Job Interview: Codility Practical

funkey_monkey

Hi,

I've got a job interview next week part of the interview will involve me taking a Codility test to check my programming skills.

Does anyone have any useful hints and tips for me as I've not done one of these before?

Thanks.

funkey_monkey

https://codility.com/programmers/task/perm_missing_elem/

I've been looking at the above link. my method for this (not done proper programming in years) would be to bubble sort the array initially. as the values are 1 .. n+1 then return 0 if the first element of the sorted array does not contain 0 otherwise return rhs value if comparison of each subsequent two elements (rhs-lhs = 1) is false (can be optimised but id need to see it to do so).

In terms of timing it is not very elegant as there are two big loop structures.

There use of the term element confuses me. I always considered the element to be the bit inside [] but they seem to be referring to the contents if I have read it correctly.

Talisman

Get thee to the Codility website.

Talisman

funkey_monkey wrote: »

https://codility.com/programmers/task/perm_missing_elem/

I've been looking at the above link. my method for this (not done proper programming in years) would be to bubble sort the array initially. as the values are 1 .. n+1 then return 0 if the first element of the sorted array does not contain 0 otherwise return rhs value if comparison of each subsequent two elements (rhs-lhs = 1) is false (can be optimised but id need to see it to do so).

In terms of timing it is not very elegant as there are two big loop structures.

There use of the term element confuses me. I always considered the element to be the bit inside [] but they seem to be referring to the contents if I have read it correctly.

You're not thinking about the problem and instead are brute forcing a solution.

There are three simple rules:
N is an integer within the range [0..100,000];
the elements of A are all distinct;
each element of array A is an integer within the range [1..(N + 1)].

The fastest it way to solve the problem is simple maths.

[1,2,3,5] -> 1 + 2 + 3 + 5 = 11

[1,2,3,4,5] -> 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 15

(5 * 6) / 2 = 15 (It's not a coincidence!)

=> (n * (n+1)) / 2 = 1 + .. + n

15 - 11 = 4

c_man

Do lots of practice. There's lots of example questions online (try stackoverflow and general google searches). I've found them quite... mathsy and not very clear tbh, so get used to the format.

Also when doing it make sure you have your IDE/dev environment of choice at hand! Not point wafing about with gcc and gdb if you're bread and butter is some VS. Good luck.

funkey_monkey

Bollox - I never noticed that. In fairness, the coding I´ve done has been pretty limited in terms of its maths.

Anyhow, I tried the demo:

A zero-indexed array A consisting of N integers is given. An equilibrium index of this array is any integer P such that 0 ≤ P < N and the sum of elements of lower indices is equal to the sum of elements of higher indices, i.e.
A[0] + A[1] + ... + A[P−1] = A[P+1] + ... + A[N−2] + A[N−1].
Sum of zero elements is assumed to be equal to 0. This can happen if P = 0 or if P = N−1.

For example, consider the following array A consisting of N = 8 elements:

A[0] = -1
A[1] = 3
A[2] = -4
A[3] = 5
A[4] = 1
A[5] = -6
A[6] = 2
A[7] = 1
P = 1 is an equilibrium index of this array, because:

A[0] = −1 = A[2] + A[3] + A[4] + A[5] + A[6] + A[7]
P = 3 is an equilibrium index of this array, because:

A[0] + A[1] + A[2] = −2 = A[4] + A[5] + A[6] + A[7]
P = 7 is also an equilibrium index, because:

A[0] + A[1] + A[2] + A[3] + A[4] + A[5] + A[6] = 0
and there are no elements with indices greater than 7.

P = 8 is not an equilibrium index, because it does not fulfill the condition 0 ≤ P < N.

Write a function:

int solution(int A[], int N);

that, given a zero-indexed array A consisting of N integers, returns any of its equilibrium indices. The function should return −1 if no equilibrium index exists.

For example, given array A shown above, the function may return 1, 3 or 7, as explained above.

Assume that:

N is an integer within the range [0..100,000];
each element of array A is an integer within the range [−2,147,483,648..2,147,483,647].
Complexity:

expected worst-case time complexity is O(N);
expected worst-case space complexity is O(N), beyond input storage (not counting the storage required for input arguments).
Elements of input arrays can be modified.

Here is my code. Is it a reasonable effort, or is it laughable?

