Is it possible to land a junior dev or QA job in Ireland by without a degree?

ColcloughP

So according to this American guy called Joshua Kemp, he gave up his job as a blacksmith and instead spent 9 months learning Ruby on Rails. After this time, and some networking etc., he managed to land a decent enough job as a junior dev.

Here's the story and the plan in a little more detail
joshuakemp.blogspot.ie/2013/11/how-blacksmith-learned-to-code-and-9.html

Anyway, can anyone who works in IT tell me whether this is plausible. I've been unemployed for a while now and I'd learn anything if it meant a job at the end of the road, but I don't want to start down this difficult road if there's no hope of a job at the end. As such I have a few questions.

Is it all just bull**** made to sell books?
Did he just get very lucky?
Is it just something that could work in the US but not Ireland?
Or can someone do this in 9 months and get a decent enough entry-level job?

Thanks

Edit: Sorry the link isn't hyperlinked. It says I can't post links since I'm a new user, even though my account is almost 8 years old.

La Fenetre

Believe it or not, a good non degree entry route in Ireland in recent years, is via FAS / Solas.

In recent years they started doing employer directed courses in software development etc. if you have the aptitude for it. Talk to the local FAS / Solas office and see if they have any courses that have an input from local large IT employers and that are recruiting from them.

After that I'd look about getting an Internship with a large genuine company, doing anything in IT, from IT support to QA to development, don't be fussy, and if they like your efforts, you've a very good chance of being kept on.

If you like IT, any of those disciplines are great to start out in, and you can take it from there depending on you and your employers interests. Don't think it must be software development you get into, too many people tend to focus on this and miss all the other just as well paid and fulfilling careers in IT.

irishgrover

ColcloughP wrote: »

So according to this American guy called Joshua Kemp, he gave up his job as a blacksmith and instead spent 9 months learning Ruby on Rails. After this time, and some networking etc., he managed to land a decent enough job as a junior dev.

Here's the story and the plan in a little more detail
joshuakemp.blogspot.ie/2013/11/how-blacksmith-learned-to-code-and-9.html

Anyway, can anyone who works in IT tell me whether this is plausible. I've been unemployed for a while now and I'd learn anything if it meant a job at the end of the road, but I don't want to start down this difficult road if there's no hope of a job at the end. As such I have a few questions.

Is it all just bull**** made to sell books?
Did he just get very lucky?
Is it just something that could work in the US but not Ireland?
Or can someone do this in 9 months and get a decent enough entry-level job....

Yes, its possible. Many testers who work in it Dept's in non IT companies, most notably financial services companies, do not have IT related degrees. Where are you located op?

ColcloughP

irishgrover wrote: »

Yes, its possible. Many testers who work in it Dept's in non IT companies, most notably financial services companies, do not have IT related degrees. Where are you located op?

I'm in Galway now, but I have family I can stay with in Dublin if I need to get set up over there.

Stheno

ColcloughP wrote: »

I'm in Galway now, but I have family I can stay with in Dublin if I need to get set up over there.

The singular most important thing you need to consider is if you think you would like to work in IT.

The amount of people I've known who start in IT because they think it's a career paved with riches who crack up eventually is unreal.

ColcloughP

Stheno wrote: »

The singular most important thing you need to consider is if you think you would like to work in IT.

The amount of people I've known who start in IT because they think it's a career paved with riches who crack up eventually is unreal.

To be honest, it's simply a case of I wouldn't mind working in IT. I'm having a lot of difficulty getting a job with my current skills, so I'll take anything now and what little experience I have had with coding has been very enjoyable.

Besides, if I crack up in a few years time, I'll still have other options with my other skills.

La Fenetre

Stheno wrote: »

The singular most important thing you need to consider is if you think you would like to work in IT.

The amount of people I've known who start in IT because they think it's a career paved with riches who crack up eventually is unreal.

Exactly.

The first test is can you happily spend 8 hours a day at your desk at home 5 days a week working on very mundane coding, spreadsheets, databases etc. and still enjoy learning all about the fine details and intricacies of it all, intricacies that most people would find utterly dull, whereas you'd still happily do it 12 hours every day 7 days a week, for free, if you could get away with it. Then really think about would you like to do that at that desk, all day, every day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks of the year, for at least 5-10 years and perhaps 40-50 years of your life.

