Increase in Bad Driving

onmebike

Has anybody else noticed an increase in incidents of driver aggression, lack of manners and general lack of consideration for cyclists in the last few weeks? I've been experiencing much more of these types of incidents and can almost hear the mental "f**k em" as they look at me when doing these things.

• Drivers passing way too close only to be held up in slow moving traffic seconds later and then re-passed by me (each day)
• Drivers accelerating, then braking hard to turn left immediately in front of me rather than slowing for a few seconds (multiple times each day)
• Drivers shooting up bus lanes, seemingly exceeding the speed limit, and passing way too close (most days)
• Drivers using the horn to indicate their displeasure with me not using rubbish cycle lanes (every few days)

These are things that will always happen on occasion, but there seems to me to be a notable increase inconsiderate behaviour. Anybody else see this or is it just me?

beauf

Maybe you're too far to the left?

Beasty

There are more drivers on the road as the economy grows and this is the busiest time of the year for traffic now the schools are back. More people wanting to get to where they want to be with minimum delay = more risks taken

seamus

Early October to mid-December is about the worst time on the road. The days are colder and wetter, so more people driving. The mornings (and evenings) are darker, so more people are grumpier and sleepier behind the wheel. Think about all those stresses you have in the morning - waking up to an alarm, dragging yourself out of bed, trying to get breakfast made while you drag the kids out of bed, get them dressed and hooshed out the door.

You get on your bike and all that stress goes away. Those other poor idiots get behind the wheel of a car. Imagine it.

Consequently, November is the worst month of the year for bicycle collisions.

Macy0161

I would say there's a general increase in aggression, not just towards cyclists. Also more motorists taking increased risks with bus lanes as the traffic gets worse - either just chancing their arm, or entering earlier and earlier when they're taking the next left.

onmebike

beauf wrote: »

Maybe you're too far to the left?

No different to usual. I usually have quite an assertive position...well outside double yellow lines, for example.

beauf

I would say its just a lot busier at the moment. Also there's a lot more accidents. On the M50/N3 have a multiple accidents (and tailbacks) a day now. Driving at you, and braking last minute for junctions, tailgating is now normal. Almost no visible enforcement I can see. I just plan my route to quieter roads, paths.

Jawgap

I think it's just a seasonal thing.

I've noticed in the past drivers tend to crankier from when the clocks go back until Christmas.

Maybe darker evenings / mornings mean people drive more cautiously and consequently things are even slower than usual?

onmebike

It did seem to coincide with the clocks going, but I thought I must be going mad. I've been cycling in the dark in the mornings for several weeks, so nothing really changed there.

I never knew that November was the worst month for collisions. I can see it making sense - it's a dark month but in December and January there's probably more of a tendency to frost which would put a lot of people off cycling.

jon1981

It's already been mentioned, there's more of a hurry this time of the year. Drivers rushing to schools to drop off kids, trying to beat the traffic. Generally loads more cars on the road and the roads are struggling to support it.

niallofthenine

onmebike wrote: »

Has anybody else noticed an increase in incidents of driver aggression, lack of manners and general lack of consideration for cyclists in the last few weeks? I've been experiencing much more of these types of incidents and can almost hear the mental "f**k em" as they look at me when doing these things.

• Drivers passing way too close only to be held up in slow moving traffic seconds later and then re-passed by me (each day)
  
  You have already said you have ample room to the left, perhaps if you shared some of that room you would be more comfortable, and safer, and of course if you used the cycle lanes, then you would not have the problem. Of course, we should be able to share the lane ... etc..
  
• Drivers accelerating, then braking hard to turn left immediately in front of me rather than slowing for a few seconds (multiple times each day)
  
  What do you want here? them to slow down for you, but you wont slow down for them? a bit of give and take will go a long way
  
• Drivers shooting up bus lanes, seemingly exceeding the speed limit, and passing way too close (most days)
  
  None of your business what speed cars drive at, but during operating hours they shouldnt be in the lane, of course a few metres isnt the end of the world, as mentioned above a bit of give and take wont kill anyone
  
• Drivers using the horn to indicate their displeasure with me not using rubbish cycle lanes (every few days)
  
  You're bringing that upon yourself to be fair. How would you react if a car drove exclusively on the cycle lane? If you are willing to cycle on the road, although you have been provided with a cycle lane, then be willing to deal with the consequences, and added risks.
  

