Legality of Confiscating NEW Social Services Cards (free travel type)

GM228

Was looking for people's input in this, debating with a few people over the legality of a ticket inspector in the various transport organisations confiscating free travel passes.

Now we all know and agree that an inspector can legally confiscate any ticket/pass when fraudulent use is suspected and this is covered under bye-laws, T&Cs etc.

However some seem to be of belief that the newer type of passes (combined Social Services & FTP) may not legally be allowed to be confiscated due to them ALSO been a social services card as a social services card is NOT listed as a travel pass or something which can be confiscated.

As I said I know any pass can be confiscated so no need to point to links, laws etc, it's just some believe that a social services card can't be confiscated for whatever reasons and so a conflict arises with the card!

Any opinions welcome.

GM228

Paulw

Have you tried contacting the Dept of Social Welfare to ask them their view? Or the Dept of Transport?

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/contact-us_home.aspx

http://www.dttas.ie/corporate/english/contact-us

GM228

Paulw wrote: »

Have you tried contacting the Dept of Social Welfare to ask them their view? Or the Dept of Transport?

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/contact-us_home.aspx

http://www.dttas.ie/corporate/english/contact-us

I could see either organisation giving a massive confusing answer pointing at this, that and the other which actually when you read it avoids answering the original question!

GM228

schemingbohemia

GM228 wrote: »

I could see either organisation giving a massive confusing answer pointing at this, that and the other which actually when you read it avoids answering the original question!

GM228

So that's a "no" then, you haven't actually asked either of them?

ohnonotgmail

GM228 wrote: »

Was looking for people's input in this, debating with a few people over the legality of a ticket inspector in the various transport organisations confiscating free travel passes.

Now we all know and agree that an inspector can legally confiscate any ticket/pass when fraudulent use is suspected and this is covered under bye-laws, T&Cs etc.

However some seem to be of belief that the newer type of passes (combined Social Services & FTP) may not legally be allowed to be confiscated due to them ALSO been a social services card as a social services card is NOT listed as a travel pass or something which can be confiscated.

As I said I know any pass can be confiscated so no need to point to links, laws etc, it's just some believe that a social services card can't be confiscated for whatever reasons and so a conflict arises with the card!

Any opinions welcome.

GM228

Surely the only reason they would confiscate is if the card is being used fraudulently i.e. not by the person the card was issued to. In that case they just call the guards and they can confiscate it.

Carawaystick

I doubt it is legal to confiscate. You need one to collect social welfare payments.
If a person cannot receive their social welfare payments, they are likely to suffer extreme hardship.
It would not be acceptable to impose this level of hardship on the mere suspicion of fraud.

haveringchick

As all PSCs remain the property of theMinister for Social Protection then naturally an Inspector is entitled to take it away from you, so I wouldn't be trying to argue from that angle at all

ohnonotgmail

Carawaystick wrote: »

I doubt it is legal to confiscate. You need one to collect social welfare payments.
If a person cannot receive their social welfare payments, they are likely to suffer extreme hardship.
It would not be acceptable to impose this level of hardship on the mere suspicion of fraud.

dont the new cards have a picture on them? so if an inspector is handed a card that does not belong to the person they are talking to they should just hand it back?

haveringchick

Carawaystick wrote: »

I doubt it is legal to confiscate. You need one to collect social welfare payments.
If a person cannot receive their social welfare payments, they are likely to suffer extreme hardship.
It would not be acceptable to impose this level of hardship on the mere suspicion of fraud.

Once again the card remains the property of the Minister, so they have a right to withdraw it if they suspect you are using it fraudulently.
Of course if you need a card to collect your main payment in the PO then you can go to your local DSP office and get a temporary card while the fraud allegation is being dealt with
If no fraud is found you will have your card returned
If there is fraud expect your entire claim to be reviewed
And rightly so

haveringchick

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

dont the new cards have a picture on them? so if an inspector is handed a card that does not belong to the person they are talking to they should just hand it back?

Hand it back and let the fraudster go on his merry way?

ohnonotgmail

haveringchick wrote: »

Hand it back and let the fraudster go on his merry way?

the question was rhetorical.

gctest50

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

dont the new cards have a picture on them? so if an inspector is handed a card that does not belong to the person they are talking to they should just hand it back?

don't have to − the facial recognition software will sort it

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/welfare-fraudster-caught-using-facial-recognition-software-1.2277707

.

ohnonotgmail

gctest50 wrote: »

don't have to − the facial recognition software will sort it

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/welfare-fraudster-caught-using-facial-recognition-software-1.2277707

.

i dont think that is really what the OP is asking.

haveringchick

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the question was rhetorical.

I see that now. My apologies

Carawaystick

Fraud can be reported here

Of course there could be fraud suspected if a young and old person travelled as spouses or partners and an inspector thought they were not spouses.
Or an inspector could make a mistake.
Having a combined card increases the severity of an incorrect suspicion of fraud, and so should have a higher threshold for the confiscation of a card.

JimsAlterEgo

Carawaystick wrote: »

Fraud can be reported here

Of course there could be fraud suspected if a young and old person travelled as spouses or partners and an inspector thought they were not spouses.
Or an inspector could make a mistake.
Having a combined card increases the severity of an incorrect suspicion of fraud, and so should have a higher threshold for the confiscation of a card.

Or makes it less likely people will commit fraud as they will lose their card? I know which one I would prefer. People suspected of fraud incorrectly have ways of getting their payments even without their cards.

Carawaystick

Its a bit irish to create a secure id card infrastructure to reduce sw fraud, and then have a handy workaround if the id card is taken...