Car dealer refuses to fix issues with car...

Becks14

Hi guys,

Apologies if I've posted this in the incorrect forum, I'm looking for some advice re the above.

I bought a car off a dealer, part trade in part cash, 10 days ago now. When I bought it it was driving OK but with a slight pull to the left hand side. I got my neighbour, who is a mechanic, to look at it briefly to see if he could notice anything major with it. I've a warranty with the dealer so if the mechanic would have done any work on it it would have void my warranty.

He then told me to him the tracking was off, the car needed front and rear brake pads and there was a slight oil leak.

So I rang the dealer to see if he could do the work as it is under warranty for any engine or gearbox issues. He refused due to the type of warranty I had.

So I rang the mechanic again and he said that the car should not have been sold to me the way it was as it needed work, and to him a full service was not carried out by the dealers mechanic before it was sold to me.

So I've checked up on it a bit and under consumer rights a car can not be sold to a consumer if it is not roadworthy. As the dealer is point blank refusing to resolve the issues on it, would I be best off going down the road of the small claims court?

The only thing I'm concerned about is the length of time it could take for the court hearing etc as the car needs to be serviced and work done on it asap.

I'd appreciate any help, opinions or guidance on this. I'd also like to apologise for my lack of knowledge regarding correct technical terms for car parts or issues!!!

Thanks,
Rebecca

pablo128

You really should have had the car looked at before you bought it. The warranty as you have stated is an engine and gearbox warranty. That doesn't cover brakes, but should cover an oil leak.

Becks14

Thanks Pablo123

I test drove it a few days before I actually bought it and it felt fine to me.

I agree, it should at least cover the oil leak but he is refusing to carry out any work at all on it.

Mr. Incognito

Caveat Emptor I am afraid

Becks14

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Caveat Emptor I am afraid

:mad: probably my own fault so!

At least it's not major work that needs to be done, fingers crossed!

Dublinstiofán

If it's a SIMI dealer you could complain to them

bucketybuck

A few thoughts.

Vehicle tracking and brake pads are most definitely not covered by any engine or gearbox warranty. The oil leak might be, but you will need to know exactly what is leaking and the chances are high that it still wouldn't be covered.

Your problem is that an obvious oil leak and worn brake pads are things that I personally would expect to be spotted when checking the car pre-sale, its not hard to look through most wheels and check the pads. Its not perfect, but its easily done. You would have been far better having your neighbour check the car before sale not after.

Your mechanic says it wasn't serviced but thats not relevant, the dealer is not obliged to fully service the car before sale. Sure its good practice and good dealers will service the car, but its not required. So the time to ask for a service and new brake pads was before the sale, not ten days later. To be honest, its like coming back ten days later and demanding new tyres because the rears are worn, sure they might be worn, but they were worn at the time and you said nothing so its no longer the dealers problem.

As to the main point, did the dealer sell a car that was not roadworthy? Not necessarily. The car needs brake pads but are they metal to metal? It needs tracking but is it just slightly out? Is the oil leak just a weep from a seal somewhere? Those items are not necessarily items that mean the vehicle is not roadworthy, I've seen cars with bad tracking, slight oil leaks and coming near the time of needing brakes that were perfectly safe to drive at that particular moment.

All in all, it seems the dealer has already made their position clear, and my opinion is that you will not gain anything by taking this down a legal route, the faults are such that it wouldn't be worth the hassle. Frankly, you could almost consider yourself lucky, you have just a few service items to get fixed, other people have had blown engines and gearboxes without any joy from some of these so-called dealers!

Becks14

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

If it's a SIMI dealer you could complain to them

I've just checked and they're not, thanks though!

Becks14

bucketybuck wrote: »

A few thoughts.

Vehicle tracking and brake pads are most definitely not covered by any engine or gearbox warranty. The oil leak might be, but you will need to know exactly what is leaking and the chances are high that it still wouldn't be covered.

Your problem is that an obvious oil leak and worn brake pads are things that I personally would expect to be spotted when checking the car pre-sale, its not hard to look through most wheels and check the pads. Its not perfect, but its easily done. You would have been far better having your neighbour check the car before sale not after.

