Upgrade TT Bike or Invest in good Road Bike? How soon will aLL races go draft-legal!

lizanne83

I’m finding it very hard to decide on this debate & would appreciate the great advice from you knowledgeable boardsies

It’s time to sell on my TT bike and upgrade, ideally end this year…. But some would say that more and more AG races will become draft-legal and it would be more sensible investing in a very good road bike?

We know the Super Series is pretty much going to be all draft-legal next year…. But what about the rest.

If your focus is middle/long distance, yes a TT is almost necessary.

But if you still do a lot of sprint & Olympic, it’s a bigger debate as more and more AG races will become draft-legal from next year (?)

We know the Duathlon NC race (Mondello) this April is draft-legal for everyone. It could be a short matter of time before more races and AG triathlons become draft-legal too.

Does anyone have some insight on how much TI will bring in more draft-legal in the National Series in the next year or two?

I know there are various factors / limitations like race organizers trying to get closed roads, etc. But with the UK going down this route for AG races, it could be just a short matter of time. Maybe investing in a new TT now too could de-value quicker in a few years’ time. Can’t afford to upgrade TT bike AND a great road bike!

Any thoughts much appreciated

joey100

The World and European sprint age group championships were announced as going draft legal before the start of last season. So probably will only be a matter of time before the Olympic ones go that way too.

Last year there was only 2 super series that were draft legal as well as 2 Mondello duathlons (neither were that well attended really). This season it says all super series races will be draft legal but they said that last year too and TI wouldn't be known for sticking to timetables.

We could see more and more races (non super series) going draft legal but it won't be next season and might start being introduced the season after, no one really knows.

How close are you to super series I suppose? If your in it, a new road bike might be good, but depends how 'bad' your existing road bike is I suppose. If your intention is more middle and long distance I don't think there is any plans for these to go draft legal so a TT bike will get more use. How 'bad' is your TT bike and how much time could you save by upgrading?

tunney

TI: Lets do a draft legal triathlon, lets have it open to everyone

two weeks later

TI: I cannot believe the amount of people who got seriously injured in the race.

two weeks later

TI: I cannot believe the amount of cases being taken against us and the race organisers from all those crashes in the drafting races

two weeks later

TI: Lets just do non drafting races from here on.

Notwitch

lizanne83 wrote: »

We know the Duathlon NC race (Mondello) this April is draft-legal for everyone.

Is this confirmed? Also, is it confirmed as standard distance 10/40/5?

peter kern

google is your friend to see how it works in other countries.

tunney wrote: »

TI: Lets do a draft legal triathlon, lets have it open to everyone

two weeks later

TI: I cannot believe the amount of people who got seriously injured in the race.

two weeks later

TI: I cannot believe the amount of cases being taken against us and the race organisers from all those crashes in the drafting races

two weeks later

TI: Lets just do non drafting races from here on.

peter kern

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/S5_as_a_TT_bike_-_first_cut_P3761058

i think this is the future if you want to do both draft and no draft
can be tt bike or road bike dpending what you want
in your case and swim aboilty i would maybe go with tt bike.
many tt bike have been made into orad bikes before the aero frame time.

lizanne83 wrote: »

I’m finding it very hard to decide on this debate & would appreciate the great advice from you knowledgeable boardsies

It’s time to sell on my TT bike and upgrade, ideally end this year…. But some would say that more and more AG races will become draft-legal and it would be more sensible investing in a very good road bike?

We know the Super Series is pretty much going to be all draft-legal next year…. But what about the rest.

If your focus is middle/long distance, yes a TT is almost necessary.

But if you still do a lot of sprint & Olympic, it’s a bigger debate as more and more AG races will become draft-legal from next year (?)

We know the Duathlon NC race (Mondello) this April is draft-legal for everyone. It could be a short matter of time before more races and AG triathlons become draft-legal too.

Does anyone have some insight on how much TI will bring in more draft-legal in the National Series in the next year or two?

I know there are various factors / limitations like race organizers trying to get closed roads, etc. But with the UK going down this route for AG races, it could be just a short matter of time. Maybe investing in a new TT now too could de-value quicker in a few years’ time. Can’t afford to upgrade TT bike AND a great road bike!

