The cost of being a landlord - who would want to be one?

handlemaster

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/miriam-donohoe/allowing-landlords-some-tax-reliefs-would-go-some-way-to-help-ease-housing-crisis-34189124.html

Not very detailed but interesting article none the less on been a landlord...most LL I would say would leave it at his stage if all costs were covered. Certainly the accidental anyhow

lima

Is her point that it's the PRTB's fault that 30,000 people are deciding to illegally rent out their homes?

handlemaster

lima wrote: »

Is her point that it's the PRTB's fault that 30,000 people are deciding to illegally rent out their homes?

I dont think she says that 😕

jim-mcdee

The government wants to get rid of the one or two property landlord as its hard for them to get them to comply. IMO they are making a mistake. As more professional landlords enter, working on tighter margins, rents will only go one way. Up. And with large portfolio the renter will be left with less alternative but to pay. And while there will be more compliance, they are sure to find loopholes that mean the tax take stays the same or decreases.

LeinsterDub

Yeah who would want a 100 of thousands of euro asset essentially paid for them by a 3rd party and when it is paid off it's basically all profit.


My heart bleeds for you

borderlinemeath

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yeah who would want a 100 of thousands of euro asset essentially paid for them by a 3rd party and when it is paid off it's basically all profit.


My heart bleeds for you

Basically all profit? Are you for real? Do you think Revenue let you keep all the rent? Do you think that there's no CGT owed when you go to sell the house?

Most ill informed statement I've seen here by a landlord basher in a while!!

Thinkingaboutit

Landlords get loaded with costs and the chocolate tea (and really awkward) PRTB, the government barely builds social housing, and they wonder why there might be a shortage of rental accommodation. There is too the related matter of rent allowance being cut and the Minister hoped Landlords would subsidise the difference, and Threshold giving advice which explains why Landlords are highly dubious of rent allowance/SW tenants.

Diarmuid

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yeah who would want a 100 of thousands of euro asset essentially paid for them by a 3rd party and when it is paid off it's basically all profit.

Slept through Business 101?

ted1

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yeah who would want a 100 of thousands of euro asset essentially paid for them by a 3rd party and when it is paid off it's basically all profit.


My heart bleeds for you

like 30 years later? you need to take off the rose tinted glasses.

jim-mcdee

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yeah who would want a 100 of thousands of euro asset essentially paid for them by a 3rd party and when it is paid off it's basically all profit.


My heart bleeds for you

If you think its a gravy train, why not get on it? Maybe because you have to work your ****s off and scrimp and save to purchase it (out of money you already paid tax on might I add), and that's only the beginning of your work. But sure your would only the devilish landlord keeps you down, right?

Jen44

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yeah who would want a 100 of thousands of euro asset essentially paid for them by a 3rd party and when it is paid off it's basically all profit.


My heart bleeds for you

you must be joking!

ComfortKid

Are Landlords the moaniest people on the planet! If it wasn't worth it they wouldn't be doing it, it's that simple really

ComfortKid

Unless of course, we have 200 thousand "accidental" landlords..

jim-mcdee

ComfortKid wrote: »

Are Landlords the moaniest people on the planet! If it wasn't worth it they wouldn't be doing it, it's that simple really

Aren't renters the moaniest people on the planet! If they think its so easy, why don't they all do it?

ComfortKid

jim-mcdee wrote:

Aren't renters the moaniest people on the planet! If they think its so easy, why don't they all do it?

You think people who rent have a choice? They can't afford their own house.
Landlords choose to to rent out there properties, no?

listermint

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Basically all profit? Are you for real? Do you think Revenue let you keep all the rent? Do you think that there's no CGT owed when you go to sell the house?

Most ill informed statement I've seen here by a landlord basher in a while!!

On the flipside there is those that seem to think that they are paying for the cost of the house in full. That is simply not the case in reality.

Which ever way its painted the landlord is not paying for the full cost of the mortgage, some would be part paying it, some of it is entirely covered by rent it all depends on circumstance.

But its silly to paint a picture that they have a 100% mortage being covered by themselves. rent probably at minimum is covering 50% of the costs, You still end up with the asset whatever the timelines involved.