Your mechanic says it wasn't serviced but thats not relevant, the dealer is not obliged to fully service the car before sale. Sure its good practice and good dealers will service the car, but its not required. So the time to ask for a service and new brake pads was before the sale, not ten days later. To be honest, its like coming back ten days later and demanding new tyres because the rears are worn, sure they might be worn, but they were worn at the time and you said nothing so its no longer the dealers problem.

As to the main point, did the dealer sell a car that was not roadworthy? Not necessarily. The car needs brake pads but are they metal to metal? It needs tracking but is it just slightly out? Is the oil leak just a weep from a seal somewhere? Those items are not necessarily items that mean the vehicle is not roadworthy, I've seen cars with bad tracking, slight oil leaks and coming near the time of needing brakes that were perfectly safe to drive at that particular moment.

All in all, it seems the dealer has already made their position clear, and my opinion is that you will not gain anything by taking this down a legal route, the faults are such that it wouldn't be worth the hassle. Frankly, you could almost consider yourself lucky, you have just a few service items to get fixed, other people have had blown engines and gearboxes without any joy from some of these so-called dealers!

Yeah I'm most definitely lucky that's it nothing major and should be easily fixed.

Agreed, next time I'll be much more prepared before the car is actually purchased. More so annoyed with myself for not checking but also with his tone during the conversations Ive had with him.

It also has been back and forth for about a week now with the dealer himself, today wasn't the first point of contact I've made with him, but I understand and where you're coming from.

Thanks again!

punisher5112

I done a lot of different jobs with car dealerships and servicing in a lot of cases was lift bonnet check that there is oil and coolant and drop hood again.

That was its service so buying from dealers isn't always the better option.

I service my car before its time always do anything needed and don't wait for it to break.
It is very hard to get a decent looked after car here especially this rubbish of lady owner I cringe at those words if they are all like my sisters and missus.

Their cars would be falling apart before any work gets done.

1 drove 45k without a service:'(. Poor car don't know how it survived 3 years of her ownership.

Becks14

punisher5112 wrote: »

I done a lot of different jobs with car dealerships and servicing in a lot of cases was lift bonnet check that there is oil and coolant and drop hood again.

That was its service so buying from dealers isn't always the better option.

I service my car before its time always do anything needed and don't wait for it to break.
It is very hard to get a decent looked after car here especially this rubbish of lady owner I cringe at those words if they are all like my sisters and missus.

Their cars would be falling apart before any work gets done.

1 drove 45k without a service:'(. Poor car don't know how it survived 3 years of her ownership.

I've never been the best or worst at looking after previous cars, but I did a good bit of saving for this one so I think I'll have to change my ways and look after this one!

I also have started doing a good bit of driving in and out of work so I'll need to keep an eye on this one!

ger664

Is it due an NCT ? If so stick it through and get Dealer to rectify any faults.
Regardless of warranty surely the car is not fit for propose under sale of goods act if it is not road worthy.

slimjimmc

Becks14 wrote: »

So I've checked up on it a bit and under consumer rights a car can not be sold to a consumer if it is not roadworthy.

Consumer law says that the car must not be dangerously defective. I would expect that if your mechanic thought your car to have dangerous defects he would have told you not to drive it again until it was towed away and fixed.

Pat Mustard

Becks14 wrote: »

So I've checked up on it a bit and under consumer rights a car can not be sold to a consumer if it is not roadworthy.

S.13 of the SOGSS80 states that there is an implied condition that a vehicle should be free from dangerous defects.

However, the defects described by you don't necessarily sound dangerous at all.

Becks14 wrote: »

the tracking was off, the car needed front and rear brake pads and there was a slight oil leak.

It's not clear to me how you could succeed in your claim.

Where did you buy the car - was it at the dealer's premises?

The Sidewards Man

A car with incorrect tracking is a dangerous defect.

Pat Mustard

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

A car with incorrect tracking is a dangerous defect.

That is a matter of evidence, for a motor assessor to say.

If tracking is only out by a small amount, it isn't clear to me that a motor assessor would necessarily say that it would amount to a dangerous defect. But I am no motor assessor so maybe you are correct, I don't know for sure.

Yawns

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

A car with incorrect tracking is a dangerous defect.

