Christianity and Doubt discussion

La Fenetre

Post removed from Support for Justin Webley ad discussion

[ This post, despite being on topic, was removed from the Thread discussing Justin Webley and the Church of England advert. ]

It seems Justin Webley, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the worldwide head of the Anglican Communion (who's appointment is chosen by the Queen of England)

Is asking us to pray to someone he doubts exists :

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/18/archbishop-canterbury-doubt-god-existence-welby

Welby says he's certain about the existence of Jesus, but doubts the existence of God, yet brings out an advert asking us to pray to him

katydid

La Fenetre wrote: »

It seems Justin Webley, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the worldwide head of the Anglican Communion (who's appointment is chosen by the Queen of England)

Is asking us to pray to someone he doubts exists :

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/18/archbishop-canterbury-doubt-god-existence-welby

Welby says he's was certain about the existence of Jesus, but apparently doubts the existence of God.

There you have it folks.

He said in the article ": "There are moments, sure, where you think 'Is there a God? Where is God?". He didn't say he doubts the existence of God, he says he has moments of doubt.

The human being who claims they have never had doubts is lying.

La Fenetre

katydid wrote: »

He said in the article ": "There are moments, sure, where you think 'Is there a God? Where is God?". He didn't say he doubts the existence of God, he says he has moments of doubt.

The human being who claims they have never had doubts is lying.

He's certain Jesus exists, so is he lying about that ?

katydid

La Fenetre wrote: »

He's certain Jesus exists, so is he lying about that ?

Why would he? What has that got to do with my point? Did you actually understand the point?

katydid

La Fenetre wrote: »

Webley's pretty clear, he doubts God exists, but is certain Jesus does.

You seem to be saying that a Christian who says they've never doubted God's existence is a liar. Is that correct ?

Also, why would he ask us to pray to someone he doubts exists ?

When did he say he doubts God exists? He said "There are moments when you think...".

Everyone has such moments, and anyone who says otherwise is lying or fooling themselves.

La Fenetre

katydid wrote: »

When did he say he doubts God exists? He said "There are moments when you think...".

Everyone has such moments, and anyone who says otherwise is lying or fooling themselves.

So now you're accusing any Christian that does not doubt God's existence is a liar.

Now we have the worldwide head of the Anglican church admitting that he doubts God exists, but is certain Jesus does exist. Seems he can be certain about Jesus, but not God.

Why is he not lying about that certainty, according to your claim ?

And why is he exhorting people to pray to someone he isn't certain exists ?

La Fenetre

katydid wrote: »

Why would he? What has that got to do with my point? Did you actually understand the point?

Yes, only too well, you claimed any Christian that is certain instead of having doubts is a liar.

katydid

La Fenetre wrote: »

Yes, only too well, you claimed any Christian that is certain instead of having doubts is a liar.

I stand over that. Someone who claims NEVER to have had a second of doubt is not being true to themselves.

lazygal

La Fenetre wrote: »

So now you're accusing any Christian that does not doubt God's existence is a liar.

Now we have the worldwide head of the Anglican church admitting that he doubts God exists, but is certain Jesus does exist. Seems he can be certain about Jesus, but not God.

Why is he not lying about that certainty, according to your claim ?

And why is he exhorting people to pray to someone he isn't certain exists ?

Wow, defensive much?

La Fenetre

lazygal wrote: »

Wow, defensive much?

I'm asking a question, and I'm trying to understand how someone can accuse other Christians, who don't doubt the existence of God, of being liars. Do you know ? Or is no one here allowed to question Katie's claims ?

Delirium

La Fenetre wrote: »

So now you're accusing any Christian that does not doubt God's existence is a liar.

Now we have the worldwide head of the Anglican church admitting that he doubts God exists, but is certain Jesus does exist. Seems he can be certain about Jesus, but not God.

Why is he not lying about that certainty, according to your claim ?

And why is he exhorting people to pray to someone he isn't certain exists ?

MOD NOTE

Please drop this off-topic tangent.

And try to keep the antagonism out of your posts.

Thanks for your attention.