Again im not saying its a savvy investment its most certainly not in some cases. But its simply not black and white.

handlemaster

I dont see poster complaining to their local shop keeper on selling chocolate bars ... So why complain about landlords

lima

Now I don't really look at many other threads on boards, but I feel that Landlords are very, very moany.

I don't hear as much moaning from taxi drivers, shop owners, start-up owners etc.

If a landlord moans that much then maybe they should move on and not be a landlord. With all your complaining about tax, did you not do the math to see if it was a viable 'business'?

Also, I personally moaned about renting. But then I purchased an apartment so I done something about it

Gumbo

ComfortKid wrote: »

Landlords choose to to rent out there properties, no?

Not in all cases, in some cases its either rent out or lose it to the bank after putting your heart and soul into it for 15 years with the hope that maybe in a few years you can move back into it when personal circumstances improve.

jim-mcdee

lima wrote: »

Now I don't really look at many other threads on boards, but I feel that Landlords are very, very moany.

I don't hear as much moaning from taxi drivers, shop owners, start-up owners etc.

If a landlord moans that much then maybe they should move on and not be a landlord. With all your complaining about tax, did you not do the math to see if it was a viable 'business'?

Also, I personally moaned about renting. But then I purchased an apartment so I done something about it

Actually, if you look back at the thread, you will see that LL are not moaning, only responding to untruths that disgruntled renters are posting, who think LL pay no tax, is a gravy train etc. Are you just on here to compare moaners? If LL are the biggest, who is the second biggest moaner? And third? Seriously, would love to see your research :rolleyes:

lima

jim-mcdee wrote: »

Actually, if you look back at the thread, you will see that LL are not moaning, only responding to untruths that disgruntled renters are posting, who think LL pay no tax, is a gravy train etc. Are you just on here to compare moaners? If LL are the biggest, who is the second biggest moaner? And third? Seriously, would love to see your research :rolleyes:

I am not on here to compare moaners, nor have I conducted any research on the topic. I'm not sure how why you are asking me that but from the confused emoticon I'll just assume you got mixed up.

Outside of this thread, there is quite a lot of moaning from landlords. I think more than enough renters understand that landlords pay tax. The amount of moaning would lead me to speculate that many landlords are acting illegally and not paying enough tax. Many don't even bother to pay their mortgages. They are also constantly trying to reduce their costs by offering substandard accommodation and worn and torn furniture (whilst claiming wear and tear tax relief).

Korat

I've been a landlord and a tenant. There are shítty landlords and there are shítty tenants but at least as a tenant you can move somewhere else if you encounter a shítty landlord.

Electric Sheep

jim-mcdee wrote: »

The government wants to get rid of the one or two property landlord as its hard for them to get them to comply. IMO they are making a mistake. As more professional landlords enter, working on tighter margins, rents will only go one way. Up. And with large portfolio the renter will be left with less alternative but to pay. And while there will be more compliance, they are sure to find loopholes that mean the tax take stays the same or decreases.

I disagree. I think that the one or two property landlords are a huge part of the problem. They seem to think that the legal aspects don't apply to them - "sure I'm an accidental landlord - I shouldn't have to maintain my property or even learn my legal responsibilities, poor me, it's circumstances". This should not be a hobby if it is done right.

ted1

ComfortKid wrote: »

You think people who rent have a choice? They can't afford their own house.
Landlords choose to to rent out there properties, no?

no they don't, I know many people who bought an apartment. then met a partner who also had a home, they live in one and cant sell the other because the are in negative equity.

i also know other couples who bought a place and now have three kids so are renting a house while renting out their small apartment.

handlemaster

lima wrote: »

I am not on here to compare moaners, nor have I conducted any research on the topic. I'm not sure how why you are asking me that but from the confused emoticon I'll just assume you got mixed up.

Outside of this thread, there is quite a lot of moaning from landlords. I think more than enough renters understand that landlords pay tax. The amount of moaning would lead me to speculate that many landlords are acting illegally and not paying enough tax. Many don't even bother to pay their mortgages. They are also constantly trying to reduce their costs by offering substandard accommodation and worn and torn furniture (whilst claiming wear and tear tax relief).

