Insurance disc question.

RustyNut

So, a friend has a yoke sitting around at his place, its taxed and nct'd. I was thinking about borrowing it for a couple of weeks and will be driving it on my driving other cars extension. Anybody know where would I stand regarding displaying a disc seeing as there isnt one for this car. Would I be committing an offence, risking points?

Ant695

I always thought to drive another car it had to be insured first?

RustyNut

Ant695 wrote: »

I always thought to drive another car it had to be insured first?

Definitely not with my insurer anyway.

biddy21

I am sure that there the car has to be insured by someone else first.

jinkybhoy

just check section 5 on insurance cert - some insurers state it needs to be insured but a lot of them don't - just have certain other exclusions.

Not displaying a disc isn't an offence asfaik - just show your own cert that shows your are covered to drive other cars.

bazz26

The car doesn't necessarily need to be insured for someone else to drive it using third party extension under their policy. The car does require to have a valid NCT though afaik. And you need to have no insurable interest in it, ie it's not your/your spouse's car or a hire car. Just double check your policy that you are actually insured to drive it. People can assume they are insured to drive other cars but find out later when they are stopped that they are actually not.

Non displaying of a valid insurance disc is a separate offense to not having insurance. The fine for non displaying of a valid insurance disc is something like €60, no points incurred.

slimjimmc

jinkybhoy wrote: »

just check section 5 on insurance cert - some insurers state it needs to be insured but a lot of them don't - just have certain other exclusions.

Not displaying a disc isn't an offence asfaik - just show your own cert that shows your are covered to drive other cars.

It very much is.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/si/135/made/en/print

Part 1
Offence under section 11(4) of Road Traffic Act 1961
Road Traffic (Insurance Disc) Regulations 1984 ( S.I. No. 355 of 1984 )

Article
5(as amended by Article 4 of S.I. No. 227 of 1986 )


Description of Contravention
Contravention of requirements - insurance disc to be fixed to and exhibited on a vehicle

RustyNut

biddy21 wrote: »

I am sure that there the car has to be insured by someone else first.

I phoned to ask that very question, explained the situation and was told that no policy needs to be in place on the borrowed car but they couldn't/wouldn't answer the disc question.

CiniO

RustyNut wrote: »

So, a friend has a yoke sitting around at his place, its taxed and nct'd. I was thinking about borrowing it for a couple of weeks and will be driving it on my driving other cars extension. Anybody know where would I stand regarding displaying a disc seeing as there isnt one for this car. Would I be committing an offence, risking points?

Yes, you would be committing an offence, but not risking points.
Fine for non-display of insurance disc is €60 and no penalty points.

RustyNut

CiniO wrote: »

Yes, you would be committing an offence, but not risking points.
Fine for non-display of insurance disc is €60 and no penalty points.

Thats the answer I was hoping for. 60 quid wont break the bank,but points would not be good.

Foxhole Norman

RustyNut wrote: »

Thats the answer I was hoping for. 60 quid wont break the bank,but points would not be good.

Honestly, if you carried your policy around in that car stating you can drive other cars then I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find a Guard that would fine you for it. Just don't park it on the street!

RustyNut

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

Honestly, if you carried your policy around in that car stating you can drive other cars then I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find a Guard that would fine you for it. Just don't park it on the street!

Thats the plan.
Typical Irish law, clear as mud and if you don't encounter the wrong guard you will be ok.

Atlantic Dawn

Bring your own insurance disc and put it in the window, also carry your own certificate of insurance on your person, problem sorted. The disc indicated the policy number for which the cover corresponds to.

bazz26

I wouldn't be putting a disc from another car in the window of a borrowed car, that disc has the other car's reg on it and has no bearing on the borrowed car. It would ask more questions than answer. Having your policy document with you would be more relevant.

To Elland Back

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Bring your own insurance disc and put it in the window, also carry your own certificate of insurance on your person, problem sorted. The disc indicated the policy number for which the cover corresponds to.

The disc is specific to the vehicle that is insured under the policy. It is an offence to display a disc on any other vehicle to which it is designated

duckduck1991

Just carry your cert wit you..It has a polisy number onit that can be checked by a simple call to your insurance company..If its a tempory car your using itd take an awful ass to fine you for no disk on window..

RustyNut

Thanks for the replies lads. Ill just go with carrying my cert with me and hope not to have a problem.

To Elland Back

People forget that the car can cause an accident rather that the driving of it. Your driving of other cars extension covers your liability, but if the car is the cause (dodgy brakes, steering, suspension etc), then the owner of the car is liable. For an owner/driver, his policy covers both aspects. If the car itself has no policy, there is gap in cover. Gardai are correct to take action if there is no disc displayed

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

Yes, you would be committing an offence, but not risking points.
Fine for non-display of insurance disc is €60 and no penalty points.

I'll clarify this, no offence would be committed when driving another vehicle (with no insurance disc displayed) on your own policy, and again no offence is commited until 10 days have passed since it became insured on your own car.

By law no car is required to carry an insurance disc until 10 days have passed since the car became insured.

Your insurance applies to your own car at all times except for when you actually drive another car under the driving other cars provisions, and as such the 10 day rule above an't apply to the other car as each time you get out your insurance resets by default back to your own car and therefore 10 days from start date can never actually occur-just bear one thing in mind, when driving another car it isn't insured when you park up etc, only when you are in it/driving it.

To Elland Back

GM228 wrote: »

I'll clarify this, no offence would be committed when driving another vehicle (with no insurance disc displayed) on your own policy.