La Fenetre

I asked questions about another posters claims.
In reality Justin Webley is on topic and his request for us to pray to someone he doubts exists is on topic, another poster (in reality the most antagonistic poster and one who's never moderated, and is now not even to be questioned) then decided it's ok to call Christians who don't doubt the existence of God liars on the Christianity forum, and the person who questions this slur, and is involved in standing up to your pro abortion claims gets the warning. I see.

katydid

La Fenetre wrote: »

I asked questions about another posters claims.
In reality Justin Webley is on topic and his request for us to pray to someone he doubts exists is on topic, another poster (in reality the most antagonistic poster and one who's never moderated, and is now not even to be questioned) then decided it's ok to call Christians who don't doubt the existence of God liars on the Christianity forum, and the person who questions this slur, and is involved in standing up to your pro abortion claims gets the warning. I see.

Please provide a citation to back up your claim about Justin Welby. I have provided a direct quote from the article to prove the exact opposite.

Why are you bringing abortion into this? You really need to get yourself together, you've lost the plot completely

lazybones32

Justin Welby said: "There are moments, sure, where you think 'Is there a God? Where is God?'"Welby quickly added that, as the leader of the world's 80 million-strong Anglican community, this was "probably not what the archbishop of Canterbury should say".

'Look, this is all very well but isn't it about time you did something – if you're there' – which is probably not what the archbishop of Canterbury should say." Gotta love a man of faith! Peter doubted when he felt himself sinking into the water; Justin questions God's existence when he doesn't get the answer when he wants it.

I've never doubted God's existence since He revealed Himself to me. I've doubted whether He was ever going to do something regarding certain longstanding issues but I've never had to ask Him if He's there. He is; He hears.
Mr. Welby's level of faith and trust would be more understandable if he weren't the leader and visible head of the Anglican church. Maybe these standards are acceptable to some Anglicans but I'd prefer Church leaders not to have their 'faith' shaken just because they don't receive a reply/answer when they want it. But maybe I'm being too harsh and demanding of him- who am I to judge, right?

The abortion topic (along with the whole of the post) was directed to a user who isn't you. But I'm addressing this to you. When you reply to the previous post, you don't have to quote it.

katydid

lazybones32 wrote: »

Justin Welby said: "There are moments, sure, where you think 'Is there a God? Where is God?'"Welby quickly added that, as the leader of the world's 80 million-strong Anglican community, this was "probably not what the archbishop of Canterbury should say".

'Look, this is all very well but isn't it about time you did something – if you're there' – which is probably not what the archbishop of Canterbury should say." Gotta love a man of faith! Peter doubted when he felt himself sinking into the water; Justin questions God's existence when he doesn't get the answer when he wants it.

I've never doubted God's existence since He revealed Himself to me. I've doubted whether He was ever going to do something regarding certain longstanding issues but I've never had to ask Him if He's there. He is; He hears.
Mr. Welby's level of faith and trust would be more understandable if he weren't the leader and visible head of the Anglican church. Maybe these standards are acceptable to some Anglicans but I'd prefer Church leaders not to have their 'faith' shaken just because they don't receive a reply/answer when they want it. But maybe I'm being too harsh and demanding of him- who am I to judge, right?

The abortion topic (along with the whole of the post) was directed to a user who isn't you. But I'm addressing this to you. When you reply to the previous post, you don't have to quote it.

I read the article. Why are you citing it back to me?

Assuming that this is addressed to me: if you want spiritual leaders who never display human weaknesses or doubts, off you go. But if they were my leaders, I'd be seriously questioning their bona fides.

If the abortion topic was addressed to a poster that's not me, why are you referencing it to me?

lazybones32

You're a teacher?! How can young minds look to your for direction if you can't follow my childish attempts.
You asked to be shown where the man showed doubt in the existence of God - "Please provide a citation to back up your claim about Justin Welby" - and I've provided the citation which you claim you cannot see, despite 'reading' it.

Yes, this is addressed to you. A post immediately after the previous post doesn't require the quotation (twice now you've been told that). I've no problem with people having doubts: when supposed Leaders of a church doubt the existence of God because a prayer doesn't get answered in the way they want, when they want, I question their maturity, 'faith' and suitability for the position (twice now you've been told that).

I answered your question about why the abortion topic was introduced...surely you're not so slow-witted?! (twice now you've...)

katydid

lazybones32 wrote: »

You're a teacher?! How can young minds look to your for direction if you can't follow my childish attempts.
You asked to be shown where the man showed doubt in the existence of God - "Please provide a citation to back up your claim about Justin Welby" - and I've provided the citation which you claim you cannot see, despite 'reading' it.