If the answer is still yes, IT is for you.

If not save yourself a lot of time and future heartache and bail now.

Stheno

La Fenetre wrote: »

Exactly.

The first test is can you happily spend 8 hours a day at your desk at home 5 days a week working on very mundane coding, spreadsheets, databases etc. and still enjoy learning all about the fine details and intricacies of it all, intricacies that most people would find utterly dull, whereas you'd still happily do it 12 hours every day 7 days a week, for free, if you could get away with it. Then really think about would you like to do that at that desk, all day, every day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks of the year, for at least 5-10 years and perhaps 40-50 years of your life.

Add in imagine doing it when someone is screaming at you as the code is causing issues and the company are losing money due to it, or working long hours due to project deadlines, and still enjoying it

Musicman2000

You don't need a degree to work in IT . Plenty of industry certs your can do and also as mentioned above the Solas course in coding. I completed a degree myself in IT, which was a shambles . Once you can your foot in the door some where and get experience behind you . You will have no problem getting full time work especially around Dublin, can be a bit tougher around other parts of the country.

bcklschaps

"Is it possible to land a junior dev or QA job in Ireland by without a degree?"

>>

Work in IT myself for last 20 Years for various American Multi-Nationals (including recruiting junior Staff, so might be fairly well placed to answer your question)

In short, the answer to your question is No.

Software Development and Testing/QA roles are typically quite specialized and there are simply too many well qualified candidates going for each job vacancy for any employer to bother taking a risk on a 'wild card' who has neither a proper IT degree or any relevant experience to show that he is capable of fulfilling the role.

The minimum requirement for every proper IT job is an IT degree and getting more common now, the minimum requirement is a IT Masters.

The only way you might be able to get some kind of a job in IT (and I use that term very loosely) is to maybe get a gig in some 'Ma & Pa' small Irish Company maybe doing a bit of Data Entry type stuff and a bit of Computer trouble-shooting (when the ancient equipment they have breaks down)

A word of warning, small Irish companies don't tend to pay very well... you will be earning no more than minimum wage because they can replace you with a JobBridge pleb, at the stroke of a pen.

Musicman2000

bcklschaps wrote: »

"Is it possible to land a junior dev or QA job in Ireland by without a degree?"

>>

Work in IT myself for last 20 Years for various American Multi-Nationals (including recruiting junior Staff, so might be fairly well placed to answer your question)

In short, the answer to your question is No.

Software Development and Testing/QA roles are typically quite specialized and there are simply too many well qualified candidates going for each job vacancy for any employer to bother taking a risk on a 'wild card' who has neither a proper IT degree or any relevant experience to show that he is capable of fulfilling the role.

The minimum requirement for every proper IT job is an IT degree and getting more common now, the minimum requirement is a IT Masters.

The only way you might be able to get some kind of a job in IT (and I use that term very loosely) is to maybe get a gig in some 'Ma & Pa' small Irish Company maybe doing a bit of Data Entry type stuff and a bit of Computer trouble-shooting (when the ancient equipment they have breaks down)

A word of warning, small Irish companies don't tend to pay very well... you will be earning no more than minimum wage because they can replace you with a JobBridge pleb, at the stroke of a pen.

Sorry but some of your statements are way off the mark. Every IT job does not require a degree. Plenty of companies will take Industry qualifications with experience over IT Degrees. Plenty of Irish companies pay good money when it comes to IT. A lot of graduates have no other choice to take Job bridge Schemes to gain experience and I don't think they would like to be classed as plebs.

bcklschaps

Musicman2000 wrote: »

Sorry but some of your statements are way off the mark. Every IT job does not require a degree. Plenty of companies will take Industry qualifications with experience over IT Degrees. Plenty of Irish companies pay good money when it comes to IT. A lot of graduates have no other choice to take Job bridge Schemes to gain experience and I don't think they would like to be classed as plebs.

In your rush to contradict me, you have not read my update properly.

Software Developer, Software Tester/QA ... WILL require a minimum of a IT degree and maybe even a MasterS Degree, before you will even get an interview.