Oh shut up. The tracking on cars get mis-aligned all the time due to pot holes, uneven tyre wear etc.

Car pulling slightly to the left is not a dangerous defect. It's wear & tear and is fixed with a simple tracking job, the most expensive of which will set you back about €60 and that's a full on proper laser tracking job. You can get it done for half the price if funds are tight. OP test drove the car and didn't cop it was pulling to the left so it can't have been that bad to be deemed dangerous.

bucketybuck

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

A car with incorrect tracking is a dangerous defect.

You don't know what you are talking about.

ABC101

Cars can pull to one side if there is unequal tyre pressure, ie front left at 22 psi and front right at 34 psi etc.

Tracking can be a fail for NCT test, I know this as I had a car which failed a NCT on tracking.

Fortunately, getting a car tracked is not expensive, 40 or 50 euro and does not take all day, perhaps a hour or so.

I'm not sure how anybody can tell brake pad condition by looking in through the wheel holes.

One can see the brake disc, put your finger in and feel the surface of it. But to check a pad it should really be taken out of the calliper.

WRT brakes and pads, I find it is best to take the whole calliper off and check the piston pots, make sure one of them is not seized in position. However a seized piston would be evident if the pad is worn at an angle, ie only 1/2 the pad is gripping the disc.

Worn pads should also make a squeelling noise as a brass rubbing strip comes into contact with the disc. However I'm not sure if all car makes have this feature today, some have a electronic wear down sensor instead.

With regard to engine / transmission oil leaks, I had one car with a oil leak, passed through 2 NCT tests, but on the 3rd test it failed. It's all subjective really, one tester can look at a oil leak and say it's "advisory" while another could look at the same leak and fail the car outright.

So check tyre pressures, make sure the are the same at the front, drive car again and see if it still pulls when driving at steady speed on a flat road.

Tracking can also be out due to worn ball joints / front suspension linkages, so best to check these as well.

duffman3833

i had an issue with my car, kinda similar to yours. I got my solicitor to write them a letter and they wern't long about getting work done

bucketybuck

ABC101 wrote: »

I'm not sure how anybody can tell brake pad condition by looking in through the wheel holes.

One can see the brake disc, put your finger in and feel the surface of it. But to check a pad it should really be taken out of the calliper.

Its best practice to remove the wheel and caliper, but if you want a quick guage of how worn the brakes are then you can quite easily see enough of the pad for a judgement. Nobody said it was a judgement of the condition and it isn't precise to the nearest km, but if you want some sense of the pad wear then it works perfectly well.

The OP needs brakes 10 days after sale, I would suggest that had she visually checked the pads at sale she wouldn't have seen any "meat" on them, which would/should have prompted discussion with the seller.

No doubt there is some model of wheel or alloy that completely blocks view of the pad, but that will be the exception rather than the rule.

Becks14

ger664 wrote: »

Is it due an NCT ? If so stick it through and get Dealer to rectify any faults.
Regardless of warranty surely the car is not fit for propose under sale of goods act if it is not road worthy.

It's not due an until this time next year, if the NCT was due soon enough I would have got the dealer to put it through!

Thanks for your feedback!

Becks14

slimjimmc wrote: »

Consumer law says that the car must not be dangerously defective. I would expect that if your mechanic thought your car to have dangerous defects he would have told you not to drive it again until it was towed away and fixed.

I haven't driven the car since last Wednesday when he initially looked at it.

Becks14

Pat Mustard wrote: »

S.13 of the SOGSS80 states that there is an implied condition that a vehicle should be free from dangerous defects.

However, the defects described by you don't necessarily sound dangerous at all.


It's not clear to me how you could succeed in your claim.

Where did you buy the car - was it at the dealer's premises?

Agreed, the issues on the car could be far worse than what they are.

Yes, it was at the dealer's premises.

slimjimmc

OP, even if the car does not have dangerous defects you still have your rights under consumer law. For example if the car was not as described or contained defects which the you couldn't reasonably be expected to notice then you may be entitled to redress (repair, replacement or refund). It can often be difficult to enforce your rights against some dealers but at least they're available.