// you can write to stdout for debugging purposes, e.g.
// printf("this is a debug message\n");

#include <stdio.h>
int solution(int A[], int N) {
    // write your code in C99
    
    // Walk through array    
    for(int p = 0; p < N; p = p + 1)
    {
       // Determine lower side of the equilibrium point        
       int left = 0;
       for(int i = 0; i < p; i = i + 1)
       {
          left = left + A[i];
       }
    
       // Determine upper side of the equilibrium point
       int right = 0;
       for(int i = p + 1; i < N; i = i + 1)
       {
          right = right + A[i];
       }
    
       // Return Statement
       if (left == right)
       {
          return p;  // Value found
       }   
  
    }
    return -1;  // All indexes assessed.  No value found
}

Results stated:

The following issues have been detected: wrong answers, timeout errors.

For example, for the input [0, -2147483648, -2147483648] the solution returned a wrong answer (got 0, but it is not equilibrium point, left sum (empty set)=0, sum[1..2]=-4294967296).

On the results, it passed everything other than extreme numbers and overflow and failed 3 of the performance tests.


How is this for my first C program? Not that it matters. Unfortunately, I have to take my test over the weekend, so this was basically it. Next time is for real.

Any advice as to where you can see I´ve gone fundamentally wrong?

I know that it doesn´t consider numerous equilibrium points, but I didn´t know how to return multiple values - I´ve only ever considered returning a single value in my previous work. I did consider an array, but didn´t know how to implement it.

funkey_monkey

Off to read through their solutions now...

Am I missing something, or will this solution only return the first equilibrium point it encounters? The example array contained 3 such points.

int equi(int arr[], int n) {
    if (n==0) return -1; 
    long long sum = 0;
    int i; 
    for(i=0;i<n;i++) sum+=(long long) arr[i]; 

    long long sum_left = 0;    
    for(i=0;i<n;i++) {
        long long sum_right = sum - sum_left - (long long) arr[i];
        if (sum_left == sum_right) return i;
        sum_left += (long long) arr[i];
    } 
    return -1; 
}

The language I´ve previously used would exit upon encountering a return statement. Is that not the case here too?

Talisman

given a zero-indexed array A consisting of N integers, returns any of its equilibrium indices. The function should return −1 if no equilibrium index exists.

Returns any means return the first solution you find.

If you can recognise the maths problem then it will be easier to provide a simple solution. Think the problem through before writing any code, work out a solution using pencil and paper if necessary.

Loops within loops should not be necessary to solve such problems.

In the second problem posted it's obvious you need to sum the elements of the array so do that.

sum = 0;
for (i=0; i < N; i++) { sum += A[i]; }

You now have the sum of all the elements. Because you have the final total you can work your way through the array again and work out the equilibrium points.

Addition is commutative:
A[1] + A[2] + A[3] = sum
=> A[1] = sum - (A[2] + A[3])
or
left + right = sum
=> left = sum - right

left = 0; right = sum;
for (i = 0; i < N; i++) {
  right = sum - left - A[i];
  if (right == left) {
    // equilibrium found
    return i;
  }
  left += A[i]; // move element to the left
}
// no equilibrium has been found
return -1;

N=0 is a special case which you have to allow for.

Talisman

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Bollox - I never noticed that. In fairness, the coding I´ve done has been pretty limited in terms of its maths.

Don't think in terms of code, try to visualise the problem for yourself and then solve it as simply as possible.

Consider my example array for your first problem: [1,2,3,4,5]

1 = #
2 = ##
3 = ###
4 = ####
5 = #####

That's almost a triangle. The formula for calculating the area of a triangle is : half the base by the perpendicular height.

In this case : (5 * 5) / 2 = 25 / 2 = 12.5

But there are 15 '#' characters. The answer is off by 0.5 times the number of rows. The reason for this is that the triangle does not have a jagged edge, it has smooth edges so the area calculation is chopping the right most '#' on each line in half and this needs to be accounted for in the calculation.

(base * height) / 2 becomes (base * height) / 2 + (base * 1) / 2

The base and height are equal so:

((n * n) + (n * 1)) / 2
=> ((n * n) + n) / 2
=> (n * (n + 1)) / 2

That simple calculation solves the problem quickly.

funkey_monkey

Exam Done.

Disappointed. Got stuck on comparison of two array elements, one was a pointer. I could see the value, but I couldn´t get the comparison to work.

funkey_monkey

Returns any means return the first solution you find.

To me, returns any does not equate to return the first encountered. The program is unable to return any subsequent indices - therefore, to me it is not capable of returning 'any' only the 'first'.

Talisman

funkey_monkey wrote: »

To me, returns any does not equate to return the first encountered. The program is unable to return any subsequent indices - therefore, to me it is not capable of returning 'any' only the 'first'.