Any thoughts much appreciated

lizanne83

Thanks for the advice guys.

@ Notwich - yes it appears Modello is draft-legal for all, see full details here - end of page.

@Joey, I've the Felt B2 with Di2 DuraAce - nice bike but 2011/2012 model, could be much lighter with new di2. Yes, I was in Super Series this year but not sure if I'll continue with it next year or thereafter so it's not as clear-cut as going road bike for that reason. Road bike is a standard Giant avail for training only.

@Peter, thanks for that advice. Nice job your man did on the Cervelo S5. Would be amazing to get a super aero-frame road bike that can be flipped into TT bike with bars fairly easily!! Where can I get one of those without building it? Working much harder on swim for nxt year

@ Tunney.... indeed you're right.... that's why I'm not asking TI as we just can't rely on it ;-)

A hybrid that was the best of both worlds would be great if it was easy to find....

viperlogic

lizanne83 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice guys.

@ Notwich - yes it appears Modello is draft-legal for all, see full details here - end of page.

That's for 2015. Nothing about 2016 or the NC

lizanne83

viperlogic wrote: »

That's for 2015. Nothing about 2016 or the NC

Ah yes that's 2015.... but defo read it somewhere that Mondello 2016 (NC) is fully draft-legal. Still not clarified on TI site though; serhaps it's not totally confirmed then :eek:
.....Think I just need to take all these possibilities into consideration & try get a bike that can be easily switched betwen TT and road as my training bike is too heavy for racing. Thanks for all your feedback

Oryx

I thought argon had a road/tt kinda hybrid this year but I didn't investigate in case I did something silly like n+1

viperlogic

I use a cube aerium pro. Basically a TT bike with drops

king size mars bar

If duathlon NC draft legal then I'm out

Notwitch

king size mars bar wrote: »

If duathlon NC draft legal then I'm out

It would be a bit nuts to have a Duathlon Series of non drafting races with the finale and key points race being draft legal.....let's wait and see.

tommy_tucker

your best bet would be a cube aerium pro with DI2, its geometry is half way between a road and tt bike and with the DI2 you'll have shifting on the tri bars when you attach them.

joey100

Just to add more to what peter said,

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4571890;search_string=;#4571890

With Di2 you could unplug the shifters from the junction box and plug in the road shifters if you had them. So if you had 2 different sets of handlebars it might work, Only thing would be the cabling the brakes. Lot of aero road bikes out there now, Giant propel, Felt AR, Cervelo S5, Canyon Aeroad, Argon 18 Nitrogen. Not sure about the others but the Nitrogen has a reversible seatpost so you can alter the angle to get a more tri style geometry.

I think aerodynamics are more important than weight on a TT bike so I wouldn't be changing just for the weight savings.

rooneyjm

[quote=

@Joey, I've the Felt B2 with Di2 DuraAce - nice bike but 2011/2012 model, could be much lighter with new di2. Yes, I was in Super Series this year but not sure if I'll continue with it next year or thereafter so it's not as clear-cut as going road bike for that reason. Road bike is a standard Giant avail for training[/quote]

Can you just op out of Super series if you want?

tunney

rooneyjm wrote: »

Can you just op out of Super series if you want?

Depends on the club you are in.

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

Depends on the club you are in.

???

do we sign a live contract with a club ?

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

???

do we sign a live contract with a club ?

See that? That there flying over your head?

splanagan22

I got the argon 18 nitrogen this year and got it set up with a 5 port Di2 so come tri season I'll be just changing bars to tt set up and pluging in shifters. I could however just add clip on bars to existing and stick the shifters in the end of them.

Also as mentioned before the 2 way post will bring me right into a tt position.

Moonfruit

Notwitch wrote: »

It would be a bit nuts to have a Duathlon Series of non drafting races with the finale and key points race being draft legal.....let's wait and see.

