Tote Ireland

hawkwind23

After reading a post by the Bookmaker Sean Graham on the lack of balance regarding HRI and Tote Ireland and their contribution to local tracks i got thinking of how poor Tote Ireland is now to the racegoers.

I used to bet with the tote , general rule of thumb was that anything priced 8/1+ would pay better on the Tote and you could play the place market with the fat ones. Also the kids had a chance of a few quid with their bets.
Now its all 1.02 and shocking bad value vs SP.
I dont play anymore bar the PP and the odd JP , that pick 6 is a joke.

Has anyone else noticed the poor return for tote betting?

I fail to see the reason for this , the excuse given is the opening of the markets to the online punters.
But trying to find exact information on profit and loss and % over SP etc is impossible.

They are owned AFAIK by HRI and face very little competition at racedays with the corporate crowds so you would imagine the % return should be favourable on the non fancied horses but this isnt the case.

The machines will claim value on a runner right at the off , for example , maybe evens on a 2/1 SP Fav for a place only yet it will return 1.10 or the typical 1.02.
Surely that is misleading at best?
And im sure the corporate crowd who are a vital lifeline to tracks must feel ripped off when their €50 bet returns a euro , that takes the piss!
Likewise the SP of 4/1 returning something silly on the tote.
Of course we understand that it can pay more etc but im failing to see that on the boards.

Then the argument of what they put back into the venues is a whole other debate.

Has anyone else noticed the decline of the value?
What are the salaries lifted by the directors? As directors of HRI do they lift from both organisations?
Are the yearly accounts available?
What % do they take from pools?

I feel this is a vital part of increasing footfall on racedays and my opinion is that Tote is giving the occasional and seasoned punter alike a real bum deal and driving folk away.

Thoughts?

abarkie

You could look on http://search.cro.ie/company/

Tote ireland shows:

Name Number Address Type
DATA TOTE SYSTEMS (IRELAND) LIMITED 48707 6, FITZWILLIAM PLACE, DUBLIN 2. C
TOTE IRELAND LIMITED 225593 HORSE RACING IRELAND BALLYMANY THE CURRAGH CO KILDARE C
TOTE INVESTORS (IRELAND), LIMITED 8194 HORSE RACING IRELAND BALLYMANY THE CURRAGH CO KILDARE C

Horse racing Ireland shows:

Name Number Address Type
HORSE RACING DIRECTORY OF IRELAND 180970 LYNWOOD HOUSE, BALLINTEER ROAD, DUBLIN 16. B
HORSE RACING TELEVISION IRELAND 288842 66, THE FAIRWAYS CASTLETROY LIMERICK B


I think its €6 to download

Hope this helps

STB.

Its a subsidiary of HRI. Could the poor returns be down to too many clever punters like Sean Graham also using it! They have those tote machines now in some of the independent off course bookies office now, dont they.

hawkwind23

STB. wrote: »

Its a subsidiary of HRI. Could the poor returns be down to too many clever punters like Sean Graham also using it! They have those tote machines now in some of the independent off course bookies office now, dont they.

Sorry , i dont understand?
Why would a bookie use the tote? to offset bets maybe but the purple site is more reliable.

Also there may be value seconds before the off but when you take it the final return is vastly different.

Should be more transparent , does anyone know the % they take for each bet and how that has changed over the years?
And why does the final return change from whats displayed at the off.

Im not having a go at them , i would just like to know.

As a racegoer who takes the wife and kids im feeling very short-changed , they play the tote and while the profits of Tote Ireland have rocketed it seems to be at the punters expense.

So rather than attracting footfall at the track , it would appear to be driving tote players away and that seems an odd thing for HRI to be doing.

kalinisi

Living in Canada, work close by a sports bar and would be in there the odd time on lunch / after work , during the summer would have the odd bet on there tote machine on irish racing and also at dundalk in the evennings. Returns are on the tote ireland price have to say almost all my returns bar one or two would have been better on Betfair or with teh Bookies.

Not sure if the international betting pool goes directly into that tote return pool but id imagine it does.

in the main id do my betting on betfair anyway, but the returns on teh tote are definitly ****e

BumperD

Do they take a 30% rake from all bets? They still do on the jackpot yet advertise it at 100% which is grossly misleading.

hawkwind23

BumperD wrote: »

Do they take a 30% rake from all bets? They still do on the jackpot yet advertise it at 100% which is grossly misleading.

This is the problem , i cant find that information easily , its not transparent when it should be!

They most likely take that sort of % from the Pick 6 or Jackpot/Placepot

I would like to think the Win and Place markets are 15% or thereabouts but have no idea.

Somethings not right anyways , used to be value when Tote was operated within each track and now with the international markets the operator makes more profits but the punter on track is short changed big time

All IMO of course , hoping someone will add to the thread with more exact information

NewApproach

They take 30% from PIck 6, Jackpot, and slightly less on win and place markets

hawkwind23

NewApproach wrote: »

They take 30% from PIck 6, Jackpot, and slightly less on win and place markets

If its anywhere near 30% on win and place markets then that explains the returns!

And after some digging ive found the figures and im shocked!

https://www.thetote.com/cms/Tote%20Pool%20Rules

Win 20%

Place 25%

All Other Pools 30%



So if we compare to the UK

Deductions

Below is a list of the % deductions from each type of tote bet:

Win Bet - 16.5%

Place Bet - 18%

Jackpot - 29%

Placepot - 27%

Quadpot - 26%

Scoop 6 - 30%

Exacta - 25%

Trifecta - 25%

Toteswinger - 30%

http://www.bookmakers1.com/tote.html

Unreal!

Why the stupendous difference in the main pools?
Greed?

BumperD

Probably a smaller pool to cover overheads here i.e. U.K. Bigger market

hawkwind23

BumperD wrote: »

Probably a smaller pool to cover overheads here i.e. U.K. Bigger market

That doesnt make sense as its been opened up to international markets to increase liquidity.
more liquidity = more deductions

IN FACT , the UK market with several races each day would have similar intake but much higher operating costs with staff and maintenance.