Yes, this is addressed to you. A post immediately after the previous post doesn't require the quotation (twice now you've been told that). I've no problem with people having doubts: when supposed Leaders of a church doubt the existence of God because a prayer doesn't get answered in the way they want, when they want, I question their maturity, 'faith' and suitability for the position (twice now you've been told that).

I answered your question about why the abortion topic was introduced...surely you're not so slow-witted?! (twice now you've...)

Nope, you provided a citation that proved the opposite to what you claim. That very occasionally an individual has moments of doubt. The kind of doubt all fallible humans experience when confronted with something that seems to defy all sense or justice. Not permanent doubt.

Is that too complicated for you?

lazybones32

I didn't realise we were using your personal and definitive interpretations of permanent, occasional and momentary doubt. There was me thinking that doubt is simply doubt. So we've established that he's not a full-time agnostic but an occasional agnostic...which is okay too...it shows he's human. <--- sarcasm

This 'God doesn't give me what I want, when I want it - Does He even exist?' doubt is okay for you and those given the responsibility of leading the Anglican church. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so damn serious. Were the man enduring a crisis or a 'dark night of the soul', the doubt would be understandable, but going for a jog with the dog and wondering if God exists. Yeah, that's leadership material right there! We live by faith, not feelings. Well, some of us do.

katydid

lazybones32 wrote: »

I didn't realise we were using your personal and definitive interpretations of permanent, occasional and momentary doubt. There was me thinking that doubt is simply doubt. So we've established that he's not a full-time agnostic but an occasional agnostic...which is okay too...it shows he's human. <--- sarcasm

This 'God doesn't give me what I want, when I want it - Does He even exist?' doubt is okay for you and those given the responsibility of leading the Anglican church. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so damn serious. Were the man enduring a crisis or a 'dark night of the soul', the doubt would be understandable, but going for a jog with the dog and wondering if God exists. Yeah, that's leadership material right there! We live by faith, not feelings. Well, some of us do.

Ah well, I did say it was too complicated for you. Your simplistic understanding of these things explains a lot.

tommy2bad

Am I reading this right? Some posters are arguing for unwavering blind faith?
"The opposite of faith is not doubt: It is certainty. It is madness. You can tell you have created God in your own image when it turns out that he or she hates all the same people you do."
Anne Lamott

La Fenetre

tommy2bad wrote: »

Am I reading this right? Some posters are arguing for unwavering blind faith?
"The opposite of faith is not doubt: It is certainty. It is madness. You can tell you have created God in your own image when it turns out that he or she hates all the same people you do."
Anne Lamott

No you're not. Is Anne Lamott whoever she is someone similar to Webley ?
(and yet, ironically, she has created God in her own image, one who hates all the same things and people she does, including anyone who doesn't doubt God's existence)

Regardless of who she is, or her motives, let's take a closer look at her twisted word claim, that the antonym to Faith is not doubt, but certainty, according to her.

From the Merriam Webster Thesaurus :

Faith : strong belief or trust in someone or something
: belief in the existence of God

Synonyms : devotion, piety, religion
Related Words : devoutness, piousness, religiousness; adoration, reverence, veneration, worship; profession, protestation
Near Antonyms : disbelief, doubt, unbelief, unfaith; agnosticism, know-nothingism; apostasy, lapse, tergiversation
Antonyms : atheism, godlessness

Certainty:

Near Antonyms hesitancy, hesitation, indecisiveness, irresolution; disbelief, incredulity, unbelief; anxiety, concern, misgiving; distrust, mistrust, suspicion
Antonyms: doubt, incertitude, nonconfidence, uncertainty


Webly, appointed by the Queen of England to be the head of the world's Anglican communion, claims he is certain about Jesus (the opposite to faith, and madness according to Anne somebody), but doubts God's existence, and brings out a cinema advert asking people to pray to someone he doubts exists.

Some Christians have doubts. Some Christians don't have doubts.
If you read my posts, what I've been objecting to is a poster's assertion on the "Christianity" forum, that any Christian who doesn't doubt God's existence is a liar. (Incidentally, the very same poster that asserts on the same "Christianity" forum, that Christ is guilty of sin.)

Delirium

MOD NOTE

Christianity & doubt tangent moved to its own thread.

brian_t

What does the '&amp' in the thread title mean ?

Delirium

brian_t wrote: »

What does the '&amp' in the thread title mean ?