I have heard from the organisers that the intention is to have the Duathlon national champs in Mondello a draft legal race and in their words (to prepare our athletes for draft legal competition) But correspondence is still taking place with TI as to what the distances will be.
If the cycle is on the 3.3 km track mixed with the larger numbers than they've had in the past plus the possibility of a greater distance than its had in previous years then its going to be an interesting race to say the least.

TI need to thread carefully on this one as it could turn a lot of people off.

Just my opinion:(

rooneyjm

Moonfruit wrote: »

I have heard from the organisers that the intention is to have the Duathlon national champs in Mondello a draft legal race and in their words (to prepare our athletes for draft legal competition) But correspondence is still taking place with TI as to what the distances will be.
If the cycle is on the 3.3 km track mixed with the larger numbers than they've had in the past plus the possibility of a greater distance than its had in previous years then its going to be an interesting race to say the least.

TI need to thread carefully on this one as it could turn a lot of people off.

Just my opinion:(

If they do that then you would really have to question who is making decisions in there. To change the type of bike for a national champs on 4 months notice is a joke

rooneyjm

tunney wrote: »

See that? That there flying over your head?

How many do you think were named Cat1 but raced as an age grouper?

peter kern

rooneyjm wrote: »

If they do that then you would really have to question who is making decisions in there. To change the type of bike for a national champs on 4 months notice is a joke

i think the joke was the quality of the field and the bike choice of some coaches for their atheltes in 2015 it cant really get worse.

lizanne83

@rooneyjm - Can't see how opting out would be a problem. It's our decision what we want to race [surely] hopefully!

@splanagan and Joey, thanks for the hybrid suggestions. Have looked at Argon 18, could be a good option for quick change overs if needed.

@Moonfruit - to be honest I fully agree - I think it's madness & possible carniage that age-groupers are almost forced to go down draft-legal route. It should be kept for Super Series (e.g. those who choose to get such experience) and/or have that experience. Many people (Inc. Brian Keane) have said that they prefer the draft-iLLegal format; for many reasons. It's great that we now have the option to go draft legal (go into thesuper series if experienced enough) but it's not fair to force it into AG racing for everyone.

Can't see it happening for many races, too much risks and organisation, but if they're going to be throwing them in here and there, more & more (e.g. the national champs for duathlon series nxt year) to fall inline with other countries, then it's still a bit of a spanner in the works with regards to bike choices. It's not very fair really. But on flip side maybe some age-groupers would love the chance to try draft-legal if they can't do Super Series (both angles)

@ roonetjm, the answer to your last one is - A LOT of cat1's raced as AG this year :mad: Very few female raced Cat1, some stayed AG (but should have been Cat1 some would think)!!!

joey100

@splanagan22, how do you find changing the brakes from road handlebars to TT handlebars?

splanagan22

joey100 wrote: »

@splanagan22, how do you find changing the brakes from road handlebars to TT handlebars?

To be honest haven't done it yet cos got the bike at end of season. That was a question I had too but the shop have it sussed and I'll be bringing it back for the first change over. They set them up for a few lads coming into tri season

viperlogic

Just got word from TI re Duathlon NC..... """Duathlon NC will be a standard distance and will be draft legal. The event organiser will be publishing details on the event shortly"""

lizanne83

Thanks @viperlogic So it's confirmed - if ANYbody wants to compete in the regular Duathlon National Series nxt year, they'll need to race draft-legal on a road bike for national champs..... Despite *most* people's road bikes being used as their heavy work-horse for training purposes only (keeping the TT race bike for the good stuff). Should be intersting :pac:

viperlogic

Be interesting to see TI's interpretation of the daft legal rules, eg draft legal aero bars and aero helmets etc

rooneyjm

lizanne83 wrote: »

@rooneyjm - Can't see how opting out would be a problem. It's our decision what we want to race [surely] hopefully!

@ roonetjm, the answer to your last one is - A LOT of cat1's raced as AG this year :mad: Very few female raced Cat1, some stayed AG (but should have been Cat1 some would think)!!!

I will be opting out which is a pity because i wanted to give it a good lash this year. Its not a matter of throwing the dolly out of the pram but my road bike is for spins and commuting and I'm not buying a new jazzy bike.