You want your function to be fast (time efficient) so that is why you want to return the first result you find. The problem isn't asking you to identify subsequent solutions.

rock22

Talisman wrote: »

Don't think in terms of code, .....
The base and height are equal so:

((n * n) + (n * 1)) / 2
=> ((n * n) + n) / 2
=> (n * (n + 1)) /
That simple calculation solves the problem quickly.

Nice, elegant solution.
A general question though. are such questions really testing the candidates coding ability or their geometry and algebra.
My background is science and i only ever coded in a very amateur way - often there was no of the shelf software available. And basic maths was often useful.

Is such basic maths still important?

Idleater

rock22 wrote: »

A general question though. are such questions really testing the candidates coding ability or their geometry and algebra.

Yes and no. I think their primary objective is to determine the candidates' thought processes.

A maths brain might get to a calculation result quickly, an artistic brain might draw a nicer presented value. These are purely stereotypical examples, but the thought process in tackling the problem is of interest.

beauf

rock22 wrote: »

Nice, elegant solution.
A general question though. are such questions really testing the candidates coding ability or their geometry and algebra.
My background is science and i only ever coded in a very amateur way - often there was no of the shelf software available. And basic maths was often useful.

Is such basic maths still important?

I've used very little maths in any programming I've done. The only time I've used it was when I did some graphics processing and another time for some pharmaceutical work.Perhaps if you did work in specialized area it might be essential. I wouldn't consider myself a programmer though. I just dabble in it. Most of the time I would be trying to solve problems of logic and sequencing.

Talisman

rock22 wrote: »

Nice, elegant solution.
A general question though. are such questions really testing the candidates coding ability or their geometry and algebra.
My background is science and i only ever coded in a very amateur way - often there was no of the shelf software available. And basic maths was often useful.

Is such basic maths still important?

The purpose of the questions is to give an insight into the thinking process and problem solving approach of a candidate. Some candidates will dive straight into the coding process and if they find themselves in a rut will more than likely provide a brute force solution. A more experienced candidate will tease out a solution before writing the code. They might take a bit longer to provide a solution but it will be more efficient.

I wouldn't say knowledge of maths is a requirement but the thought process of programming and mathematics are very similar. In my experience spotting the connections between concepts has been of great assistance when tackling programming projects.

For example, writing SQL queries is like doing Set Theory maths, people struggle with SQL and JOIN queries in particular but would have little problem with visualising the problem if it was a Venn Diagram.

funkey_monkey

Good news - I've got a job working with Java.

My start date is a while away yet so I want to undertake some online training. Any recommendations? I don't mind if it has a fee as it can contribute to my professional development record.

Long term I would be considering SCJP - is this worthwhile? I'm not sure how much of the libraries I'd be using in this job but I'm just happy to get back into work.

Any recommendations would be gratefully appreciated.


Thanks!

funkey_monkey

Well, I'm about one month into my job now as the start date was delayed.
I am struggling massively with it. The java I can mostly understand. Their architecture, I cannot.

There is a lot of cutting and pasting of code involved, moreso than I expected and I'm making many mistakes. I'm probably the slowest of my intake group.

It is getting me very stressed out and going into work is torture. Unfortunately, I've got very few options at the minute, so u have to stick with it, unless I get sacked first.

How long does it usually take to be proficient in these environments. I'm honestly shocked at how badly in performing - simple mistakes.

I'm getting totally disheartened and losing interest in it already. But I need to get over this, as in reality the only other choice is to go abroad.

L.Jenkins

Before you begin to sink, speak to senior team members and management in order to see what training is available. Also, it would be advised to voice your concerns now and let them know you're struggling, as opposed to going under and getting the sack. Shows initiative and the desire to learn.

AlmightyCushion

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Well, I'm about one month into my job now as the start date was delayed.
I am struggling massively with it. The java I can mostly understand. Their architecture, I cannot.

There is a lot of cutting and pasting of code involved, moreso than I expected and I'm making many mistakes. I'm probably the slowest of my intake group.

It is getting me very stressed out and going into work is torture. Unfortunately, I've got very few options at the minute, so u have to stick with it, unless I get sacked first.

How long does it usually take to be proficient in these environments. I'm honestly shocked at how badly in performing - simple mistakes.

I'm getting totally disheartened and losing interest in it already. But I need to get over this, as in reality the only other choice is to go abroad.

What do you mean by simple mistakes? Can you give us a few examples? Also, I wouldn't copy and paste code. Even if you are going to copy it word for word, type it out. I find doing that really helps with learning the language, its syntax structure etc.

