**Spoilers** Series 9, Episode 10 - "Face the Raven"

SparklersJo

So c'mere, I might just have to re-watch it, but can someone explain to me what Me's plan was from the start - I got a bit confused there. She wanted him to unlock yer wan from her stasis chamber, using the TARDIS key, although that bit wasn't important to her, just coz she wanted him to stick his arm in a hole so he would have the teleportation band stuck to his arm? Is that right? But did she say that it was someone else's idea/plan, and she had agreed to it? And we don't know whose plan it was? Is that right?

Das Kitty

SparklersJo wrote: »

So c'mere, I might just have to re-watch it, but can someone explain to me what Me's plan was from the start - I got a bit confused there. She wanted him to unlock yer wan from her stasis chamber, using the TARDIS key, although that bit wasn't important to her, just coz she wanted him to stick his arm in a hole so he would have the teleportation band stuck to his arm? Is that right? But did she say that it was someone else's idea/plan, and she had agreed to it? And we don't know whose plan it was? Is that right?

Someone paid / convinced her to capture the Doctor for them. They wanted him without the Tardis (hence the keyhole to take the key).

She lured him with the mystery and trapped him with his own compulsion to save someone (yer wan in the status chamber)

That last bit felt a bit weak to me. Surely he could see it was a trap. Unless he's dropped a few hundred IQ points.

dori_dormer

Can't the tardis find him if it wants to tho? Unless they amange to put him somewhere the tardis can't go? Also 10 could open the tardis without a key, so it's not really that important I don't think

Was there a hint of river song being in the christmas episode or was that my imagination? Maybe she drives the tardis to save him?

Das Kitty

dori_dormer wrote: »

Can't the tardis find him if it wants to tho? Unless they amange to put him somewhere the tardis can't go? Also 10 could open the tardis without a key, so it's not really that important I don't think

Was there a hint of river song being in the christmas episode or was that my imagination? Maybe she drives the tardis to save him?

You might want to spoiler that Christmas episode speculation!

I'd say this next storyline will be resolved before Dec. 25

bren2001

Penn wrote: »

I think I've copped the importance of the confession seal thing. I'll put it in spoilers but it's just my theory:

The Time Lords have been asking "Doctor Who?" so when The Doctor says his real name, they'll know it's the right universe and they can return. Since the Doctor won't say his name to bring them back, maybe his real name is in his confession seal. The Time Lords need someone to open it, say The Doctor's real name, and then they can return, bringing Gallifrey back.

It's an interesting concept and I honestly think this is close to the answer. However, Gallifrey is in a pocket universe i.e. it is frozen in an instance of time (afaik). Surely, the time lords there do not have a choice as to whether they can return to a particular universe but instead must be rescued by the Doctor. I personally think, the confession dial either is the pocket universe or contains the co-ordinates in some form. As well as his name, his name has to be in there.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

A thought just struck me......

I don't have any of the episodes recorded so I can't check, maybe someone else can?

In the very first episode this series when Missy meets up with Clara and Clara asks her how she's still alive Missy tells a story about "a man" (The Doctor) being trapped somewhere on his own, without his tardis, and how he managed to escape. I can't remember her exact words but is it possible that the story she was telling then is about how The Doctor escapes from wherever he's been sent this week? Which would add more fuel to the Clara's not really dead, or was dead all along theories.

Das Kitty

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

A thought just struck me......

I don't have any of the episodes recorded so I can't check, maybe someone else can?

In the very first episode this series when Missy meets up with Clara and Clara asks her how she's still alive Missy tells a story about "a man" (The Doctor) being trapped somewhere on his own, without his tardis, and how he managed to escape. I can't remember her exact words but is it possible that the story she was telling then is about how The Doctor escapes from wherever he's been sent this week? Which would add more fuel to the Clara's not really dead, or was dead all along theories.

I have them. I might rewatch this evening.

Mr Bloat

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

A thought just struck me......

I don't have any of the episodes recorded so I can't check, maybe someone else can?

In the very first episode this series when Missy meets up with Clara and Clara asks her how she's still alive Missy tells a story about "a man" (The Doctor) being trapped somewhere on his own, without his tardis, and how he managed to escape. I can't remember her exact words but is it possible that the story she was telling then is about how The Doctor escapes from wherever he's been sent this week? Which would add more fuel to the Clara's not really dead, or was dead all along theories.

You can watch the episode on Youtube if you ignore the beardy guy taking up most of the screen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaf0OmLr3hI

You can read a transcript of the episode here

Interesting idea. It does look like he is running around a castle in both Missy's recollection and the trailer for next week and it looks like he is wearing the same clothes in both too.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mr Bloat wrote: »

You can read a transcript of the episode here

Interesting idea. It does look like he is running around a castle in both Missy's recollection and the trailer for next week and it looks like he is wearing the same clothes in both too.

Only thing that doesn't fit my kind of theory there is that he's got the screwdriver in Missy's story.

bren2001

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

A thought just struck me......