These are things that will always happen on occasion, but there seems to me to be a notable increase inconsiderate behaviour. Anybody else see this or is it just me?

Concluding thoughts
-If everyone else is wrong, then the problem probably lies with you.

Beasty

I'm guessing most of the problems are in the Dublin commuter belt. Anyone seeing a big difference elsewhere?

Tenzor07

So when did bad driving ever decrease?

Rubberchikken

i don't think the excuse that it's november, wet, cold, busier whatever is a valid excuse for the way that some drivers and cyclists behave on our roads.
the arrogance/speed/ignorance/frustration are always there, it's just more noticable the more a person uses the roads and from the point of view of a cyclist who is obeying the rules, it has to be very dangerous at time and frustrating at other times.

personally i don't see a difference between road users i.e. cyclists/lorry drivers/cars. everyone on the road is entitled to use it. those that are most vunerable should be given a bit of leeway.

of course, some cyclists would probably make a driver tear their hair out, but a little bit of patience wouldn't go astray and an equal amount of cop on from every road user would make things a whole lot easier. but i realise that's unachievable so i'll stick with me doing my best;)

Beasty

No one is suggesting it's an excuse. The points are being made as explanations of increasing incidents of bad and risky driving

jon1981

Some tips


http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/are-you-a-psycho-in-the-saddle-score-two-or-more-here-and-you-need-to-chill/

2 You think drivers are getting worse

Undoubtedly there are still some really awful drivers on the roads and those who actively hate cyclists. But with the boom in cycling across the island of Ireland in recent years, motorists are more aware they are sharing the roads with an army of men and women on two wheels. Don’t get us wrong; there is still a long, long way to go before all drivers recognise that cyclists have as much right as they have to be on the roads. But, by and large, things are getting better.

So OP are you a psycholist rather than a cyclist?

Beasty

Tenzor07 wrote: »

So when did bad driving ever decrease?

There was without doubt a significant improvement throughout the recession largely (if not exclusively) down to the fact there were a lot less motor vehicles on the road.

On the other side the BTW scheme and indeed the impact if the recession have contributed to a significant increase in cyclists on the road and the behaviour of quite a significant number of cyclists has certainly not helped the situation.

jon1981

To the point above, I came out of smithfield from work last night at 6pm, pitch black. Immediately encountered 2 cyclists wearing dark clothing and not an LED or Bulb in sight. You would be forgiven for not seeing them as a driver. Shared responsibility between cyclist and driver here. You can't be be going out like that at this time of the year.

Fian

niallofthenine wrote: »

You're bringing that upon yourself to be fair. How would you react if a car drove exclusively on the cycle lane? If you are willing to cycle on the road, although you have been provided with a cycle lane, then be willing to deal with the consequences, and added risks.


Concluding thoughts
-If everyone else is wrong, then the problem probably lies with you.

Cyclists have as much entitlement to use the road as car drivers, despite taking up considerable less of it and causing less congestion or pollution. The fact that a cyclist chooses the road rather than a sub-standard cycle lane does not entitle any other vehicles to expose them to added risks.

Go away.

onmebike

niallofthenine wrote: »

Concluding thoughts
-If everyone else is wrong, then the problem probably lies with you.

Bit of a curve ball there. I didn't say everyone or even imply it. I'm referring to a perceived increase.

I started this thread to ask if others have seen it too and it appears that others have.

Beasty

Fian wrote: »

Go away.

If you have a problem with a post or poster report the post or PM the mods. Any questions PM me - do not respond to this warning in-thread

onmebike

jon1981 wrote: »

Some tips


http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/are-you-a-psycho-in-the-saddle-score-two-or-more-here-and-you-need-to-chill/




So OP are you a psycholist rather than a cyclist?

I'd say the latter. I don't wilt under pressure from cars that are in places that they shouldn't be, but I wouldn't be flipping the bird at everybody who 'wrongs' me.