By law no car is required to carry an insurance disc until 10 days have passed since the car became insured.

Your insurance applies to your vehicle at all times except for when you actually drive another, as such the 10 day rule can't apply to the other car as each time you get out your insurance resets by default back to your own car and therefore 10 days from start date can never actually occur-just bear one thing in mind, when driving another car it isn't insured when you park up etc, only when you are in it/driving it.

Don't quote me in that context unless you are disagreeing with what I'm saying. I pointed out that it is an offence to display a disc on any vehicle other than the one to which it is designated.

As for your point about the 10 day rule, you are right. You have 10 days to produce. Just because you stop driving the other car though, does not mean you do not have to fulfil your obligation to produce and a fine will ensue

GM228

To Elland Back wrote: »

Don't quote me in that context unless you are disagreeing with what I'm saying. I pointed out that it is an offence to display a disc on any vehicle other than the one to which it is designated.

As for your point about the 10 day rule, you are right. You have 10 days to produce. Just because you stop driving the other car though, does not mean you do not have to fulfil your obligation to produce and a fine will ensue

Not disagreeing with you, you are 100% correct regarding the wrong disc, you said they are correct to take action if no disc displayed, but I take it that may have been a typo?

The 10 days to produce is different to the 10 days to display rules, as I said you dont legally have to display a disc on any vehicle until 10 days have passed, if you were stopped on the 9th day for example you then would have a further 10 days to produce the disc/documents.

I never said you don't have to produce after 10 days on a car just because you stop driving it, that's the 10 day to display rule I'm talking about. When required to produce for a car you drive on the other cars provision you have 10 days as in any case, however in that case you bring your own insurance certificate showing your insurance is valid and covers other cars, and then you bring the certificate of the car you were stopped in to show you don't own it.

Hope that clarifies.

slimjimmc

GM228 wrote: »

Not disagreeing with you, you are 100% correct regarding the wrong disc, you said they are correct to take action if no disc displayed, but I take it that may have been a typo?

The 10 days to produce is different to the 10 days to display rules, as I said you dont legally have to display a disc on any vehicle until 10 days have passed, if you were stopped on the 9th day for example you then would have a further 10 days to produce the disc/documents.

I never said you don't have to produce after 10 days on a car just because you stop driving it, that's the 10 day to display rule I'm talking about. When required to produce for a car you drive on the other cars provision you have 10 days as in any case, however in that case you bring your own insurance certificate showing your insurance is valid and covers other cars, and then you bring the certificate of the car you were stopped in to show you don't own it.

Hope that clarifies.

You're allowed to drive without displaying an insurance disc up to 10 days from the date the policy was authenticated, this date is stated on the policy certificate. I'm not sure if you're saying you don't need to display a disc for 10 days after borrowing a car under 'driving other cars' extension but that would appear to be an incorrect interpretation.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1986/si/227/made/en/print

"5. (1) A person shall not use a vehicle in a public place, after the expiration of a period of ten days commencing on the date of authentication of the certificate of insurance, unless the vehicle carries an insurance disc in the manner specified in sub-article (2) of this article.

GM228

slimjimmc wrote: »

You're allowed to drive without displaying an insurance disc up to 10 days from the date the policy was authenticated, this date is stated on the policy certificate. I'm not sure if you're saying you don't need to display a disc for 10 days after borrowing a car under 'driving other cars' extension but that would appear to be an incorrect interpretation.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1986/si/227/made/en/print

It's not an interpretation (according to my brother anyway who is a Guard), the act is a bit grey I think when it comes to this situation. I was speaking to him a few weeks ago about this very subject.

This is how he described it (admittedly it is hard to get your head around it):-

When driving a car under the "driving other cars" extension you are exempt from the 10 day display rule (unless you didn't have permission to take the car) as it only applies to the owner of the vehicle (in this case, but otherwise both are liable) and you can't drive another car under those provisions if you own the vehicle anyway or take it without the owners permission.

Obviously the above does not take away from the requirements for you to prove you were insured under your own policy.

You are driving under your insurance and the date of vehicle authentication is in respect of your primary vehicle, your certificate of insurance vehicle details apply to your car only and not the other car you are driving and so it can't be the basis of the 10 day rule, it's a policy condition as opposed to the certificate itself that gives you the cover in other cars.

Authentication of cover is confirmation via that condition that your are covered to drive the vehicle in this case, not your policy or it's start date, and you are only covered to drive any other vehicle when you step into it and so the authentication only commences when you enter the vehicle, you have now satisfied the legal requirement.

The vehicle you drive under "driving under vehicles" does not require it's own disc under your policy then because it's a technical impossibility to have 10 days cover (unless it's an actual temporary transfer of insurance which is to last 10 days or longer-that's different) as the cover only starts when you drive the vehicle, and ends again (reverts to your own vehicle) when you leave the vehicle, so you can't be liable as you arn't breaking the law, if you drove someone elses car under their insurance (i.e second driver/open drive) then both you and the owner are liable if no disc is displayed and 10 days have passed since their policy start date.

Obviously Garda discretion will come into effect in all this, very rarely would any issues arise like this.

It's worth nothing that Tax is a seperate issue in which case you could be done for non-display even though you don't own the car.

NB: Edited largely based on my brothers wording.

GM228

I can understand the basis of the argument, but on a personal note I'd imagine if such a case came before a court a judge would see authentication as simply meaning proof, the proof is the original policy?

So where would that leave the situation? Very grey area indeed.

That aside, I'd imagine such a case would be struck out either way.