What a load of rubbish. Your generalisations are been rolled up as fact when they are not.we see nothing but moaning from tenants on the radio/ tv, newspapers online etc.

Peterx

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I disagree. I think that the one or two property landlords are a huge part of the problem. They seem to think that the legal aspects don't apply to them - "sure I'm an accidental landlord - I shouldn't have to maintain my property or even learn my legal responsibilities, poor me, it's circumstances". This should not be a hobby if it is done right.

Whilst I agree that accidental landlords are one part of the problem the keyword here is accidental - it is a failure of national housing policy to have vulnerable people's housing provided by accident. (and in fairness the economic meltdown in 2008 which was unpredicted by most experts didn't help)

Accidental landlords are in the cohort of landlords with one rental property, in the main apartment owners who have outgrown their apartment and cannot afford to sell it. Many of them are renting somewhere bigger themselves. It's not even a hobby! If they could clear their mortgages with a sale of the apartment they would.

Electric Sheep

Peterx wrote: »

Whilst I agree that accidental landlords are one part of the problem the keyword here is accidental - it is a failure of national housing policy to have vulnerable people's housing provided by accident. (and in fairness the economic meltdown in 2008 which was unpredicted by most experts didn't help)

Accidental landlords are in the cohort of landlords with one rental property, in the main apartment owners who have outgrown their apartment and cannot afford to sell it. Many of them are renting somewhere bigger themselves. It's not even a hobby! If they could clear their mortgages with a sale of the apartment they would.

I am sure they would clear their mortgage if they could, but that does not absolve them of their responsibilities! There should be an exam that must be passed before an owner is allowed to rent a property, to ensure that they understand their rights and responsibilities

tuisginideach

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I am sure they would clear their mortgage if they could, but that does not absolve them of their responsibilities! There should be an exam that must be passed before an owner is allowed to rent a property, to ensure that they understand their rights and responsibilities

And an exam for the tenants too then - they all know their rights but many (pretend to) know nothing about their responsibilities.

Electric Sheep

tuisginideach wrote: »

And an exam for the tenants too then - they all know their rights but many (pretend to) know nothing about their responsibilities.

Indeed! Like many other things, this should be taught in schools. Financial responsibility seems to be ignored by the educational system.

jim-mcdee

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I am sure they would clear their mortgage if they could, but that does not absolve them of their responsibilities! There should be an exam that must be passed before an owner is allowed to rent a property, to ensure that they understand their rights and responsibilities

Not a bad idea. An online exam, with the renter also doing similar exam, and the cost of the exam (wont be free) went towards the PRTB payment, saving the LL a few quid.

tuisginideach

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Indeed! Like many other things, this should be taught in schools. Financial responsibility seems to be ignored by the educational system.

Not necessarily true - our school taught 'Rights and Responsibilities as a Citizen' as part of TY.

Electric Sheep

tuisginideach wrote: »

Not necessarily true - our school taught 'Rights and Responsibilities as a Citizen' as part of TY.

If it is so well taught why are there so many "accidental landlords" posting questions about things they should already be aware of on boards.ie?

Potatoeman

tuisginideach wrote: »

And an exam for the tenants too then - they all know their rights but many (pretend to) know nothing about their responsibilities.

Customers don't take exams, service providers do. When you decide to run a business there are standards to follow.

relax carry on

One thing I have noticed in all the years I've been renting in Ireland is those landlords with more than 1 property inevitably fail to invest in maintaining their properties to anything bar the bare minimum (paint it with the cheapest paint available and hope for the best). This is contrasted with the accidental landlords I've rented off who all maintained the property to a high standard with a view to either selling on or moving back in eventually.

My view of the amature investment landlord and their inability to understand that their investment must be properly maintained is further reinforced by several ex rental properties I've viewed with a mind to purchase lately. Some of the houses are in terrible condition. It's obvious that there's been no capital investment for years. The house have literally been rented within an inch of their commercial lives.

The house I'm renting now has several structural flaws which would have been spotted years ago by the owners but we're never addressed. The problems which would have been minor initially have moved into major in some cases. The owners are amature investment landlords with several properties.

borderlinemeath

Electric Sheep wrote: »

If it is so well taught why are there so many "accidental landlords" posting questions about things they should already be aware of on boards.ie?