JBokeh

All the fair-weather clueless commuters are in their cars again now, driving with the same amount of awareness which they cycle with. The type of lad on a bike his sister got when she was 16, with his pants getting sucked through the chainrings, that gives you dirty looks for stopping at a red light, even though you're only to pass him as soon as they turn green. Now he is in his car with the phone glued to the ear, moaning about cyclists in his way

I travel early to avoid the main rush of traffic, but if i'm making a call somewhere I've noticed that as soon as the clocks go back, it is mainly the die hard cyclists are out on their bikes, and the morons are in their cars.

jon1981

onmebike wrote: »

I'd say the latter. I don't wilt under pressure from cars that are in places that they shouldn't be

I'm not ashamed to wilt. I think you need to cycle defensively, by that i don't mean carry a machete with me, i mean if I know a driver is doing or likely to do something stupid that creates a 1-2 tonne vehicle vs 75Kg me situation, i'm backing down. No point in risking a few broken bones or worse to keep the moral high ground.

duffman3833

its not just this time of year, all year round, Some, not all, people are just bad. Roundabouts are worse now, i cant trust a single car on a roundabout as they don't know how to indicate, be in correct lane etc. I often see people indicating to turn off a roundabout but end up going round it and me nearly pulling out but yes this time of year certainly has an increase of Stupidity as the weather is colder and duller and people insist on driving everywhere

schemingbohemia

jon1981 wrote: »

To the point above, I came out of smithfield from work last night at 6pm, pitch black. Immediately encountered 2 cyclists wearing dark clothing and not an LED or Bulb in sight. You would be forgiven for not seeing them as a driver. Shared responsibility between cyclist and driver here. You can't be be going out like that at this time of the year.

Just about was able to see a Taxi without headlights on last night, this is obviously proof of something or other.......probably whataboutery.....

schemingbohemia

JBokeh wrote: »

All the fair-weather clueless commuters are in their cars again now, driving with the same amount of awareness which they cycle with. The type of lad on a bike his sister got when she was 16, with his pants getting sucked through the chainrings, that gives you dirty looks for stopping at a red light, even though you're only to pass him as soon as they turn green. Now he is in his car with the phone glued to the ear, moaning about cyclists in his way

I travel early to avoid the main rush of traffic, but if i'm making a call somewhere I've noticed that as soon as the clocks go back, it is mainly the die hard cyclists are out on their bikes, and the morons are in their cars.

this is just charming on so many levels

Harrybelafonte

It's probably just all the fairweather cyclists deciding to start driving to work again.

niallofthenine

Fian wrote: »

Cyclists have as much entitlement to use the road as car drivers, despite taking up considerable less of it and causing less congestion or pollution. The fact that a cyclist chooses the road rather than a sub-standard cycle lane does not entitle any other vehicles to expose them to added risks.

Go away.

I like the way you took 1 snippet of what I said and tried to manipulate it to make it look like I'm trying to aggravate cyclists.
But to feed the troll, lets digest what you have said.

Cyclists have as much entitlement to use the road as car drivers
A+, very good observation, one which had not been explored before now, and one which no one on this thread disputed.

despite taking up considerable less of it and causing less congestion or pollution
Good to know the pro's and cons of cycling, albeit not the title of the thread

The fact that a cyclist chooses the road rather than a sub-standard cycle lane does not entitle any other vehicles to expose them to added risks.


Please allow me to dumb this down a little further for our challenged readers.
If im in a field, playing on my own, there is a hugely improbable (but not impossible) chance that i am going to get run over by a car - this would be solely due to inattention of the driver.
However, if in fact i take my playing to the side of the road, then the risk of me getting hit by a car dramatically increases, due to several reasons,
1 being that im at the side of the road.
2 im not as easy to see as a car
3 i may run out onto the road (to avoid a pothole, or a speed wobble for cyclists)
4 inattention of my playing
5 inattention of the driver
and a cluster of other anomalies. So in essence, by the very nature of cycling on the road, the cyclist is exposing his or herself to increased risk of injury or death and only one of those reasons is solely due to malice on a drivers behalf. when you decide to cycle on the road, even when there is a cycle lane available, you should be aware of the risk you have decided to take, and act accordingly. PS. Is it legal to cycle on the road when a cycle lane is provided?

I really would have thought this to be common sense anymore but it seems that common sense isnt all that common.