Senna

I definitely know what you mean by the architecture being the problem, Im not lucky enough to be working as a developer, I'm in a platform team for about a month now and the code is no problem, it's how it integrates to all the other systems that is hugely confusing.

As said above, voice this now, don't let it get on top of you. It takes a lot longer than a month for a new developer to get up to speed so mgt will expect you to need help, you just have to ask for it.

funkey_monkey

I'm training now. This is the training exercise in doing. We are being asked to copy, paste and modify code as that is how they work. There is also some new code to be written.

I'm making mistakes like bringing in the wrong chide to start with, missing steps in the process and last night I had to do something that I should have copied from one place that was marked and mine was different. I genuinely don't know where I got it from or how it ended up being wrong.

I'll be working remotely, so I'm fretting about what happens when this happens. Hence why I'm wide awake at 3am.

I'll speak with the guy tomorrow, but I am totally shocked at how bad I am, I was a leading member in my previous job, but I'm so far behind the others in my intake, many of whom have less experience than me of this type of software that it has rattled me, compounded by my simple mistakes that I am making, it feels like a losing battle.

Buford T Justice

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

What do you mean by simple mistakes? Can you give us a few examples? Also, I wouldn't copy and paste code. Even if you are going to copy it word for word, type it out. I find doing that really helps with learning the language, its syntax structure etc.

This. You'll learn nothing with copy and paste. I'm doing a course in android at the minute, and its architecture in itself can be tough to get my head around. Nevertheless I torture myself with typing out the code I'm given rather than copy paste. Its helping

What sort of things are you struggling with?

Buford T Justice

funkey_monkey wrote: »

... I'm so far behind the others in my intake, many of whom have less experience than me of this type of software that it has rattled me....

Don't necessarily be so sure about that

Talisman

funkey_monkey wrote: »

I'll be working remotely, so I'm fretting about what happens when this happens. Hence why I'm wide awake at 3am.

You're stressing yourself, if you don't get proper sleep you are going to be tired the following day. Tiredness will lead to little mistakes which will frustrate you further which will lead to more stress and less sleep. That's a cycle which will erode your confidence in yourself and your ability.

Get some proper sleep and begin to break the cycle.

funkey_monkey

Buford T Justice wrote: »

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

What do you mean by simple mistakes? Can you give us a few examples? Also, I wouldn't copy and paste code. Even if you are going to copy it word for word, type it out. I find doing that really helps with learning the language, its syntax structure etc.

This. You'll learn nothing with copy and paste.

What sort of things are you struggling with?

We are being told to copy and paste by the supervisor. As in use this code here and that code there.

I'm struggling as they seem to have no defined ways to do repetitive tasks. I thought part of the point of oo was to create interfaces for standard tasks and I just pass on my object and the interface or superclass would do the needful. Maybe these tasks are at a low level that they just do them themselves?
So getting a standard to replicate is a hassle too.

Buford T Justice

funkey_monkey wrote: »

So getting a standard to replicate is a hassle too.

It'll also lead to problems down the line when something changes.

Perhaps they don't know any better or they don't implement best practices?

14ned

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Well, I'm about one month into my job now as the start date was delayed.
I am struggling massively with it. The java I can mostly understand. Their architecture, I cannot.

There is a lot of cutting and pasting of code involved, moreso than I expected and I'm making many mistakes. I'm probably the slowest of my intake group.

It is getting me very stressed out and going into work is torture. Unfortunately, I've got very few options at the minute, so u have to stick with it, unless I get sacked first.

How long does it usually take to be proficient in these environments. I'm honestly shocked at how badly in performing - simple mistakes.

I'm getting totally disheartened and losing interest in it already. But I need to get over this, as in reality the only other choice is to go abroad.

As a professional remote working contractor, I always insist on examining a client's code (under NDA usually) before signing the dotted line.

If I see a lot of copy and paste with minor edits, I always walk away, even if it's a LOT of money on offer and even if it might damage my reputation for subsequent jobs. It's a superb sign that the gig isn't worth it for any money.

As you might be guessing, there are a lot of software shops which don't encourage making code reusable, and they encourage people who just copy and paste and tweak bits. This development pattern can deliver something which appears to work well enough for another round of funding quickly, and hence tends to be favoured by pseudo-startups, but the code created is a crock of s*** and should be thrown away as soon as is practically possible.

Now, of course there are always parts of a project which will be mostly copy and paste - unit tests are an excellent example of where that laziness isn't fatal. So concentrate on the quality in the main product, whatever it is they are shipping to customers or putting live on servers.

