Where are cops trained to do this?

Overheal

Cops at University of Alabama respond to noise complaint. A simple civil upset that many people on this forum would be familiar with (often begrudging the fact that Gardai can't/won't do much).

So obviously, this being the USA in 2015, coming over to ask a bunch of college students to turn down the noise, progressed into staged assault, forced entry, tazing, and baton-beating. Three officers are now on administrative leave.

When the first phone starts recording, the cop has already entered through the threshold of this apartment, the occupants are protesting the right of the officer to enter (who cannot, afaik, enter without permission for a simple noise complaint) who is holding someone's arm.

This goes on for the next 2 minutes. Basically, this cop knows he is in the wrong. If he was validated and justified, he would wait outside for backup who would re-start the interaction from there and cooler heads prevail. Instead, the cop loses his head and falsely accuses an occupant of grabbing *his* arm, grabs the occupant's shirt, and enters a 'stalemate', even acts the child with the ol' foot in the door gag. What's wrong here too, is that he places the guy under a false arrest for 'touching his arm' which is 1) empirically false and 2) the weakest reason to arrest someone I've ever heard of. Even in a close quarters situation like this: if you brush up against someone, that does not qualify as an assault to commit a battery. Someone please tell me if they can find news reports of someone in jail for "touching a cop on the arm/shoulder etc" (keep it clean AH). You'll more than likely come up with some greater offense. But bottom line, he wants to try and arrest the teen not because he feels threatened.

At 2 minutes into the video, the officer makes eye contact with something (someone, the backup officers) outside. He then immediately gives up the stalemate, and jumps into the house as if he has been dragged in by the occupant. This triggers the raid.

From additional angles provided by other apartments, we can see that some of them have been drug outside, thrown against the wall, tazed, and instead of being handcuffed at any point leading up to THAT, are ****ing beaten in the ribs with a nightstick.

When another woman who is still in the apartment asks why there are so many officers, one cop shouts, "Shut your ****ing mouth." When he walks away, someone in the apartment says, "I'm glad this is all on video." The officer responds, "I don't give a ****." Another officer tells the students still inside the apartment to go upstairs or they will be arrested too.

The first officer, without question, is completely wrong. That's not even the most troubling part - it's the fact that the reaction of the cops who just arrived on the scene is to do the tazing and the beating. These are cops, they are college students. The closest thing they have to a deadly weapon is a beer pong ball. I just can't put myself in the shoes of the 2nd/3rd officer who thought it made any sense to use the nightstick. Is it like a ****ing dog chasing a ****ing squirrel? A pitbull chasing a tennis ball? I don't get it. I just don't.

Apparently the students have decided to give this #FratLivesMatter.. which when you think about it, makes the same point #BlackLivesMatter does, but for college students (and therefore more of "my parents' money" vibe).

Nichard Dixon

Did the noise stop?

stoneill

Why didn't they just do as the police officer asked?

the groutch

When the first phone starts recording, the cop has already entered through the threshold of this apartment, the occupants are protesting the right of the officer to enter (who cannot, afaik, enter without permission for a simple noise complaint) who is holding someone's arm.

so a significant part of it is missing then?

The students didn't help themselves, the refusal to go with the policeman, the hysterical woman repeatedly screaming "why are you acting like this" (no wonder there was a noise complaint!), shouting "get out", trying to forcibly close the door on him (which seems to be the main trigger). But perhaps right that they be suspended while it is all investigated.

Sunnyisland

Police forces everywhere are becoming more militaristic in there behaviour and actions,also with people now knowing more about there rights, it's becoming like a new war on who is actuall breaking the law here, gone are the days when a quite word would do the trick.

Suppose having war on drugs and war on terrorism does not help the police mindset either.

joe swanson

Context is everything

realies

realies wrote: »

Police forces everywhere are becoming more militaristic in there behaviour and actions,also with people now knowing more about there rights, it's becoming like a new war on who is actuall breaking the law here, gone are the days when a quite word would do the trick.

Huh?