Finally, when an as5hole on 4 wheels meets an as5hole on 2 wheels, who wins? Cemetries are full of people who were "right"

brianomc

Something I've noticed recently is cars taking off from lights as soon as the lights turn red for the traffic coming across them. Pair this with people going through lights for 3 seconds after they turn red and it wont end well.

I had some clown do this in the fog this morning at Conyngham Road where it meets the park. Luckily no cars were leaving the park at the time, just a cyclist, and even he nervously joined up with the main road after breaking the lights.

If everyone just relaxed a little we'd be doing fine. I have to admit, when I was driving I suffered the worst road rage. I didn't speed or break red lights but the sight of someone changing lane without indicating led to me vocalising my thoughts. Someone behind beeps their horn at me, aw hell no, time for me to crawl along to piss them off further. Probably the result of it taking me an hour to drive 7km.

seamus

niallofthenine wrote: »

If im in a field, playing on my own, there is a hugely improbable (but not impossible) chance that i am going to get run over by a car - this would be solely due to inattention of the driver.

Your analogy only holds up if you're playing in a field with a number of roads running right through the middle of it.

Off-road Cycle tracks that run parallel to the road typically increase the chances of a collision. Cycle tracks that run *on* the road reduce this risk.

This is to do with the nature of conflict - where the road and the cycle track intersect, there's a far higher chance of collision due to the inattention of the cyclist or the driver. On-road cycle tracks don't suffer the same issue since the intersections are treated the same as for other traffic.

There are also a lot of other issues such as maintenance and grip that mean you're far more likely to come off a bicycle on an off-road track than an on-road one.

Chips Lovell

@niallofthenine

Please read the forum charter before posting again on this thread, in particular section 8.

Thank you.

Wishbone Ash

niallofthenine wrote: »

..PS. Is it legal to cycle on the road when a cycle lane is provided?..

Yes, the only exceptions are when the road is a counterflow or the cycle track is on a pedestrian area.

(You should really know this before you comment on cyclists' behaviour).

beauf

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Just about was able to see a Taxi without headlights on last night, this is obviously proof of something or other.......probably whataboutery.....

In the fog the other morning about 50% of cars had no lights on at all.

I haven't the foggiest what that implies either.

dermabrasion

Just a quick point about going when the opposing traffic light has just turned red; I do this on my bike, after checking no-one is (or likely to) run the red light. Specifically, I am clipped in and inching forward so I'm just moving when my light turns green. The reason I do this is to be assertive and establish my space ahead of following cars. I will have perhaps 10 meters on them before they catch me. Because I am ahead, they have a better chance of seeing me, and will have to over take me. Also, if I need to make a right turn, I have established the gap that allows me signal, and look behind directly at the driver. It gives me a better chance.
Of course, there are drivers who could not give a crap what I do.

check_six

beauf wrote: »

In the fog the other morning about 50% of cars had no lights on at all.

I haven't the foggiest what that implies either.

I felt this was especially ironic given that many people switch on their fog lights the rest of the time (because it makes the car look "nicer", apparently!!).

Wishbone Ash

check_six wrote: »

I felt this was especially ironic given that many people switch on their fog lights the rest of the time (because it makes the car look "nicer", apparently!!).

...and many totally unaware that it is illegal to do so. Of course, the nice salesman in the showroom has drawn their attention to the extra "spot lights" that the new model comes with!

dbagman

onmebike wrote:

Has anybody else noticed an increase in incidents of driver aggression, lack of manners and general lack of consideration for cyclists in the last few weeks? I've been experiencing much more of these types of incidents and can almost hear the mental "f**k em" as they look at me when doing these things. Drivers passing way too close only to be held up in slow moving traffic seconds later and then re-passed by me (each day)Drivers accelerating, then braking hard to turn left immediately in front of me rather than slowing for a few seconds (multiple times each day)Drivers shooting up bus lanes, seemingly exceeding the speed limit, and passing way too close (most days)Drivers using the horn to indicate their displeasure with me not using rubbish cycle lanes (every few days) These are things that will always happen on occasion, but there seems to me to be a notable increase inconsiderate behaviour. Anybody else see this or is it just me?

onmebike wrote:

Drivers using the horn to indicate their displeasure with me not using rubbish cycle lanes (every few days)

You see this gets right on my goat. Why wouldn't you use cycle lanes? I can guarantee if you were cycling on one and a car was parked on it blocking your way you'd be the first to complain. I don't get your reference to them being "rubbish". Bar covering them with red carpet how do you propose they improve them? It's a tarmac lane dedicated to cyclists. You cant be anything other than safer on them. What more do you want? How can't you understand people's fury with a cyclists refusal to use them and insistence on unneccessairly holding up traffic.