'and'

Title modified

Datallus

The main problem here seems to be the level of education of the general population who misunderstand what the Archbishop is saying.

The lack of Theological training for our youth is a stain on our culture.

lazybones32

tommy2bad wrote: »

Am I reading this right? Some posters are arguing for unwavering blind faith?
"The opposite of faith is not doubt: It is certainty. It is madness. You can tell you have created God in your own image when it turns out that he or she hates all the same people you do."
Anne Lamott

I don't think you are reading it right. No-one mentioned blind faith but having faith in the existence of God is essential, for a Christian - which this man doesn't seem to have.
Trials show us how genuine and deep our faith really is: Jesus felt abandoned and forsaken by His Father on the cross (but never doubted His Father's existence) while Justin questions God's existence because he doesn't receive an answer to prayer when he wants it. That doesn't sound like a mature, deep, refined faith to me but hey, he's only the head of the Anglican church...no responsibility there. Maybe his comments were taken out of context but judging by the reaction of the interviewer, I don't think they were. Was it a Freudian slip?

"the opposite of faith...is certainty" Rubbish! I'd say faith matures into certainty. Are you certain in your belief that the Lord will return or that you will find yourself before Him at some point? Is that madness?
We're told to build our house on rock, so that when the ground shakes, the house will still stand.

antiskeptic

katydid wrote: »

The human being who claims they have never had doubts is lying.

Since I came to know he exists I've never doubted he existed. Anymore than I've doubted the existence of my wife once I came to know she existed.

Honest.

katydid

antiskeptic wrote: »

Since I came to know he exists I've never doubted he existed. Anymore than I've doubted the existence of my wife once I came to know she existed.

Honest.

You've met God?

antiskeptic

katydid wrote: »

You've met God?

Indeed I have.

katydid

antiskeptic wrote: »

Indeed I have.

Right...

Datallus

katydid wrote: »

Right...

So have I.

katydid

Datallus wrote: »

So have I.

What does he look like? Long beard? Or is he a she?

Datallus

katydid wrote: »

What does he look like? Long beard? Or is he a she?

I'm glad you asked.

You see, all of this is in the scripture: Matthew 5:8 - Happy the clean in heart -- because they shall see God.

Cleansing oneself of past sin facilitates the knowing of God.

If you have a dirty heart, then you can't see god.

catbear

antiskeptic wrote: »

Indeed I have.

I don't remember meeting you.

Isn't it funny how doubting my existence is acceptable yet no one dares question Santa's credentials?

katydid

Datallus wrote: »

I'm glad you asked.

You see, all of this is in the scripture: Matthew 5:8 - Happy the clean in heart -- because they shall see God.

Cleansing oneself of past sin facilitates the knowing of God.

If you have a dirty heart, then you can't see god.

So, getting back to my questions...

La Fenetre

katydid wrote: »

What does he look like? Long beard? Or is he a she?

You don't know God is a spirit do you.

Datallus

katydid wrote: »

So, getting back to my questions...

I know, I'm easing you into it here.

Have patience!

Naturally, knowing the face of God can only be done by opening ourselves to having the potential to knowing the mind of God.

So it follows that it will be different to each of us, and will reflect that transcendental part of us which is closest to God.

So to each of us, if we have cleansed ourselves, God looks like ourselves.

katydid

Datallus wrote: »

I know, I'm easing you into it here.

Have patience!

Naturally, knowing the face of God can only be done by opening ourselves to having the potential to knowing the mind of God.

So it follows that it will be different to each of us, and will reflect that transcendental part of us which is closest to God.

So to each of us, if we have cleansed ourselves, God looks like ourselves.

I get all that, but that's encountering the divine in an abstract sense. Not meeting an actual being, that you can prove exists, like you can prove your wife or your canary exists.

Datallus

katydid wrote: »

I get all that, but that's encountering the divine in an abstract sense. Not meeting an actual being, that you can prove exists, like you can prove your wife or your canary exists.

The definition of the divine is that it is abstract, I would have thought.

There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see!

katydid

Datallus wrote: »

The definition of the divine is that it is abstract, I would have thought.

There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see!

Yes, the divine IS abstract. So you can't meet it or prove it exists. It all boils down to faith.

Delirium

catbear wrote: »

I don't remember meeting you.

Isn't it funny how doubting my existence is acceptable yet no one dares question Santa's credentials?