I dont know where to start with the second one.

68 lost souls

I find it strange the people can opt out. In other sports for example soccer a team can't really opt out of the premiership to play in division 1? It would be unfair on those in division 1. Am I wrong?

This would apply to those who met the mandatory requirements rather those who applied.

rooneyjm

68 lost souls wrote: »

I find it strange the people can opt out. In other sports for example soccer a team can't really opt out of the premiership to play in division 1? It would be unfair on those in division 1. Am I wrong?

This would apply to those who met the mandatory requirements rather those who applied.

See there you are applying logic. The more experiences I'm having with TI the more I realise that logic doesn't seem to apply.

mloc123

Not quite sure what all the fuss is about. It will not be like an ITU race where there is a pack of 40ppl together in a group... it will be the same as when I last raced Tri/Duathlon 2-3 years ago.. small bunches of 6-7 people sucking each others wheel... only this time they don't have to pretend they are not drafting when passing a marshall

joey100

Going completely off the original topic here but the super series was a bit of a joke really. Was all meant to be draft legal, this changed without anyone really knowing to only the 2 National Championships being draft legal. People who should have been in category one choosing not to race in it and take age group prizes even though if you were on the original list you were not meant to have a choice. People also moved up to it during the season and had the results they got while in the super series count towards their age group series places. I let TI know about any of these I seen but they said there was nothing they could do, that it wouldn't be fair on the people to take away their age group points while in the same email saying that you weren't allowed opt out of super series to race in NS races. I have no problem with people opting out and winning prizes in non national series races but it looks like some clubs pulled their athletes who were on the original list to help boost them up the club championship table. Hopefully next year it will be a bit better organised.

To go back on topic, one bike that could do both sounds like an interesting option. Wonder how much of a compromise it would be though, probably not as fast as a regular TT bike but a good road bike. Also the cost of having 2 Di2 setups and a good quality aero road bike might make it not far off the cost of two specific bikes, especially if you already have one decent one. The swapping of the brakes would be one thing that I'd like to know a bit more about too, wouldn't fancy having to take it into the shop every time I needed this done, could be very simple for all I know, I wouldn't be the most mechanically minded.

peter kern

68 lost souls wrote: »

I find it strange the people can opt out. In other sports for example soccer a team can't really opt out of the premiership to play in division 1? It would be unfair on those in division 1. Am I wrong?

This would apply to those who met the mandatory requirements rather those who applied.

to be fair ti did say it was madatory
and why would you want yo force people to do something which is their hobby. ( i amextremly reluctand to invest into more tri gear to do draft legal races when my focus is long distance racing , some people cant swim and this format is really not suiting them that much.

tommy_tucker

joey100 wrote: »

To go back on topic, one bike that could do both sounds like an interesting option. Wonder how much of a compromise it would be though, probably not as fast as a regular TT bike but a good road bike. Also the cost of having 2 Di2 setups and a good quality aero road bike might make it not far off the cost of two specific bikes, especially if you already have one decent one. The swapping of the brakes would be one thing that I'd like to know a bit more about too, wouldn't fancy having to take it into the shop every time I needed this done, could be very simple for all I know, I wouldn't be the most mechanically minded.

it would be a bit fiddly (less so if its external cable routing) but all going well you should be able to do it in an hour. But you'd go through a few inner cables because you would have a tough time treading them through the outer cables if they were frayed or bent at all. you'd get fairly sick of doing it if you were doing it a couple of times in the season.

joey100

That's pretty much what I though Tommy, especially the way some of the newer aero bikes are it doesn't seem that simple to re-cable the brakes. External brake cables would be a lot more simple alright, you could nearly have separate brake calipers cabled up on each handlebar but again it's an extra cost and probably not as aero as an internally cabled bike. And on top of all that I don't really want a reason to get rid of one of my bikes, if anything I'd be looking for a reason to get another bike!

zico10

lizanne83 wrote: »

Can't see how opting out would be a problem. It's our decision what we want to race [surely] hopefully!