That's a bit of revisionism. If anything, gone are the days when every issue was dealt with by a beating. I'm not saying that was good, merely I don't remember the quiet word era. And, perhaps connected with the reduction in the use of force, every interaction seems to be greeted with hysteria, mobile phones and challenges to their authority. Which is fine too...but it's hard for a policeman to deal with a situation and face a cross examination from hysterical people and not reach a "yerra fek this" point.

Overheal

joe swanson wrote: »

Context is everything

If you've been following the Overheal show you know I love context, but this is a noise complaint, there is plenty of context, and you can't 'context' the fact that the cop jumped into the apartment, or that they tazed and beat someone; you have all that context right there. I can't imagine any pre-recording interaction that could justify what happened in the video, but invite others to indulge me.

the groutch wrote: »

so a significant part of it is missing then?

For sure. But what could be missing that allows the behavior seen in the video? The officer knows he's being recorded at this point, common sense to me is that he would verbally redress the events leading up to that point if he felt he was in the right (eg. "There are drugs here! etc") but, that is not the case, and no mention is made at any time of any illegal activity except for touching the officer's arm, and according to Tuscaloosa police officials, a noise complaint.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

Huh?

That's a bit of revisionism. If anything, gone are the days when every issue was dealt with by a beating. I'm not saying that was good, merely I don't remember the quiet word era. And, perhaps connected with the reduction in the use of force, every interaction seems to be greeted with hysteria, mobile phones and challenges to their authority. Which is fine too...but it's hard for a policeman to deal with a situation and face a cross examination from hysterical people and not reach a "yerra fek this" point.

It's hard for people to remain calm as bystanders when they see injustice - perceived injustice - right before their eyes and they know they live in a legal system that will protect that officer more than it will protect them. If officers were treated with the direct accountability we would all calmly let them do their job and go on their way. But, cops can literally get away with murder, and I live right up the road from one such spot. Hell I ate there today, actually. Bet your ass I'll be a lot less trusting of my local police.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

It's hard for people to remain calm as bystanders when they see injustice - perceived injustice - right before their eyes and they know they live in a legal system that will protect that officer more than it will protect them.

The injustice of being asked to step outside an apartment?

It's not exactly Birmingham 6 territory.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

The injustice of being asked to step outside an apartment?

It's not exactly Birmingham 6 territory.

OK so they are asked to step outside and do not wish to, they are not being detained or arrested, they have the universal human right to security of person, and the constitutional "right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" ("no Warrants shall [be issued], but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized".

As already stated, a noise ordnance is a civil offense that does not carry with it the power of arrest. The cop may, at best, write the gentleman a citation and assign a fine. No probable cause for any higher crime was declared in the video that I saw (drug use, underage drinking, etc) but you can now look forward to multiple sworn testimonies of the students inside, compared to the one cop's.

bucketybuck

I wonder what the neighbours thought of it all, probably cheered as the arsehole frat were finally made to shut the **** up.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Deleted User wrote: »

The injustice of being asked to step outside an apartment?

It's not exactly Birmingham 6 territory.

The second he was beyond the apartment door threshold he was tasered and beaten severely with a baton.

That surely invalidates your entire point. He was absolute right to not want to step outside.

Overheal

bucketybuck wrote: »

I wonder what the neighbours thought of it all, probably cheered as the arsehole frat were finally made to shut the **** up.

... they videotaped it.... bet you even the person calling the complaint in didn't expect his neighbor to be beaten and tazed for playing music too loudly.

bucketybuck

Overheal wrote: »

... they videotaped it....

They? Somebody videotaped it. I doubt that person speaks for all the neighbours.

Overheal

bucketybuck wrote: »

They? Somebody videotaped it. I doubt that person speaks for all the neighbours.

Do you hear cheering? Your attempt to gain thanks on your first reply fall a little flat given the baseless nature of your comment.

bucketybuck

Overheal wrote: »

Do you hear cheering? Your attempt to gain thanks on your first reply fall a little flat given the baseless nature of your comment.