And there's just as many tenants asking is it ok to withhold their final months rent to ensure they get their deposit back or tenants giving out about not getting their deposit back despite admitting to causing damage to the property. And plenty of landlords post up about tenants who destroy their property or who haven't received a penny in rent from squatting tenants.

Electric Sheep

borderlinemeath wrote: »

And there's just as many tenants asking is it ok to withhold their final months rent to ensure they get their deposit back or tenants giving out about not getting their deposit back despite admitting to causing damage to the property. And plenty of landlords post up about tenants who destroy their property or who haven't received a penny in rent from squatting tenants.

Yes, I agree - ignorance about financial responsibility is a big problem in Ireland, and it is an issue that needs to be addressed by the educational system.

lima

handlemaster wrote: »

What a load of rubbish. Your generalisations are been rolled up as fact when they are not.we see nothing but moaning from tenants on the radio/ tv, newspapers online etc.

I was speculating as mentioned

Tenants are moaning because they are being taken advantage of by landlords incrementally increasing the market rate to try to bail themselves out of financial investments that they got wrong. They know that tenants have little choice in the matter; collectively opportunistic landlords are a scourge in my opinion.

borderlinemeath

lima wrote: »

I was speculating as mentioned

Tenants are moaning because they are being taken advantage of by landlords incrementally increasing the market rate to try to bail themselves out of financial investments that they got wrong. They know that tenants have little choice in the matter; collectively landlords are a scourge in my opinion.

Were tenants moaning when they were negotiating lower rents when there was an abundance of property during the recession?

Again you're making sweeping statements, not every landlord made bad financial investments, there's plenty that have let out their homes because they may have had to move or emigrate to avail of employment opportunities, or have met their spouse and moved to a family home, or a break up has caused a former family home to be let. They are just examples of people I personally know who's circumstances have changed. You may consider them to be a "scourge" but yet you yourself have had to avail of the service they provide before you bought your own home. And not everybody has the luxury or the want to do that, Landlords are a vital part of society, like it or not.

lima

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Were tenants moaning when they were negotiating lower rents when there was an abundance of property during the recession?

Again you're making sweeping statements, not every landlord made bad financial investments, there's plenty that have let out their homes because they may have had to move or emigrate to avail of employment opportunities, or have met their spouse and moved to a family home, or a break up has caused a former family home to be let. They are just examples of people I personally know who's circumstances have changed. You may consider them to be a "scourge" but yet you yourself have had to avail of the service they provide before you bought your own home. And not everybody has the luxury or the want to do that, Landlords are a vital part of society, like it or not.

Edited my post, I meant to refer to opportunistic landlords who provide a low quality service whilst trying to squeeze as much as possible through incremental rental increases and non-replacement of worn and torn fittings.

Jen44

ComfortKid wrote: »

You think people who rent have a choice? They can't afford their own house.
Landlords choose to to rent out there properties, no?

If I had a choice I would have sold my house without a doubt however as its now in negative equity I had no choice but to hold onto it! The cost involved in renting a house are not cheap especially considering I never wanted to rent my house in the first incidence! So to answer your question no not all landlords choose to rent out there house it becomes a necessity

LilyShame

Jen44 wrote: »

If I had a choice I would have sold my house without a doubt however as its now in negative equity I had no choice but to hold onto it! The cost involved in renting a house are not cheap especially considering I never wanted to rent my house in the first incidence! So to answer your question no not all landlords choose to rent out there house it becomes a necessity

Totally agree with you there! It's not a choice....for thousands of first time buyers ..
All locked into the role of LL...
Compliant... Or not insny cases!...with the only prospect potentially a NE tradup! Blah!

beauf

lima wrote: »

...If a landlord moans that much then maybe they should move on and not be a landlord. ....Also, I personally moaned about renting. But then I purchased an apartment so I done something about it

lima wrote: »

..Tenants are moaning because they are being taken advantage of by landlords....tenants have little choice in the matter...