Chips Lovell

@dbagman

Please read the forum charter before posting again on this thread, in particular section 8.

Thank you.

Fian

dbagman wrote: »

You see this gets right on my goat. Why wouldn't you use cycle lanes? I can guarantee if you were cycling on one and a car was parked on it blocking your way you'd be the first to complain. I don't get your reference to them being "rubbish". Bar covering them with red carpet how do you propose they improve them? It's a tarmac lane dedicated to cyclists. You cant be anything other than safer on them. What more do you want? How can't you understand people's fury with a cyclists refusal to use them and insistence on unneccessairly holding up traffic.

An oversimplification but: there are generally two types of cycle lanes - on road and off road.

The on-road ones are indeed "a tarmac lane dedicated to cyclists" and personally I have never encountered a cyclist who refused to use an on-road lane, apart from popping out of it to overtake, turn right or avoid a pothole/puddle. Presumably there are some on-road lanes with a sufficiently awful surface that they don't get used but i have yet to find one in Dublin.

Then we have the off-road ones, like the cycle lane along the stillorgan dual carriageway. Again there are exceptions but for the most part these are not "a tarmac lane" - they are a thin layer of pink stuff laid down over the footpath. If they were just painted in place they would be far better because the pink stuff is all eroded and cratered, at least a path would be more smooth. The off road ones also frequently require cyclists to yield at every junction/bus stop where they would have the right of way if they were on the adjacent road. Cars are more likely to take a left turn across the path of a cyclist on these off road lanes. Basically these lanes are almost always less comfortable and less safe than using the road.

Cyclists have the option to use the roads or a cycle lane, they have no obligation to use a cycle lane. If they are choosing to use the road in preference to a cycle lane it is generally because it is a better option for them than the cycle lane.

I am sure you realise (or will if you think about it for a second) that cyclists are not doing it just to inconvenience / infuriate motorists - why would we? The motorists who beep at cyclist for not using the (optional ) cycle lanes, or worse yet who "punishment pass" closely to educate the cyclists presumably just have never tried cycling on one and don't realise how inadequate and dangerous those off road lanes are.

Jawgap

dbagman wrote: »

You see this gets right on my goat. Why wouldn't you use cycle lanes? I can guarantee if you were cycling on one and a car was parked on it blocking your way you'd be the first to complain. I don't get your reference to them being "rubbish". Bar covering them with red carpet how do you propose they improve them? It's a tarmac lane dedicated to cyclists. You cant be anything other than safer on them. What more do you want? How can't you understand people's fury with a cyclists refusal to use them and insistence on unneccessairly holding up traffic.

Cleaning them occasionally would be a good start (especially now we're in leaf fall season). Along with repairing some of the bigger potholes.

It would also be useful if they were routed on a 'micro' level to avoid drains and gratings - or if these items were of a construction that didn't present a risk to cyclists (gratings parallel to the direction of travel are an obvious no-no).

Also, in my view, on-road tracks are better because you have right-of-way and are not worried about anyone pulling out of a property entrance. Nor do you have to worry about navigating around pedestrians, bus queues, joggers, dog walkers etc.

Finally, if we are to have off road cycle tracks on pavements, removing things like bus stops in the track would help as would proper dishing of pavements where a cyclist is required to join a roadway.

jon1981

Another reason not to use some cycle lanes .... this is a beauty.

Cycle lane on the path on North strand road in Dublin which cuts right through a bus stop. Not safe for cyclist nor pedestrian.



Idea for a name and shame cycle lane thread ?!?! :cool:

MB Lacey

Cycling on the road, whether a cycle lane is there or not, from years of cycling experience, is my safest option and my legal right.