Attempt to gain thanks? I think you are projecting there, some people over the age of five don't care about "thanks".

Face it, nobody cares about a bunch of tossers annoying the whole neighbourhood with loud parties, if the guards would take the same approach over here I would certainly give them thanks.

NoCrackHaving

You have to remember that in swathes of the USA police forces are incredibly poorly trained. This is even more of an issue with rural and small town departments. They genuinely don't know how to deal with a situation without using force, it doesn't even occur to them.

Overheal

bucketybuck wrote: »

Face it, nobody cares about a bunch of tossers annoying the whole neighbourhood with loud parties, if the guards would take the same approach over here I would certainly give them thanks.

Come to America then if you like the risk of getting spontaneously tazed for listening to Dream Weaver too loudly in your own apartment. We have less taxes and more flavors of pop-tart.

Stranger Danger

Deleted User wrote: »

the hysterical woman repeatedly screaming "why are you acting like this"

I wonder is it the same woman who travels to all these type of incidents.

bucketybuck

Overheal wrote: »

Come to America then if you like the risk of getting spontaneously tazed for listening to Dream Weaver too loudly in your own apartment. We have less taxes and more flavors of pop-tart.

I have respect for other people so I wouldn't be listening to music too loud in my apartment.

inc21

Moral of the story: don't be a cnut and you won't get arrested.

Overheal

bucketybuck wrote: »

I have respect for other people so I wouldn't be listening to music too loud in my apartment.

Maybe you'd prefer to be the one kicking in doors and nightsticking people then?

Junkyard Tom

stoneill wrote: »

Why didn't they just do as the police officer asked?

The seed of tyranny. 'Just do as you're told'. Don't ask questions. Don't try to exercise your rights.

bucketybuck

Overheal wrote: »

Maybe you'd prefer to be the one kicking in doors and nightsticking people then?

Where did I say that? More projecting on your part I suspect.

Overheal

Be as obtuse as you want. I sincerely hope it never happens to you or someone you know; leaving it at that.

stoneill wrote: »

Why didn't they just do as the police officer asked?

Because an arrest for a noise complaint is an overreach. The cop was the first to the scene. He made calls/actions. He was fairly challenged on them. He should have waited for backup to arrive to corroborate his position, by another officer looking at the situation with fresh eyes. He needs a 2nd officer to make the arrest anyway! Happens a lot at border stops for instance, the front-line guys check the vehicles, as soon as someone "asserts their rights, asks if they're being detained etc" the answer is not "beat the window in" it's "call the supervisor" who then arrives on the scene to address the escalation calmly.

Arsemageddon

bucketybuck wrote: »

Face it, nobody cares about a bunch of tossers annoying the whole neighbourhood with loud parties, if the guards would take the same approach over here I would certainly give them thanks.

Thankfully the Gardaí don't go around battering people just to give holier than thou internet warriors something to fap to.

Maguined

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The seed of tyranny. 'Just do as you're told'. Don't ask questions. Don't try to exercise your rights.

Indeed there is nothing more tyrannical in this world than asking to turn down your music.

NachoBusiness

Power will always be abused by some people. Seen the Guards do much worse when I was growing up. Much worse. Stuff that should have seen them do time and a lot of it. Other Guards were more than aware and stood by as that is the nature of cop stations. Most have their focus on their careers and even when they don't approve of what their colleagues do, they will keep schtum so as not to cause waves which could effect their progressing.

The reason that cop wanted to pull the guy outside was because outside he had more control over him and was less restricted in what he could and could not ask him to do. Piece of crap with a badge and I don't believe that anything significant occurred before the footage began that remotely warranted what occurred. If the student assaulted him, then he would have said so and being very specific about it but he wasn't at all and everything the cop did suggested that he hadn't been assaulted. He clearly wished he had been though, as that would have justified what he went on to do.

Samaris

Who do (should, maybe!) you expect more common sense and ability to deal with people in a sane and reasonable manner from - the police or a bunch of college kids? College kids can be brats, yes, but it's absolutely ridiculous to escalate a "have you no homes to go to" situation to a "call an ambulance" scenario.