Anyway, I'd personally recommend you start looking for a new role as soon as possible if they've got a lot of copy and paste in their core product. They'll have gone bust in a few years anyway, so don't waste your time with them. And if so, I'm genuinely sorry this has happened to you, but it's luck of the draw unfortunately, it's almost impossible to tell from the outside before accepting a role.

Niall

funkey_monkey

Unfortunately I'm between a rock and a hard place.
This was the only place that offered me a job after I was made redundant in my last company - the company closed down.
If this fails I'm realistically looking at having to go abroad for work.
I'm in as a contractor so I've got a year to fulfil before doing anything else. I hope to see it out rather than quitting.

14ned

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Unfortunately I'm between a rock and a hard place.
This was the only place that offered me a job after I was made redundant in my last company - the company closed down.
If this fails I'm realistically looking at having to go abroad for work.
I'm in as a contractor so I've got a year to fulfil before doing anything else. I hope to see it out rather than quitting.

If you're a contractor, it's a bit different. Contractors are "temporary employees" and many places treat them as warm bodies filling a slot. You are there to follow orders and not think too hard. You are not there to be invested in or trained or to learn anything. You are there to do as you are told.

Which sucks, but at the low skilled end of contracting it is what it is. And even for high skilled contracting, the team lead which recruited you and highly valued you can change suddenly, and you get a new micromanaging team lead with very fixed and very ignorant opinions on how coding should be done. You've signed on for six months and sometimes a year and you're past the early out clause, so either you renege on your contract or you stick it out. Some colleagues of mine therefore refuse to ever sign any contract longer than six months, and prefer three months, but that's a lot of instability when you have kids.

Best for your career is to stick it out. It's only a year after all. I in the past have drawn up a Google Sheets with my incremental money count showing every time I hit F5. Every time you feel like quitting, go stare at that rising money count. Make it to the end of the contract, and get out.

Getting fired can be a blessing actually, far better for them to end the contract early than you. But I wouldn't try to hasten it by slow working or incompetent working. Just don't try too hard and go through the motions until your time is up. And keep punching that F5 on the spreadsheet!

Niall

funkey_monkey

Thanks for the replies. Now that I've had a chance to settle over the weekend, I've decided that I need/want to continue widening my skills base in order to make this process a lot easier in the future.

I'm looking to get some additional training in things like Git and also some more modern software problem solving techniques. I've prefer recognised courses as opposed to random pages on YouTube and Udemy.

So, any recommendations for courses which cover these bases?



Thanks.

BrokenArrows

I've done a few of the codility programs in my spare time and for the occasional interview and i generally find them hard to accomplish in the allotted time. Its not the sort of programminging that i do in any job.

Does anyone feel that they are not a good representation of someones programming ability but really a test of mathamatical understanding and algorithm design?

Like given the OP's original question, being given that for a interview for a job which requires database database, sql and c# server side knowledge doesnt really match up. (An interview which i did)

14ned

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. Now that I've had a chance to settle over the weekend, I've decided that I need/want to continue widening my skills base in order to make this process a lot easier in the future.

I'm looking to get some additional training in things like Git and also some more modern software problem solving techniques. I've prefer recognised courses as opposed to random pages on YouTube and Udemy.

So, any recommendations for courses which cover these bases?

Most contractors who intend to remain in work for another decade or more will allocate a few thousand a year for attending training conferences or taking qualifications. These are usually tax deductible in Ireland, and you as a contractor should certainly be investing two weeks a year in training.

Conferences can also be great for networking, and avoiding the race to the bottom that low skilled contracting can become. Just be prepared for a hefty bar bill and surviving off of four hours of sleep every night for a week and still remaining impressive.

If you end up remaining in contracting, you'll find networking is the key to the higher paying contracts, the ones not advertised. Every contract I've had since 2013 has come from people approaching me, I've not needed to apply for any roles.

Niall

Talisman

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. Now that I've had a chance to settle over the weekend, I've decided that I need/want to continue widening my skills base in order to make this process a lot easier in the future.

I'm looking to get some additional training in things like Git and also some more modern software problem solving techniques. I've prefer recognised courses as opposed to random pages on YouTube and Udemy.

So, any recommendations for courses which cover these bases?