Cycle lanes off road are unpredictacle, stop suddenly, have people walking in them, bins, bus stops and road signs cemented into the middle, glass and debris on the surface and slippy wet leaves at this time of year too.
Off road Cycle lanes are not for me.

With regards to drivers, I've actually noticed way more thoughtful and considerate driving in the last few years due to the mass numbers of cyclists, drivers have become far more aware.
It's great.

mcgratheoin

Fian wrote: »

Presumably there are some on-road lanes with a sufficiently awful surface that they don't get used but i have yet to find one in Dublin.

Phoenix Park - Parkgate Gate to the first roundabout - beautifully smooth road surface with awful on-road cycle lane - this also tends to have an ice-cream van parked in it all summer long.

Jawgap

one of my favourites.......

Heading north you are expecting to cross the road to use this cycle track.....

Baron Kurtz

dermabrasion wrote: »

Just a quick point about going when the opposing traffic light has just turned red; I do this on my bike, after checking no-one is (or likely to) run the red light. Specifically, I am clipped in and inching forward so I'm just moving when my light turns green. The reason I do this is to be assertive and establish my space ahead of following cars. I will have perhaps 10 meters on them before they catch me. Because I am ahead, they have a better chance of seeing me, and will have to over take me. Also, if I need to make a right turn, I have established the gap that allows me signal, and look behind directly at the driver. It gives me a better chance.
Of course, there are drivers who could not give a crap what I do.

This is a valid point and one I've mentioned briefly with others. In particular I think something could be implemented for a right-turn ahead. Think Burlington Road with the potential to turn off to Appian Way. As you said it's about establishing early. If you're not positioned centre or make an early start then forget about getting in position make a RHTurn. Even prolonged signalling to attempt to move right will be ignored here.

Chips Lovell

I've never had to break the lights to make a right turn.

onmebike

dbagman wrote: »

You see this gets right on my goat. Why wouldn't you use cycle lanes? I can guarantee if you were cycling on one and a car was parked on it blocking your way you'd be the first to complain. I don't get your reference to them being "rubbish". Bar covering them with red carpet how do you propose they improve them? It's a tarmac lane dedicated to cyclists. You cant be anything other than safer on them. What more do you want? How can't you understand people's fury with a cyclists refusal to use them and insistence on unneccessairly holding up traffic.

Personally, my main reason is the much increased likelihood of getting a puncture when using one. The sweeping and maintenance of them typically ranges from non-existent to poor.

Your guarantee is wrong. Every day I pass lots of cars that are parked in cycle lanes and I don't complain. I get on with it. It's part of cycling/driving. Inconsiderate behaviour that is dangerous to me is something that I'm not quite so happy about.

Edit: Just to further clarify, cars and other vehicles tend to keep the surface of the main roadway clean from broken glass and other debris. Bigger tyres can pick that up with no ill effects. An off-road cycle lane doesn't have that traffic on it to keep it 'clean', so they are only cleaned on occasions when the council deliberately gets to them.

onmebike

dbagman wrote: »

...What more do you want? How can't you understand people's fury with a cyclists refusal to use them and insistence on unneccessairly holding up traffic.

And just to mention this point too. When I'm on a bike, I'm hardly a wide load on the road. The incidents that I'm talking about take place in typical traffic.

Every day I'm having cars pass me with a very narrow berth only to come to a stop behind another car in 20m. This might sound like an exaggeration, but it's not. It's as if passing me on the bike is the objective and paying attention to the trends of other traffic is secondary.

On other occasions where it's a fairly clear road, I've had drivers get upset when my presence slows them for about 5 seconds. E.g., I had a taxi beep at me last week when there were some islands on the overtaking side of the road. I had a fair tailwind so he only had to slow from 60km/h to 40km/h for about 5 seconds. Literally. I reckon his frustration was borne from not properly anticipating the road furniture and having to brake suddenly. It was easier to blame me than himself.

Baron Kurtz

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I've never had to break the lights to make a right turn.

Good man.

Wishbone Ash

onmebike wrote: »

... I'm hardly a wide load on the road...

Therein lies your problem. Make yourself into a wide load and move out from the kerb. If you're travelling in an average width bus lane, no car/bus should physically be able to overtake you.