MOD NOTE

Less of the silliness please.

Thanks for your attention.

antiskeptic

katydid wrote: »

Right...

More like .. Righteousness.

Very attractive.

katydid

antiskeptic wrote: »

More like .. Righteousness.

Very attractive.

Huh?

antiskeptic

Datallus wrote: »

If you have a dirty heart, then you can't see god.

It seems to hinge more on being born again - an event which results in seeing God. This doesn't produce a clean heart in the one sense (given the propensity for selfishness, lust, greed, anger et al remains) .. but does in another sense: you are legally declared and seen as righteous, since all your subsequent sin, and the unrighteousness which attaches to that, is placed on anothers account.

antiskeptic

katydid wrote: »

Huh?

Righteousness. It's an attribute of God (just like it's an attribute, to greater or lesser degree in people). It's attractive where ever you see it but when a person is utterly righteous then they are very attractive.

katydid

antiskeptic wrote: »

Righteousness. It's an attribute of God (just like it's an attribute, to greater or lesser degree in people). It's attractive where ever you see it but when a person is utterly righteous then they are very attractive.

Yep, I know what it means. I don't know what YOU mean. I'm sure you consider yourself very righteous but that's not what this discussion is about.

You claim you met God. I asked what he or she looked like; why are you so slow to tell?

antiskeptic

katydid wrote: »

I get all that, but that's encountering the divine in an abstract sense. Not meeting an actual being, that you can prove exists, like you can prove your wife or your canary exists.

Not so much abstract as spiritual. If you suppose the spiritual aspect as a sense which was formerly disconnected and inoperable but becomes connected and operable then you see there is nothing abstract about it.

You would be right in saying that all our senses (taking the average person) are prone to some error. And they are, as is the spiritual one. But we no more need to suppose this spiritual sense utterly unreliable as we do any other sense. Our senses are overwhelmingly reliable given that man has long gotten along very well in the world, whatever about their ability to mis-sense/mis-interpret/mis-conclude

I would just note that I am speaking in the case of an actual born again event in which man's spiritual sense arises from the dead. This is not to be conflated which mans age-long spiritual side which supposes gods at ever turn. Such a characteristic can be seen as background radiation - a residual, vestigal remnant in spiritually dead people which was left over from the spiritual "Big Bang" event which resulted in all men dying spiritually. Way back when, Adam & Eve stuff.

The above explains why I don't feel any need to significantly distrust the spiritual sense which got switched on 15 years ago or so. Any more than a man need distrust his eyes if he see's a careening car heading across the median at him. "Prone to error" is a marginal thing when it comes to our senses

antiskeptic

katydid wrote: »

Yep, I know what it means. I don't know what YOU mean.

I mean God is 100% righteous and since righteousness is an attractive trait then God is very attractive.

I'm sure you consider yourself very righteous but that's not what this discussion is about.

I consider myself as God considers me. Utterly righteous and without blemish. And a sinner.

You claim you met God. I asked what he or she looked like; why are you so slow to tell?

You didn't ask me and I'm quicker to see stuff addressed to me than not?

My post above should help anyway.

looksee

Wikipedia: Righteousness (also called rectitude) is a theological concept in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It is an attribute that implies that a person's actions are justified, and can have the connotation that the person has been "judged" or "reckoned" as leading a life that is pleasing to God.

RIGHTEOUS - Merriam-Webster

1
: acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
2
a : morally right or justifiable <a righteous decision>
b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality <righteous indignation>

Is it not a little - smug? - to self-assess this? Who does get to make the judgement?

antiskeptic

looksee wrote: »

Is it not a little - smug? - to self-assess this? Who does get to make the judgement?

It's a legal/forensic/technical declaration made by God about me (and every other person who is "born again"). All the unrighteousness things I do are laid on another (Jesus) who is considered the guilty one, leaving me viewed by God as one with a clean slate.

It's not because I act righteously that I am considered righteous by God (I don't act righteously, many many times a day). But because of this arrangement.

If that's sufficient for God (and it's God who constructed this arrangement) then who am I to argue?

katydid

antiskeptic wrote: »

I mean God is 100% righteous and since righteousness is an attractive trait then God is very attractive.



I consider myself as God considers me. Utterly righteous and without blemish. And a sinner.



You didn't ask me and I'm quicker to see stuff addressed to me than not?

My post above should help anyway.

What has any of this got to do with doubt?