Fixed penalty notice - driver not visible from photo

Rob Thomas

Hi,

Apologies if this has come up before, I cant find a mention of it.

My company has received a speeding FCN for one of our vehicles, fair enough.

Unfortunately, the vehicle is used as a yard works vehicle so there is no record of who would be driving it, except when its out on work, which it rarely is now its 10 years old (corporate car hire).

The offence took place near the yard here so it really could be anyone of 4-5 guys who use the car regularly. The time does not narrow it down and its more than 4 weeks ago also. Any of them could have had it even 10-15 minutes apart.

I rang the FCN office and they had a look at the photo but its too dark to make out a driver.

Obviously, the penalty has to be taken on the chin, but as the car is registered to the company rather than an individual, who needs to take the points?

Thanks

NUTLEY BOY

Rob Thomas wrote: »

Hi,

Apologies if this has come up before, I cant find a mention of it.

My company has received a speeding FCN for one of our vehicles, fair enough.

Unfortunately, the vehicle is used as a yard works vehicle so there is no record of who would be driving it, except when its out on work, which it rarely is now its 10 years old (corporate car hire).

The offence took place near the yard here so it really could be anyone of 4-5 guys who use the car regularly. The time does not narrow it down and its more than 4 weeks ago also. Any of them could have had it even 10-15 minutes apart.

I rang the FCN office and they had a look at the photo but its too dark to make out a driver.

Obviously, the penalty has to be taken on the chin, but as the car is registered to the company rather than an individual, who needs to take the points?

Thanks

I would expect the points to go against a driver as they will be assigned against / to that driver's licence. The company does not hold a driving licence.

I don't what the position is about liability for the fine

BTW I thought that evidence of driving was a fundamental proof for driving offences. If the prosecution cannot identify the driver from their own evidence and the company, as owners, cannot nominate the relevant driver how could that case succeed ?

Victor

Ask for an electronic copy of the photo and shift the colour, contrast, brightness, etc.

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

BTW I thought that evidence of driving was a fundamental proof for driving offences. If the prosecution cannot identify the driver from their own evidence and the company, as owners, cannot nominate the relevant driver how could that case succeed ?

There are two offences (a) speeding (b) not identifying the driver.

brian_t

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

BTW I thought that evidence of driving was a fundamental proof for driving offences. If the prosecution cannot identify the driver from their own evidence and the company, as owners, cannot nominate the relevant driver how could that case succeed ?

If a delivery company got all their drivers to wear caps and dark glasses so they could not be individually identified in photos then they could never be successfully prosecuted for speeding offences caught by camera ?

Fred Swanson

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Victor

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

As I understand it, company-owned vehicles have a nominated individual as the registered owner.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Rob Thomas

Thanks everyone for their comments. Of course, we accept that someone has to have been driving but it's hard to pin down individual drivers without evidence. No one will volunteer to take the points!

When I rang the FCN office they said that their requirement was just to photograph the number plate and they had no obligation to provide a photo good enough to show the driver. Whether this is the truth or just the view of the guy I got, I don't know. It was 4pm when it happened so not that late that it would be that dark

Either way I have to find out where the points go. !

whippet

Is it not a requirement that 'pool' vehicles have a drivers log? And as such the company should have a record of all drivers and times?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Losty Dublin

Rob Thomas wrote: »

Thanks everyone for their comments. Of course, we accept that someone has to have been driving but it's hard to pin down individual drivers without evidence. No one will volunteer to take the points!
!

Deduct them all €200 from their wages until one of them comes clean

RainyDay

whippet wrote: »

Is it not a requirement that 'pool' vehicles have a drivers log? And as such the company should have a record of all drivers and times?

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Certainly a lesson there for the OP for the future.

Rob Thomas

whippet wrote: »

Is it not a requirement that 'pool' vehicles have a drivers log? And as such the company should have a record of all drivers and times?

There are driver logs and driver books for all the vehicles alright and of course tachometer cards where they are required. This is an older jeep which is used by the people at the office to run small errands etc. A road locally is closed due to the new motorway being built and it's used to go the long way around to the shops!!

It's actually one of 3 or 4 family members who is guilty in all probability, no one else really drives it.

Rob Thomas

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I was going to say "not us" but.........
To be fair we are very good with records on hire work, you have to be nowadays really but we are a lot better than most.

testicle

Nominate the one with the foreign driving license.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Rob Thomas

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Of course and in any event it would be a trivial thing to go to court for and risk being made an example of. The FCN is fair so it needs to be accepted.

Will narrow it down as best we can and someone will have to carry the can.

seamus

I recall there had been some talk in recent times of bringing in laws that would require a company to nominate a company director to receive penalty points where the driver could not be identified, but it seems that's not going to happen:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/no-penalty-points-for-drivers-of-company-cars-31147085.html

If they cannot identify the driver, I don't think even the fine is payable.

RainyDay

seamus wrote: »

I recall there had been some talk in recent times of bringing in laws that would require a company to nominate a company director to receive penalty points where the driver could not be identified, but it seems that's not going to happen:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/no-penalty-points-for-drivers-of-company-cars-31147085.html

If they cannot identify the driver, I don't think even the fine is payable.

I guess we should all set up off-the-shelf companies to own our vehicles so.

gizmo555

Victor wrote: »

There are two offences (a) speeding (b) not identifying the driver.

The driver committed the speeding offence and AFAIK there is no penalty if the company is unwilling or unable to identify the driver. That loophole has been there for a long time and it appears nothing has been done about it.