A LOT of cat1's raced as AG this year :mad:

How do you reconcile these two opinions?

mloc123

joey100 wrote: »

Going completely off the original topic here but the super series was a bit of a joke really. Was all meant to be draft legal, this changed without anyone really knowing to only the 2 National Championships being draft legal. People who should have been in category one choosing not to race in it and take age group prizes even though if you were on the original list you were not meant to have a choice. People also moved up to it during the season and had the results they got while in the super series count towards their age group series places. I let TI know about any of these I seen but they said there was nothing they could do, that it wouldn't be fair on the people to take away their age group points while in the same email saying that you weren't allowed opt out of super series to race in NS races. I have no problem with people opting out and winning prizes in non national series races but it looks like some clubs pulled their athletes who were on the original list to help boost them up the club championship table. Hopefully next year it will be a bit better organised.

To go back on topic, one bike that could do both sounds like an interesting option. Wonder how much of a compromise it would be though, probably not as fast as a regular TT bike but a good road bike. Also the cost of having 2 Di2 setups and a good quality aero road bike might make it not far off the cost of two specific bikes, especially if you already have one decent one. The swapping of the brakes would be one thing that I'd like to know a bit more about too, wouldn't fancy having to take it into the shop every time I needed this done, could be very simple for all I know, I wouldn't be the most mechanically minded.

Do people really bring a bike to a shop to have cables swapped out? This is probably one of the most basic jobs, along with swapping a chain etc.. that anyone can do. Takes about 10 mins to re-cable inner brake cables.

peter kern

To go back on topic, one bike that could do both sounds like an interesting option. Wonder how much of a compromise it would be though, probably not as fast as a regular TT bike but a good road bike. Also the cost of having 2 Di2 setups and a good quality aero road bike might make it not far off the cost of two specific bikes, especially if you already have one decent one. The swapping of the brakes would be one thing that I'd like to know a bit more about too, wouldn't fancy having to take it into the shop every time I needed this done, could be very simple for all I know, I wouldn't be the most mechanically minded.[/QUOTE]

this would depend on many things for insatnce cervelo would claim that the s5 is as aero as a p4 frame ( and the p4 frame is still top notch ) , to use that example of the ST thread i linked ( and in tests its comes out as the fastest aero frame) . so there would be no loss in speed therefore the guy in the thread , as he says he can fit both positions on it-and that guy in the thread knows his s.it ( some people will be able to do that some wont especially if you max out your tt bike with a long reach and a low stack like i do, an aerobike would not be an option maybe the bmc as it looks like low stack ) At the same time I would use an tt bike as my focus would be to have a good tt bike and an ok drafting bike as i need very long and fairly low bikes
the rear break of the p4 is useles so i would be very reluctant to make a road bike out of it ( like many bikes that have the breaks below the seatstay ) . .
I know of quite a few people that transformed old p2 s into road bikes and it seemed to work well .
you also have to be careful what bike you buy the Bmc apparantly has easy to work cabeling the quintana roo pr6 would be also easy to wrench on the new cervelo p2 due to brake placing looks like a good option defo no bike with integrated stem ;-)
ie most high end tt bikes will not work for that integrated stem gives less flexibility and it needs tohave a good rear break )
you will have to be a good more careful what you buy and frame sizing
also to point out you realy do not need di2 to make that work if you read the thread i posted. ( at the same time this is certainly an bonus of an di2 but having had a di2 i really would not want another one )
from an engineering point I would think its not that hard to make conections that you change very quickley if there is a market for it.

if you are not technically minded you would use what nicola spirig does she used her road bike for her ironman win with aded tri bars
and the road bike handle bars . the way chrissie wellington won hawaii a few times with a p2 that had road bike handle bars on .
this is also a good way for an ahtlete doing an ironman course that is techniqual.

yes you make compromises but triathetes always make compromises its the nature of the sport . if oyu work 80 hous a week have the big house you go for 2 bikes if you are not in that category and prefer to train rahter than making money , than i still think it s a viable option to make 1 bike use for both for many people.. if you are a bit handy.

peter kern

mloc123 wrote: »