Sign up for a free trial of Safari Books Online. O'Reilly and Pearson are two of the most reputable publishers of technical titles. The library includes access to all of their video and book titles, the Live Lessons titles can also be streamed and the Packt Publishing titles are added to the catalogue a few months after release. It's far more reputable than the roll your own course approach on Udemy/YouTube.

funkey_monkey

I'm going to stay the Oracle OCJP course. Might do some Git as well as I need it for my job.
Still not comfortable in position. Getting pretty down about it.
After getting layoff off, this was not what I needed.

funkey_monkey

Just thought I've give an update on things. Some of the other starters are very stressed out too and getting a lot of pressure from managers about completing work.

I have been doing design work up until now and start coding again soon - not looking forward to it. I think Git needs to be my first place of call in terms of training up. Not even sure where I'll find the time as most of us are already doing unbooked hours in order to meet the deadlines.

It is a new area of work for me and I'm not at ease in it. I knwo I'll have to give myself some time, but the expected turnaround times have very little wriggle room and certainly not enough for an inexperienced new start. However as a contractor, albeit a poorly paid one, I guess I must just deal with this sort of thing.

boreder

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Just thought I've give an update on things. Some of the other starters are very stressed out too and getting a lot of pressure from managers about completing work.

I have been doing design work up until now and start coding again soon - not looking forward to it. I think Git needs to be my first place of call in terms of training up. Not even sure where I'll find the time as most of us are already doing unbooked hours in order to meet the deadlines.

It is a new area of work for me and I'm not at ease in it. I knwo I'll have to give myself some time, but the expected turnaround times have very little wriggle room and certainly not enough for an inexperienced new start. However as a contractor, albeit a poorly paid one, I guess I must just deal with this sort of thing.

Git (or SC in general) is an industry standard thing. You'll use it wherever you go, so it's not going to be a waste of your time, and worth the investment over time.

It's really not that hard to get your head around. There's a ton of stuff online about how to work it into your workflow.

Print this and stick it on your cube wall - https://www.git-tower.com/blog/git-cheat-sheet/

14ned

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Not even sure where I'll find the time as most of us are already doing unbooked hours in order to meet the deadlines.

One of the very few areas where contractors have stronger rights than permies is in hours worked.

Check your contract, but it should be absolutely cast iron that you cannot work more than the contracted amount per day nor per week without being paid pro rata for it, just the same way as if you're sick you don't get paid. If they cause you to exceed your contracted hours through excessive workload, you need to be paid at the very minimum at pro rata. Most people during initial negotiation insist on time and a half for hours beyond the contracted amount, but that ship has probably sailed for you.

You should always keep an hour by hour log of all work you do and on what anyway as a contractor. For all hours above contract invoice them at pro rata. If they refuse to pay it, it's time to lawyer up.

One of the few areas where you're allowed to be nit picky as a contractor is on pay and getting paid according to contract. Everyone in the contracting industry has a very strong incentive to make sure that host companies pay properly for the hours of the contractor. Kicking up a fuss here is highly unlikely to get you a bad name in the industry, if anything it will cause severe reputational problems for your host company, they could get blacklisted by all Irish recruiters. Any manager who caused that would be fired in any employer I can think of, it's a serious no no, senior management take reputational damage in the recruitment market extremely seriously.

Niall

funkey_monkey

Hi, well the story on the unbooked hours is really due to me (and a few others) struggling with getting up to speed with their system and the programming languages.

I really feel that I'm struggling to get up to speed and am not comfortable booking for my full time as a lot of the time is being spent mucking about trying to find things, understand things and get code working.

It's slightly different to normal contracting as we were brought on with the acceptance that we had a steep learning curve. I guess this is reflected in our rate.

In terms of progress, I'm slowly getting there, but it is a struggle as everything is new to me from Git, OOP, the system, Java, etc. I hope it clicks with me soon, but I'l be seeing out the contract at the very least so hopefully I'll get some useful experience or get into a better position with the customer. They seem happy with my work and progress, but coming from a job where I was very adept and at ease with the work it has been a big shock to the system and I guess that is part of my stress/pressure.

Evil Phil

^^ Basically everything Niall said.

I contracted for 8 years, I quickly learning that overtime contracting hours were times and a half, Sunday's and bank holidays were double time, and on call hours (for me) were at a 30% rate moving to an overtime rate as soon as I picked up the phone. It wasn't a problem putting those constraints in, and if I was on overtime or on call it was because the company REALLY needed me there.

I gave up contracting 7 years ago so the market might have changed but I doubt it's changed that much.

moycullen14

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Hi, well the story on the unbooked hours is really due to me (and a few others) struggling with getting up to speed with their system and the programming languages.

I really feel that I'm struggling to get up to speed and am not comfortable booking for my full time as a lot of the time is being spent mucking about trying to find things, understand things and get code working.