But you say they all have a choice. Renters should just buy a place. LL should just sell up. Simple.

soaking_wet

lima wrote: »

I was speculating as mentioned

Tenants are moaning because they are being taken advantage of by landlords incrementally increasing the market rate to try to bail themselves out of financial investments that they got wrong. They know that tenants have little choice in the matter; collectively opportunistic landlords are a scourge in my opinion.

tenants have zero responsibilities in this country , its near impossible to evict a tenant without significant cost and even you get them out , there is no way to compel the delinquent tenant to pay what they owe after they have gone

riclad

Theres some some bad tenants out there,
and bad landlords who avoid carrying out repairs .
Rents are going up in citys, because there,s a shortage of rental homes, flats .And not much new building going on.
That,s market forces at work.
Government increase,s in taxes on landlord,s are not encouraging new
people to enter the market .
Builders say there,s little profit to be made in building new rental housing.
Some investors bought land in the boom at very high price,s .

lima

soaking_wet wrote: »

tenants have zero responsibilities in this country , its near impossible to evict a tenant without significant cost and even you get them out , there is no way to compel the delinquent tenant to pay what they owe after they have gone

Yeah that's wrong too I agree

rubberdiddies

I really don't get the tenant/landlord hating.

If there were no private landlords there would be massive numbers of homeless. After all you can't trust a government to build housing.

Equally if there were no tenants, landlords (albeit the non accidental landlords) wouldn't be making profits.

I'm a landlord who kept rent at about 20% below market rates for the past couple of years but due to Alan Kelly's interfering I have now increased it (legally) to just slightly under market rate simply because I will not be able to increase it for two years. How ridiculous is that? How many thousands of people's rent will be increasing for this same reason?

What a silly silly error on the part of that minister (or the overpaid external consultants who were paid massively to come up with that plan)

tuisginideach

rubberdiddies wrote: »

I'm a landlord who kept rent at about 20% below market rates for the past couple of years but due to Alan Kelly's interfering I have now increased it (legally) to just slightly under market rate simply because I will not be able to increase it for two years. How ridiculous is that? How many thousands of people's rent will be increasing for this same reason?

Exactly right - good tenants are hard to get and it suited me to keep the tenant by not increasing the rent - in fact I decreased the rent a number of years ago when new neighbouring tenant was being started on a lower rent because of the recession. I never increased it because I have a great tenant. But Alan Kelly's short sightedness has huge knock-on effects and will make the situation worse, I feel, not better.

4ensic15

I have just done a search on DAft of houses for sale of more than 6 bedrooms in Dublin 6. It appears from that that there are many investment properties for sale. Each of these properties is presumable unoccupied to facilitate a sale. there is enough accommodation for several hundred people in these houses with about 94 bedrooms in all. In the middle of winter and in the depths of a homeless crisis this is ridiculous. All of these properties are landlords selling. The vast majority of them will be converted to private houses with only a fraction of the numbers accommodated. This would have been perfectly all right in the years when there was plenty of accommodation available as it would be a logical way of improving standards but at a time of rising rents the fact that so many landlords are exiting shows:-
1. How many disincentives there are for landlords to continue in business and for others to replace them.
2. How current official policies are making things worse for tenants.

handlemaster

4ensic15 wrote: »

I have just done a search on DAft of houses for sale of more than 6 bedrooms in Dublin 6. It appears from that that there are many investment properties for sale. Each of these properties is presumable unoccupied to facilitate a sale. there is enough accommodation for several hundred people in these houses with about 94 bedrooms in all. In the middle of winter and in the depths of a homeless crisis this is ridiculous. All of these properties are landlords selling. The vast majority of them will be converted to private houses with only a fraction of the numbers accommodated. This would have been perfectly all right in the years when there was plenty of accommodation available as it would be a logical way of improving standards but at a time of rising rents the fact that so many landlords are exiting shows:-
1. How many disincentives there are for landlords to continue in business and for others to replace them.
2. How current official policies are making things worse for tenants.

Dont tell the lefties or they will want to occupy them

Jolly Red Giant

handlemaster wrote: »

Dont tell the lefties or they will want to occupy them

Damned right too - homes for need, not for profit.

borderlinemeath

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Damned right too - homes for need, not for profit.

What's stopping the government buying them for social housing? The truth is they don't want to, it's far easier for them to sit back and let the private sector landlords deal with the housing crisis. Then just sit back and collect the tax generated.