Do people really bring a bike to a shop to have cables swapped out? This is probably one of the most basic jobs, along with swapping a chain etc.. that anyone can do. Takes about 10 mins to re-cable inner brake cables.

yes most people do

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

How do you reconcile these two opinions?

do you have to reconsile them ? some people like to be the big fish in a small pond , while others like to strech themselves , nothing wrong with either in my mind (unless you like to be the big fish in the small pond and are pissed off tha you got outsmarteted by a guy with a bigger big fish syndrom ;-)

new2triathlon

Triathlon Ireland said it was mandatory to be Cat 1 if you reached certain standards in 2013, 2014 seasons (ie podium in NS race, top 10 in NC) and sent out an email to this effect to Cat 1 athletes.

Obviously Cat 1 athletes may have chosen not to race Superseries - this was particularly the case in female races, where though there were 50+ qualified cat 1's, races had max of 20 or so. Some Cat 1's may have decided to only race NS and they would have been entitled to win prizes at individual races ( my personal opinion is that they should have only been entitled to overall podium prize, but TI did clarify during the year with me that they could win ag prize at individual races.)

However Cat 1 athletes were not eligible for NS points. They could not win AG NS overall and they could not contribute to a club's NS overall score. 'Opting out' of Cat 1 so you could win/score highly in overall NS was not an option that I was aware of.

joey100

Wasn't meant to be an option alright, but in the end it was.

new2triathlon

Posted a reply - but decided to bite my tongue instead.

peter kern

so what do you suggest would be the right way to do it then?

have cat 1 ellgbilble for clubs to score ( i mean how could you be the best club if the best people dodnt count ?)
the club league is anyway a fun competiton and dosnt matter ?
or fnd a beter way than the current way which would be what ?

joey100

Peter, I think the problem is that one set of rules were announced at the start of the season and they seemed to change mid season without telling anyone. I don't think anyone would have a problem with super series athletes being allowed score points, like you say it is only a bit of fun, the problem is when at the start of the season TI say they will not be allowed and then this seems to change when you look at the results at the end of the season. A bit of consistency is all people are looking for. If a rule is a rule then it should be the same for everyone. If the rule states that super series can elect not to be in it and can race national series instead that's fair enough, but TI said at the start of the year that they couldn't (if part of the original list) but seemed to turn a blind eye when some did. That's the problem here.

new2triathlon

NS Club Champs for developing/newer athletes in Club- fun competition, nice for winners to get a bit of silverware at end but not the be all/end alll. Mandatory Cat 1 athletes ineligible to score in NS.

Club Relay Champs - the premier club competition. All clubs who want to win get their best athletes out to race. Its head to head, winner takes all on day, cant be undermined by a 'big points'/poor standard of competitors unbalancing scores etc.

By the way - that was my understanding of the way things were supposed to be in 2015!!!

Agree with Joey 100% above also

peter kern

could you expalin what actually happend then ? ( base form many discussions most boardies dont follow Ns series and club champs ) who did actually win ?
which mandatory atheltes were counted for Ns series ?
what does ti say to the fact that goal poasts apparantly were moved ?

new2triathlon wrote: »

NS Club Champs for developing/newer athletes in Club- fun competition, nice for winners to get a bit of silverware at end but not the be all/end alll. Mandatory Cat 1 athletes ineligible to score in NS.

Club Relay Champs - the premier club competition. All clubs who want to win get their best athletes out to race. Its head to head, winner takes all on day, cant be undermined by a 'big points'/poor standard of competitors unbalancing scores etc.

By the way - that was my understanding of the way things were supposed to be in 2015!!!

Agree with Joey 100% above also

joey100

I'm not going to name people or clubs but it doesn't take much effort to figure out what clubs and who. TI website has all the info on it.

I contacted TI about it and was told that there was nothing they could do about it and wouldn't be making any changes to the points, even though they acknowledged that it shouldn't have been allowed to happen and the athletes should have been in super series. It didn't affect me directly save for a few places, was never the difference between me winning or losing. But there is athletes out there who I don't know if they know about this that I would feel sorry for and if I was in their position I would be very unhappy with TI.