I don't have any of the episodes recorded so I can't check, maybe someone else can?

In the very first episode this series when Missy meets up with Clara and Clara asks her how she's still alive Missy tells a story about "a man" (The Doctor) being trapped somewhere on his own, without his tardis, and how he managed to escape. I can't remember her exact words but is it possible that the story she was telling then is about how The Doctor escapes from wherever he's been sent this week? Which would add more fuel to the Clara's not really dead, or was dead all along theories.

That's some memory to remember that conversation. Below is the rough transcript, skipped over irrelevant stuff she says to Clara about eating her etc.

Missy:Consider the Doctor. The Doctor, trapped. The Doctor, alone. You all right there, dear?
Okay, I'm going to tell you a story of the Doctor. It's classic. On the run, no Tardis. No friends, no help. In other words, the Doctor, happy. It was a long time ago.
Doesn't matter which face he was wearing, they're all the Doctor to me. So let's give it to the eyebrows.
He's travelling by teleporter. Unfortunately, his teleporter is out of power. Also unfortunate, he's being stalked by, oh, say about fifty android assassins? I may be rounding up.
Fifty invisible, indestructible android assassins, all exclusively programmed to kill him.
The Doctor, then. Surrounded. Outnumbered. Outgunned. And freeze. Nanoseconds to live. Four, I'd say, being generous. Now, my question is this. How did he survive?

Clara: Where did he get that teleport thingy?

Missy: Oh, good, good. He stole one from an android.

Clara: So, I'm guessing he uses the same energy as the android weapons, right?

Missy: Excellent! Not seeing you as sandwiches now.

Clara: Okay, then. He uses the energy wave from the android weapons to recharge the teleport bracelet and at the exact moment he's supposed to disintegrate,

Clara: He actually teleports. Hang on, that's how you did it. That's how we escaped the Daleks.

Missy: I modified the same principle for our vortex manipulators, yes. Blew them off, I'm afraid. But the Doctor, he, he improvised it. He must have got through several thousand calculations in the time it takes to fire up a disintegrator. Seriously, what a swot!

Clara: So the androids think he's dead and the Doctor escapes.

Missy: No, he's the Doctor. He fell into a nest of vampire monkeys. But that's another story!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

bren2001 wrote: »

That's some memory to remember that conversation. Below is the rough transcript, skipped over irrelevant stuff she says to Clara about eating her etc.

I literally woke up with the thought in my head, no idea where it came from.

What we know is Missy has the Doctor's confession dial at the start of the series and it's come up again in the most recent episode. She's not been seen since that episode where she was saying to the Dalek's that she's got an idea. She tells the story about the Doctor escaping from somewhere on his own. Now that could have been just to illustrate her own explanation for how they had just escaped, which is how I took it at the time, but it could have been something more.

I still think too that there was something a bit weird about how the Doctor interacted with Clara the first time he saw her this series. Again, at the time, I assumed it was just because he was sure he was about to die but now I wonder was there more?

As sad as I am about Clara I don't want them to undo her death with some timey wimey twist but I wouldn't mind there being some sort of twist to what we've been seeing this series.

Angron

If Clara does come back, I'm quite probably giving up on the show.

Mr.Saturn

Angron wrote: »

If Clara does come back, I'm quite probably giving up on the show.

I think this is it for 'our' Clara. The possibility's always there for one of her echoes to pop up along The Doctor's timeline considering Clara's forever written into the show as the one undoing The Great Intelligence's havoc upon The Doctor's timeline. Clara, along with Ashildr and River Song, Moffat's got himself a holy trinity of characters he can 'kill' without ever having to leave dead. I, in a fit of fantasy, hope for a non-Torchwood spinoff in which they all argue whose immortality is more tragic.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

I think this is it for 'our' Clara. The possibility's always there for one of her echoes to pop up along The Doctor's timeline considering Clara's forever written into the show as the one undoing The Great Intelligence's havoc upon The Doctor's timeline. Clara, along with Ashildr and River Song, Moffat's got himself a holy trinity of characters he can 'kill' without ever having to leave dead. I, in a fit of fantasy, hope for a non-Torchwood spinoff in which they all argue whose immortality is more tragic.

Well, Coleman has left so we won't be seeing Clara after this series, whether or not that means Clara herself is gone is another question entirely.
I never really understood the companion thing because unless they die, like Clara, or have their memory erased, like Donna, can't the Doctor just pop in and out to them whenever he likes? Actually, even when they die he could do that. Or is there a rule about that?

Eugene Norman

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Well, Coleman has left so we won't be seeing Clara after this series, whether or not that means Clara herself is gone is another question entirely.
I never really understood the companion thing because unless they die, like Clara, or have their memory erased, like Donna, can't the Doctor just pop in and out to them whenever he likes? Actually, even when they die he could do that. Or is there a rule about that?