You may be able to get some class of IT job (As in working on a Compouther machine) without an IT degree, but it will be of the JobBridge/Plebian/minimum wage variety.

PS. I know a few people on JobBridge schemes (With IT Degree's, I might add) and "pleb" is exactly the word they use to describe the roles they are forced to work in.

percy212

Wrong. If you have skills you will get a job. Start learning via coursera or Fas, and build up a portfolio on GitHub. Get an internship under your belt, and you are all set. I have a masters in comp.sci and it is completely unnecessary for a dev job. Big fat waste of time. Don't listen to the naysayers on this thread. If you are good employers will scramble to hire you.

littlevillage

If the OP is looking at Graduate positions in Ireland (which is the entry level IT Computer programming role) ... he/she will need be a Graduate.

percy212

littlevillage wrote: »

If the OP is looking at Graduate positions in Ireland (which is the entry level IT Computer programming role) ... he/she will need be a Graduate.

The OP doesn't need to follow the spoon fed grad route into IT. A good developer will be never be out of work, regardless of their formal education. If you can do the job, you get the job. Simple as that.

cronos

I've worked with some people who had some success finding a role after completing this 1 year course http://www.webelevate.ie/

Eugene Norman

bcklschaps wrote: »

In your rush to contradict me, you have not read my update properly.

Software Developer, Software Tester/QA ... WILL require a minimum of a IT degree and maybe even a MasterS Degree, before you will even get an interview.

You may be able to get some class of IT job (As in working on a Compouther machine) without an IT degree, but it will be of the JobBridge/Plebian/minimum wage variety.

PS. I know a few people on JobBridge schemes (With IT Degree's, I might add) and "pleb" is exactly the word they use to describe the roles they are forced to work in.

This is utter rubbish, certainly for test roles and probably dev roles. I've worked with testers and project managers (and more rarely devs) in large American companies with no degrees.

Stheno

Eugene Norman wrote: »

This is utter rubbish, certainly for test roles and probably dev roles. I've worked with testers and project managers (and more rarely devs) in large American companies with no degrees.

I'd be a programme manager level now and have no degree

bcklschaps

Lot of posters contradicting me ... but I'll say this once again.

The only place you will get a job in an IT company without a Degree ... is in the canteen.

Anybody saying anything else is misguiding the OP.

The OP is in Galway .. this is a Job Advert for a junior Role as a Software developer in Galway... its there is black and white.

"Education : Third Level Degree "

https://www.cpl.ie/Job/JO-1404-284695_220?title=Software-Developer

beauf

bcklschaps wrote: »

Lot of posters contradicting me ... but I'll say this once again.

The only place you will get a job in an IT company without a Degree ... is in the canteen.

Anybody saying anything else is misguiding the OP.

The OP is in Galway .. this is a Job Advert for a junior Role as a Software developer in Galway... its there is black and white.

"Education : Third Level Degree "

https://www.cpl.ie/Job/JO-1404-284695_220?title=Software-Developer

Well the OP is looking for entry level job in IT.

The Job you posted is not entry level. Its a developer job requiring a degree AND 2~4yrs experience. The latter maybe waived if you have high academic achievement. If you read between the lines it may not be a pure development role either. Its missing some details you'd expect, and the description suggests the same.

Its not an entry level job. Pointless to compare them.

beauf

ColcloughP wrote: »

...Is it all just bull**** made to sell books? He is also leveraging it to sell books yes.
Did he just get very lucky? he worked his butt off and made his own luck. Few will put the same effort in.
Is it just something that could work in the US but not Ireland? Working hard isn't exclusive to the US
Or can someone do this in 9 months and get a decent enough entry-level job?...Depends

Depends because what you mean by entry level and decent.


Who are you competing with to get the job? Does everyone else have a degree? Also if a degree is a barrier to get to interview. Agencies and recruiters and even HR often don't have a clue about IT and just use a degree as a filter. Then some jobs require a degree to start with.

A lot of people I know in IT don't have an IT degree. But then a lot of them do. Many have decided to get IT degrees after working in the industry for years. Its increasing a necessity for many roles.

But then many roles do not require a degree. But you have to have certs, or some training, and lots of experience, or projects done to demonstrate your skillset.