Junkyard Tom

Maguined wrote: »

Indeed there is nothing more tyrannical in this world than asking to turn down your music.

Read the OP properly.

When the first phone starts recording, the cop has already entered through the threshold of this apartment, the occupants are protesting the right of the officer to enter

Do you know if they refused to turn down the music or not?

No. Jog on.

kneemos

Were they hooping and a hollerin.Can't be having that.

If there was high fives I'd go in all guns blazing.

steddyeddy

inc21 wrote: »

Moral of the story: don't be a cnut and you won't get arrested.

A similar moral applies to some parts of Dublin. Don't bring attention on yourself and you won't get mugged. I.e victim blaming.

Maguined

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Read the OP properly.



Do you know if they refused to turn down the music or not?

No. Jog on.

This is not a court of law where only proven facts are allowed be discuseed. I think it is a very reasonable thing to assume if the frat had turned down the music the cop would of left and that would of been the end of it.

conorhal

bucketybuck wrote: »

I wonder what the neighbours thought of it all, probably cheered as the arsehole frat were finally made to shut the **** up.

Yeah, I used thave a bunch of student neighbours that went out 'Thursday student night drinking' every week and then threw an after-party once the clubs closed in their appartment, which typically went on from about 1am till 6am. My sporadic pleas that they at least keep the party indoors and off the balcony where they would roar and hollar half the night were typically ignored with a look of 'shut up you working square;.
If the Guards had ever shown up and pumped 10,000 volts into a couple of those bastards it would have made my year!

Samaris

Maguined wrote: »

This is not a court of law where only proven facts are allowed be discuseed. I think it is a very reasonable thing to assume if the frat had turned down the music the cop would of left and that would of been the end of it.

There are also ways and means to go about the situation even if they refuse without raising hell.

Maguined

Samaris wrote: »

There are also ways and means to go about the situation even if they refuse without raising hell.

I fully believe the cops could of handled the situation better but so could the frat, if the cop told them there was a noise complaint and they turned down the music I believe the situation would of been resolved.

Junkyard Tom

Maguined wrote: »

This is not a court of law where only proven facts are allowed be discuseed. I think it is a very reasonable thing to assume if the frat had turned down the music the cop would of left and that would of been the end of it.

Or maybe the cop is a shape-shifting ogre who rode up there on a Unicorn and had a team of elves infiltrate the apartment to cause trouble?

We're working with what we can see recorded. Even if they had refused to turn down the music would it justify what appears to be home invasion and police brutality? There are surely procedures in place that inhabit the middle ground between doing nothing and the police forcing their way into your home and essentially kidnapping you.

conorhal

Samaris wrote: »

There are also ways and means to go about the situation even if they refuse without raising hell.

None quite so satisfying to the sleep deprived though! :pac:

bucketybuck

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

if they had refused to turn down the music would it justify what appears to be home invasion and police brutality?

Yes it would Kent.

NachoBusiness

Maguined wrote: »

I fully believe the cops could of handled the situation better but so could the frat, if the cop told them there was a noise complaint and they turned down the music I believe the situation would of been resolved.

And if Rodney King had just pulled over..

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

stoneill wrote: »

Why didn't they just do as the police officer asked?

This mentality is just rediculous.

Old Mc Donald had a farm,
E-I-E-I-O
And on that farm he had a sheep,
E-I-E-I-O
With a baa baa here
And a baa baa there
Here a baa, there a baa
Everywhere a baa baa
Old MacDonald had a farm
E-I-E-I-O

Junkyard Tom

bucketybuck wrote: »

Yes it would Kent.

Okay let's pretend this fascist fantasy-fap-land exists. If the student said 'My home was being invaded and I felt my life was at risk and that's why I opened fire with my legally held M60 '.

Now, see how that works? What next? The police radio for an air-strike?

Maguined

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Or maybe the cop is a shape-shifting ogre who rode up there on a Unicorn and had a team of elves infiltrate the apartment to cause trouble?