No hard and fast rule. But if he went backwards in his companions timeline after they died or left he might reveal something about their death or leaving. They could also tell past him his future.

(and maybe that has happened? Although the tv show always goes forward in the doctors timeline this season may have skipped that. There's that strange mention of a "month")

Eugene Norman

The impossible girl – did she go forward in time?

Angron

Eugene Norman wrote: »

No hard and fast rule. But if he went backwards in his companions timeline after they died or left he might reveal something about their death or leaving. They could also tell past him his future.

(and maybe that has happened? Although the tv show always goes forward in the doctors timeline this season may have skipped that. There's that strange mention of a "month")

Could be some of that "not crossing your own timeline" stuff that they throw out from time to time. (though that was always very inconsistent when it came to River...)

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Wasn't the Doctor in his own timeline last series in Listen? Or was that just Clara?

Angron

I think that was just Clara.

pixelburp

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Wasn't the Doctor in his own timeline last series in Listen? Or was that just Clara?

Only Clara left the tardis iirc; in fact the doctor was unconscious at the time too. The tardis itself was sounding the cloister bell / emergency warning so it knew it was somewhere it shouldn't be

martingriff

Eugene Norman wrote: »

No hard and fast rule. But if he went backwards in his companions timeline after they died or left he might reveal something about their death or leaving. They could also tell past him his future.

(and maybe that has happened? Although the tv show always goes forward in the doctors timeline this season may have skipped that. There's that strange mention of a "month")

Also if he got a companion from an earlier time and they died it could create a paradox off some sort.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

martingriff wrote: »

Also if he got a companion from an earlier time and they died it could create a paradox off some sort.

What about when they travel forward in time though? Say the episodes at the start of this series where they were under the lake. Say Clara had died in the future would she not still be alive in the present day? Or is that too much logic to apply to Who?

martingriff

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What about when they travel forward in time though? Say the episodes at the start of this series where they were under the lake. Say Clara had died in the future would she not still be alive in the present day? Or is that too much logic to apply to Who?

Well she be alive in the present until she went with the Doctor to that future time when she died. But lets say (and I will use dates here to try and make it easier) Clara met the Doctor on the 1st December and they travelled forward in time and she dies then she is dead even in the present as that was her. But then lets say the Doctor goes back to the 28th November to Clara as he missed her and they go away and she dies then she could not have been around on the 1st to travel with the Doctor to die so then the doctor would not have traveled to the 28th and if he did not then she would not die that time so would die on the 1st and an endless loop would happen and a rip in time i they would go that way.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

martingriff wrote: »

Well she be alive in the present until she went with the Doctor to that future time when she died. But lets say (and I will use dates here to try and make it easier) Clara met the Doctor on the 1st December and they travelled forward in time and she dies then she is dead even in the present as that was her. But then lets say the Doctor goes back to the 28th November to Clara as he missed her and they go away and she dies then she could not have been around on the 1st to travel with the Doctor to die so then the doctor would not have traveled to the 28th and if he did not then she would not die that time so would die on the 1st and an endless loop would happen and a rip in time i they would go that way.

Weirdly.... that makes sense.

martingriff

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Weirdly.... that makes sense.

I have my moments no mater how few and far between they are

pixelburp

Trying to unspool the mechanics of Time Travel in fiction often feels like a fools errand to me; if the top physicists in the world haven't worked it out yet, what hope have writers? It's one of the few areas I try not to look too hard into, just in case I go all cross-eyed and have to sit in a darkened room for a while

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

pixelburp wrote: »

Trying to unspool the mechanics of Time Travel in fiction often feels like a fools errand to me; if the top physicists in the world haven't worked it out yet, what hope have writers? It's one of the few areas I try not to look too hard into, just in case I go all cross-eyed and have to sit in a darkened room for a while

Yeah, it's just usually they have some hard rules to it, whether they're "realistically" possible or not. Doctor Who sometimes seems like they're making it up as they go.

pixelburp

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Yeah, it's just usually they have some hard rules to it, whether they're "realistically" possible or not. Doctor Who sometimes seems like they're making it up as they go.

As you've said yourself, you came to Who relatively recently so ... yeah. Welcome to Dr Who! Continuity ain't the shows strong point, never has been haha ;D

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

pixelburp wrote: »

As you've said yourself, you came to Who relatively recently so ... yeah. Welcome to Dr Who! Continuity ain't the shows strong point, never has been haha ;D

Yeah, I've found if possible just enjoy the episode for the 45/50 minutes while it's on and then it's best not to think about it after

Eugene Norman

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What about when they travel forward in time though? Say the episodes at the start of this series where they were under the lake. Say Clara had died in the future would she not still be alive in the present day? Or is that too much logic to apply to Who?

Clara is travelling with the doctor so she would be dead from then on in her timeline. If she left the uk in Nov 2015 to travel with the doctor to the lake and then died she doesn't exist past Nov 2015 (her real time) anymore.