In IT you should probably more focused on your skillset and how can you demonstrate it, than anything else. That is actually what Joshua did. Also can you pass a technical test for the role? Unless you've actually gone and done stuff you won't be able to.

irishgrover

like most things, there is no black and white answer here...
is it easier to get a job technical job in IT with a degree in IT? - of course it is (all other things being equal)
Is it possible to get an entry level position job as a junior Dev or QA job without a primary degree in IT - of course is it, but it is harder..

Your problem is
a.) How do you get your head in the door, and past HR screening (..."must have minimum of degree..")
b.) if you do manage to get in front of a hiring manager how to you convince him/her that you are worth the investment..........why should I hire you for the junior position over someone who already has proven experience through education or whatever..

The other thing that you need to keep in mind is that hiring attitudes are very different in the US then they are in Ireland. In the states potential is worth a lot more than experience. if you look at an american entrepreneurial company of course they will solicit graduates from ivy leave schools, but they also know that potential has value. Look at Michael Dell, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Ellison etc etc, none of whom were graduates. At least a significant minority of the most influential people I worked closely with in IT in the states did not come from an IT educational background, but they had vision and drive, and leaned their sh!t well, and always kept learning.
In Ireland we don't do that very well, we value education more than we value potential. A classic example of that being that twat Paddy Cosgrove and his web summit company. He thinks that wearing flip flops and cargo pants, ala mountain view or Cupertino in the mid 90's, makes him a visionary entrepreneur. At the same time he says that he only employs people from UCD, UCC, NUIG, DCU, UL or NUI Maynooth with a 1:1 degree or if from TCD you only need a 2:1 (guess from where and with what Paddy graduated). The very people that he lusts over to be speakers @ web summit, are by his narrow and stupid standards, not qualified enough to work for him....

So, back to the OP's question. Is it possible? Yes. Will it be easy? No.

An anecdote: A guy got laid off from a non IT job. Decided he wanted to go into IT. Did research and figured out that QA/Test would give him a best entry chance than development. decided to spend a significant amount of money (redundancy) and hired a very senior consultant/trainer in software testing, for one to one sessions to "make him an employable tester". He studied, did exams and got certifications (ISTQB foundation and intermediate) and then did a jobsbridge stint in testing. He somehow got my contact details, and would periodically email me (unsolicited) providing updates. (guess he was doing this to more than me). I quietly started making inquires about how he was getting on (it's a small industry) and when his jobsbridge was over I hired him. I did not hire him for his education or experience, I hired him for his potential. I hired him because he had a balls to make a life changing decision, had the intelligence to do the research, figure out how to do it, and then he just went and did it. To me, that speaks volumes.

percy212

OP. Grover above nailed it. Of course you CAN get a job in IT. You just need to be creative about getting in the door. Try joining some IT meetup groups. If someone likes the cut of your jib you will get hired. That is a fact.

Magico Gonzalez

It's possible, if you want be a developer make sure you actually are a developer, i.e. are you contributing to bug fixing shared code online? Are you contributing code to online forums? I'd rather hire someone who could demonstrate that they are committed and actually contributing than someone who is academically gifted.

TartanKane

I believe it is possible, but the challenge is getting your leg in the door.

I found myself unemployed a few years ago and retrained myself as a developer using the internet. There are amazing resources available online.

I had a technical degree from 20 years earlier and some related experience but I was worried that I was too old to become a developer.

Some recommendations are:

* Find a person or two who has a lot of experience and ask them for general guidance.

* Focus on learning a language or skills that you know employers want.

* Get relevant professional certification (this is fairly easy to do and doesn't require taking any formal course but it will cost some money)

* Talk to people, either directly or through forums. There's a lot of technical people around Irish cities these days and a lot of them are eager to help.

You will need to work hard and be enthusiastic.

Best of luck with it.

JCTO

bcklschaps wrote: »

Lot of posters contradicting me ... but I'll say this once again.

The only place you will get a job in an IT company without a Degree ... is in the canteen.

Anybody saying anything else is misguiding the OP.

The OP is in Galway .. this is a Job Advert for a junior Role as a Software developer in Galway... its there is black and white.

