeding through (which was the case) and that, with respect, I thought there must be some error.

About 6 months later I got a letter saying my case had been referred for examination, and another 6 months later, another letter saying the same thing. That was in 2013. French efficiency my àrse... :pac:

Fred Swanson

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Carawaystick

SmartinMartin wrote: »

And where did you come up with this gem of misinformation, Gendarme Swanson?

How would the rental company have your passport number to share Smartin?

SmartinMartin

Carawaystick wrote: »

How would the rental company have your passport number to share Smartin?

Cos they ask for it at the counter when picking up the car, maybe? Anytime I've rented a car abroad I've been asked to produce passport, credit card and driving licence.

newacc2015

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Says who? I know in Germany every hostel/hotel has to write down the ID/Passport number of all guests and keep them in storage. The police can walk in and demand to see them at any time.

Fred Swanson

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Pat Mustard

The way that things work in New Zealand is that if the driver of a rental car doesn't pay a speeding ticket, the rental company has to pay. The rental company has the driver's credit card details and the rental agreement is worded so as to allow the rental company the right to charge that cost to the driver's credit card.