It's slightly different to normal contracting as we were brought on with the acceptance that we had a steep learning curve. I guess this is reflected in our rate.

In terms of progress, I'm slowly getting there, but it is a struggle as everything is new to me from Git, OOP, the system, Java, etc. I hope it clicks with me soon, but I'l be seeing out the contract at the very least so hopefully I'll get some useful experience or get into a better position with the customer. They seem happy with my work and progress, but coming from a job where I was very adept and at ease with the work it has been a big shock to the system and I guess that is part of my stress/pressure.

Ah here, it's not your fault that it's taking a long time to get up to speed. Some (most?) places code base is a mess. The cost of 'onboarding' is something that the client has to bear. It's a form of technical debt. No way you should be paying for that

14ned

moycullen14 wrote: »

Ah here, it's not your fault that it's taking a long time to get up to speed. Some (most?) places code base is a mess. The cost of 'onboarding' is something that the client has to bear. It's a form of technical debt. No way you should be paying for that

Absolutely 110%, onboarding costs are always at the client's expense. Contractors are not permies, they do not work extra hours for free, not ever. Otherwise we'd all be permies given all the benefits they get and we don't.

One of the very big reasons contractors get a very significant rate bump for contract extensions is because onboarding costs are eliminated for the client if they rehire you. I generally ask for a 25% rate bump for a contract extension after a year at one place, and to date I've gotten close to it because onboarding someone new drags down the whole team's productivity for weeks to months, and also if there is a recruiter involved they'll usually drop their 15% margin a fair bit as they already recouped their costs in the first year.

Niall

moycullen14

14ned wrote: »

Absolutely 110%, onboarding costs are always at the client's expense. Contractors are not permies, they do not work extra hours for free, not ever. Otherwise we'd all be permies given all the benefits they get and we don't.

One of the very big reasons contractors get a very significant rate bump for contract extensions is because onboarding costs are eliminated for the client if they rehire you. I generally ask for a 25% rate bump for a contract extension after a year at one place, and to date I've gotten close to it because onboarding someone new drags down the whole team's productivity for weeks to months, and also if there is a recruiter involved they'll usually drop their 15% margin a fair bit as they already recouped their costs in the first year.

Niall

Also, you must remember what the relationship between contractor and client is: You give them your time & expertise, they give you money. That's it. Nothing more, ever.

Clients may play all sorts of games with you but nothing changes the fundamentals of the relationship.

For your own sake, you must consider yourself as at least an equal in the relationship. Never believe that the client is doing you a favour by offering you a contract. There is no loyalty - nor should there be. You will be dropped like a hot potato by clients of it suits them to do so.

That said, you must act professionally. Follow the terms of your contract to the letter - and make sure the client does too!

Remember idiot project managers the world over think that code can be developed in less time than it actually takes. That's why they're idiots and project managers (see dilbert principle). Chances are if you find yourself haggling with a PM about how long a piece of works takes, it won't end well.

You're a contractor because you want to be, not because it suits the client.

Labarbapostiza

14ned wrote: »

I generally ask for a 25% rate bump for a contract extension after a year at one place, and to date I've gotten close to it because onboarding someone new drags down the whole team's productivity for weeks to months

I'm not sure, this is always the case. At a very large company I worked for (I'm sure many people here have too), I developed a strong suspicion that finding the most inefficient ways to do things was a major part of their business model. In that it allowed them to bill the client more.

14ned

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

I'm not sure, this is always the case. At a very large company I worked for (I'm sure many people here have too), I developed a strong suspicion that finding the most inefficient ways to do things was a major part of their business model. In that it allowed them to bill the client more.

Oh sure, if you're doing work for someone else, especially if it's government procurement, there is a strong incentive to milk the pooch for as much as you can get. I was once the Chief Software Architect for a small but critical part of the support systems for the EuroFighter, and because everyone knew that project was a political and not an engineering one, everyone knew it could never be cancelled and additional funding would always eventually appear no matter how badly anyone screwed up. That led to craziness like appointing a fresh graduate straight out of uni as Chief Software Architect for that EuroFighter support system, and the chief manager of the software systems in EADS Deutschland was barely older than me (they thought the software systems small and unimportant and allocated resources appropriately, in fact the EuroFighter is 75% software but nobody apart from the software guys realised that at the time).

If you think you've seen inefficiency, whether deliberate or just incompetence, try working on a government procurement project where everybody knows nobody can ever get fired, contracts can never get cancelled, and you can always get more money guaranteed with no penalty. It was an eye opener.