"Education : Third Level Degree "

https://www.cpl.ie/Job/JO-1404-284695_220?title=Software-Developer

I have no degree but I am A+ certified and did a 2 year course on Networking and failed the CCNA and recently got a job in the IT sector working with Networks. It is possible to get a job in IT without a degree. I have done it, my brother has done it as has my bro in law.

Eire Go Brach

Got made redundant last year. Decided to change my career going down the certificate route. Doing an MCSA at the moment.

What I have seen in the last year is quite positive towards certificates in small to mid size companies. The large companies probably won't look at you without a degree. There is a consensus that seems to be forming. If you want to do programming. Go to college. You want do hardware/ System Admin do certificates. I have been told this in an interview. Most degrees are now very heavy with programming.

Although not impossible but I think you would be better of avoiding programming if your not going to college. That being said. Get the right course and lucky with your work experience. You could get a job. But I think it is a harder option.

robindch

ColcloughP wrote: »

he gave up his job as a blacksmith and instead spent 9 months learning Ruby on Rails. After this time, and some networking etc., he managed to land a decent enough job as a junior dev. [...] Anyway, can anyone who works in IT tell me whether this is plausible.

I run an Irish software company here in Dublin with around 25 people and, being brutally honest, a qualification, at least in software, counts for very little, if anything, during a selection process for a software engineer or QA position - for the simple reason that we've found that most candidates who arrive with software degrees have reduced levels of interest and/or ability in software.

Things which do count include - a hobby interest in software, a wide range of interests outside of software, ability to deal with abundant detail, ability to speak multiple languages, not being afraid to admit mistakes or lack of knowledge, CV's looking good and not containing grammatical or spelling errors, being able to demonstrate some completed project and being able to talk about it with interest and in detail, humor.

Things which count against include - cliches in CV's (don't ever include the bullsh*t phrase "team player"), lying on the CV, lying during an interview, not demonstrating any interest in the job or the company, not asking questions during the interview.

Over the last few years, we've taken in people with unrelated main qualifications and secondary qualifications in software - one recent hire was originally a chef - and seen them grow to excellent, careful and valued staff members. And we've taken in people with relatively advanced qualifications and/or experience who haven't.

As for Kemp, well, if a guy showed up at my door saying he's a blacksmith and produces some neat things he's made but wants to do software? He'd probably get an interview straight off just for chutzpah; if that went well, we'd probably find something intern-level to do - investigate this, figure out that, fix something else, and leave him off and see how that pans out. A smart guy will figure it out and we're looking for smart people.

That's my experience of hiring people. The larger companies will use HR people whose primary interest appears to be box-ticking, so qualifications count for more, and experience and interest count for less. It's the other way around in smaller companies.

Musicman2000

robindch wrote: »

I run an Irish software company here in Dublin with around 25 people and, being brutally honest, a qualification, at least in software, counts for very little, if anything, during a selection process for a software engineer or QA position - for the simple reason that we've found that most candidates who arrive with software degrees have reduced levels of interest and/or ability in software.

Things which do count include - a hobby interest in software, a wide range of interests outside of software, ability to deal with abundant detail, ability to speak multiple languages, not being afraid to admit mistakes or lack of knowledge, CV's looking good and not containing grammatical or spelling errors, being able to demonstrate some completed project and being able to talk about it with interest and in detail, humor.

Things which count against include - cliches in CV's (don't ever include the bullsh*t phrase "team player"), lying on the CV, lying during an interview, not demonstrating any interest in the job or the company, not asking questions during the interview.

Over the last few years, we've taken in people with unrelated main qualifications and secondary qualifications in software - one recent hire was originally a chef - and seen them grow to excellent, careful and valued staff members. And we've taken in people with relatively advanced qualifications and/or experience who haven't.

As for Kemp, well, if a guy showed up at my door saying he's a blacksmith and produces some neat things he's made but wants to do software? He'd probably get an interview straight off just for chutzpah; if that went well, we'd probably find something intern-level to do - investigate this, figure out that, fix something else, and leave him off and see how that pans out. A smart guy will figure it out and we're looking for smart people.

That's my experience of hiring people. The larger companies will use HR people whose primary interest appears to be box-ticking, so qualifications count for more, and experience and interest count for less. It's the other way around in smaller companies.

Excellent Advice.