Becks14

slimjimmc wrote: »

OP, even if the car does not have dangerous defects you still have your rights under consumer law. For example if the car was not as described or contained defects which the you couldn't reasonably be expected to notice then you may be entitled to redress (repair, replacement or refund). It can often be difficult to enforce your rights against some dealers but at least they're available.

From doing some research over the last few days I would have been under the same impression. But there are mixed opinions from this thread so I'm unsure what to do.

I do need the car back on the road ASAP, but don't want to bow down or give in to the dealer either.

Thanks for your feedback!

ABC101

Check your tyre pressures first Becky, make sure they are inflated to the correct pressure etc. drive the car and see it the pull to one side has diminished.

Check tyre pressure again a few days later as there may be a slow puncture in one tyre.

Another option is that you could contact a approved garage, speak to them about your concerns and ask them to visually inspect the tracking, front suspension, brake pads and discs, front suspension parts ball joints etc

Then inspect the oil leak.

This would be a visual inspection only, no maintenance at this point. In addition ask for a quotation to fix the defects.

Some oil leaks are cheap to fix as they only require a 20 euro gasket, but the labor costs in replacing a gasket can run into hundreds even thousands of euro sometimes.

If the assessment comes back as the car requires thousands of euro of work / spares then perhaps it could be worth seeking legal advice.

Becks14

ABC101 wrote: »

Check your tyre pressures first Becky, make sure they are inflated to the correct pressure etc. drive the car and see it the pull to one side has diminished.

Check tyre pressure again a few days later as there may be a slow puncture in one tyre.

Another option is that you could contact a approved garage, speak to them about your concerns and ask them to visually inspect the tracking, front suspension, brake pads and discs, front suspension parts ball joints etc

Then inspect the oil leak.

This would be a visual inspection only, no maintenance at this point. In addition ask for a quotation to fix the defects.

Some oil leaks are cheap to fix as they only require a 20 euro gasket, but the labor costs in replacing a gasket can run into hundreds even thousands of euro sometimes.

If the assessment comes back as the car requires thousands of euro of work / spares then perhaps it could be worth seeking legal advice.

Thanks ABC101, I'm sure the tyre pressure is as it should be but the car has been parked up since last week so I will double check again today for any slow punctures.

Thanks for the advice, appreciate it.

Del2005

Becks14 wrote: »

slimjimmc wrote: »

OP, even if the car does not have dangerous defects you still have your rights under consumer law. For example if the car was not as described or contained defects which the you couldn't reasonably be expected to notice then you may be entitled to redress (repair, replacement or refund). It can often be difficult to enforce your rights against some dealers but at least they're available.

From doing some research over the last few days I would have been under the same impression. But there are mixed opinions from this thread so I'm unsure what to do.

I do need the car back on the road ASAP, but don't want to bow down or give in to the dealer either.

Thanks for your feedback!

You said that your mechanic neighbour said it needs pads. There's a difference between needing pads and having worn out pads, since most cars are serviced annually it's best practice to replace during service, but worn out pads are a safety issue. You need to clarify how bad they are. Dangerously low pads you can chase the dealer to replace, but it'd need to be metal on metal to be dangerous, worn pads should have been spotted before sale and made part of the contract.

Then there are some dealers who just don't care. I was looking at a car a few years ago and pointed out that it needed at least 2 new tyres, it had 4 different brands but 2 where nearly at the wear limit marker, his response was that they were legal. I walked away then but someone will have bought it off him.

Unless you know a lot about cars you should always get a mechanic, or even a friend who knows about cars, to check it over BEFORE purchasing it. I would know my way around a car but I still get another set of more experienced eyes to check it out before I buy . Even the best get scammed but don't make it easy to be scammed.

Discodog

Is there no law regarding merchantable quality or fit for purpose as there is in the UK ?

coylemj

Discodog wrote: »

Is there no law regarding merchantable quality or fit for purpose as there is in the UK ?

They are principles governing the sale of a brand new item, I doubt if you can apply them to the sale of a secondhand car, here or in the UK.

slimjimmc

coylemj wrote: »

They are principles governing the sale of a brand new item, I doubt if you can apply them to the sale of a secondhand car, here or in the UK.

Consumer law applies to all consumer purchases not just brand new ones.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html

http://www.consumerhelp.ie/cars-rights-wrong