We're working with what we can see recorded. Even if they had refused to turn down the music would it justify what appears to be home invasion and police brutality? There are surely procedures in place that inhabit the middle ground between doing nothing and the police forcing their way into your home and essentially kidnapping you.

I think you missed the key word of my point in that being "reasonable". If you feel ogres and unicorns are as reasonable as suggesting if you obey a cop they tend to leave you alone I think there is very little we can agree on.

The video does not show the start of the incident so we are missing context. I am sure there are such procedures and they are to try and reason with the individuals and convince them to obey the law and the police instructions. This does not seem to have been achieved.

What do you suggest a cop does when responding to a valid noise complaint and the offendor refuses to turn the music down? Walk away and do nothing?

NachoBusiness wrote: »

And if Rodney King had just pulled over..

In the words of Chris Rock "if the cops have to chase you down they are going to bring a can of whoop ass". Some cops will go over the line just as there are bad apples in every job in the world. Once you accept that fact surely the smartest thing to do is never give them a reason to do so?

asherbassad

stoneill wrote: »

Why didn't they just do as the police officer asked?

You'll never in your life question the abuse of power will you?
You'll always search for an excuse to acquiesce.

Samaris

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Okay let's pretend this fascist fantasy-fap-land exists. If the student said 'My home was being invaded and I felt my life was at risk and that's why I opened fire with my legally held M60 '.

Now, see how that works? What next? The police radio for an air-strike?

To be fair, if that happened, the student wouldn't get a chance to say anything afterwards, because the half the party that didn't run out screaming would have been shot by the police.

What WOULD happen in that case is that the cop would dive for cover and then radio for all the backup in the area, who would come and would shoot the kid and everyone would say "phew, avoided a mass shooting".

bucketybuck

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Okay let's pretend this fascist fantasy-fap-land exists. If the student said 'My home was being invaded and I felt my life was at risk and that's why I opened fire with my legally held M60 '.

Now, see how that works? What next? The police radio for an air-strike?

What are you even talking about at this stage? You seem angry, did somebody have a party and keep you awake last night?

Maguined

asherbassad wrote: »

You'll never in your life question the abuse of power will you?
You'll always search for an excuse to acquiesce.

As it was being recorded what prevented the frat from obeying the cops orders then submitting the video evidence as proof of the abuse of power?

You can acquiesce to the police at the time and lodge your abuse of power complaint after which sounds perfectly reasonable does it not?

Liam O

conorhal wrote: »

Yeah, I used thave a bunch of student neighbours that went out 'Thursday student night drinking' every week and then threw an after-party once the clubs closed in their appartment, which typically went on from about 1am till 6am. My sporadic pleas that they at least keep the party indoors and off the balcony where they would roar and hollar half the night were typically ignored with a look of 'shut up you working square;.
If the Guards had ever shown up and pumped 10,000 volts into a couple of those bastards it would have made my year!

Anyone silly enough to live beside a frat house and not know it would be loud deserves 10,000 volts themselves. The lads were not going to cause any violent problems to anyone outside the house and were dragged out and beaten up. Can you tell me how that is fair? Other than ignoring these points because you had a few bad experiences with OFF CAMPUS Irish students.

Liam O

Maguined wrote: »

I think you missed the key word of my point in that being "reasonable". If you feel ogres and unicorns are as reasonable as suggesting if you obey a cop they tend to leave you alone I think there is very little we can agree on.

The video does not show the start of the incident so we are missing context. I am sure there are such procedures and they are to try and reason with the individuals and convince them to obey the law and the police instructions. This does not seem to have been achieved.

What do you suggest a cop does when responding to a valid noise complaint and the offendor refuses to turn the music down? Walk away and do nothing?



In the words of Chris Rock "if the cops have to chase you down they are going to bring a can of whoop ass". Some cops will go over the line just as there are bad apples in every job in the world. Once you accept that fact surely the smartest thing to do is never give them a reason to do so?

What was the reasoning here then? Music played too loudly in a college frat house? Give me a break.