Niall

funkey_monkey

I guess I'm in a different position than you guys. It sounds from reading between the lines that you've got relevant experience and that allows you to call certain shots.
I'm in the position that I worked in a niche area and when I got made redundant and tried to get back into mainstream software there were so many other candidates with the requested skillset and usually backed up with experience that there was no need for us to be even shortlisted. I got this contract as a pure fluke. The rate is not good, the work doesn't seem to be good either (lots of ctrl-c & ctrl-v where I would expect some type of library function or generic artefact). But it allows me to stay at home and they were the only ones willing to take a chance on me.
They gave me a chance where others would not. Grads are popping out of uni now in a better position than I was a few months ago. They would be cheaper and being honest, more than likely better coders than me.

14ned

funkey_monkey wrote: »

I guess I'm in a different position than you guys. It sounds from reading between the lines that you've got relevant experience and that allows you to call certain shots.

Hardly. If anything I worry about becoming too specialised to find new contracts easily. It's always a balance between specialising into a higher rate versus the increased stickiness at finding work. It's one of the big reasons I work remotely now, it increases the pool of available contracts immensely and it also means the US sets the day rate rather than Europe. I would like to hope I could still land a contract onsite in Dublin if push came to shove, but equally I can see that employers might worry whether I'd fit well with an onsite team (I personally think that worry overblown, but I can see the validity of their thinking). My point is that it's not like I call any shots, and the more experience and specialisation I gain the more in some ways it can count against me.

funkey_monkey wrote: »

I'm in the position that I worked in a niche area and when I got made redundant and tried to get back into mainstream software there were so many other candidates with the requested skillset and usually backed up with experience that there was no need for us to be even shortlisted. I got this contract as a pure fluke. The rate is not good, the work doesn't seem to be good either (lots of ctrl-c & ctrl-v where I would expect some type of library function or generic artefact). But it allows me to stay at home and they were the only ones willing to take a chance on me.
They gave me a chance where others would not. Grads are popping out of uni now in a better position than I was a few months ago. They would be cheaper and being honest, more than likely better coders than me.

The best of fresh grads will always be better coders the same way as the best of a new generation of snooker players always have amazing potting skills. Yet the old timers remain competitive by leveraging their experience advantage even if in raw coding terms they are no longer competitive.

What I think everyone here is saying to you is that we've all been out of work and facing a competitive market where those we are competing for work against have substantial advantages over us. There are remote workers in India just as good as me but with an enormously lower fixed cost base. But instead of racing to the bottom and taking whatever work the market can get away with foisting on us, you need to think and act more strategically for your long term interests.

There will always be s*** jobs with s*** employers available. The question you need to answer is what do you need to do now so you never again are compelled to take those sorts of job. That can, sometimes, mean doing a spell abroad so you can come back to Ireland with a much stronger resume in the future. It can, sometimes, mean moving back home in with your elderly parents so you can upskill. Me and the wife had to do that after the 2009 crash, not what we imagined for ourselves, but the rent saved funded a Masters degree for each of us. That marked our CVs as standing out from the rest, so we got preferentially chosen for employment over the others who didn't make that investment as the economy picked up.

That's what I mean by thinking and acting strategically in the longer term. Instead of "living to work" you need to "work to live" if that makes sense.

Niall

Labarbapostiza

14ned wrote: »

If you think you've seen inefficiency, whether deliberate or just incompetence, try working on a government procurement project where everybody knows nobody can ever get fired, contracts can never get cancelled, and you can always get more money guaranteed with no penalty. It was an eye opener.

Niall

Oh...I've seen inefficiency, and inefficiency like you wouldn't believe. It's not just something to do with government, you can find it in companies of all sizes, and they stay in business as long as they stay in business. Who gets fired and why they get fired, doesn't always have much to do with the success or failure of the project. This isn't just in IT, you find it in every industry. And the more aware you are of it, the crazier it can drive you.

beauf

Its certainly exists everywhere. Its just done by committee in the PS.

funkey_monkey

Hi,

Just thought I'd give an update on things. I'm progressing okay with the Java - I've not really been stumped yet with a code problem.

My main problems have been with knowledge of the system - which is really big and their VCS - which is Git.

I've been kindly provided with a learn Git in 30 days book by a member here and I'm slowly working my way through it. I'll get there, but it is difficult to pick up as I need to know things faster than I'm going through the book.
As for the system, well I'm slowly building up my knowledge base, although I'm working in only a few areas so far.

Git is my main problem though!

yes there

What exactly is your problem with Git? You dont need a book to learn it. If all your struggling with is Git then you have nothing to worry about.