How to beat a southpaw

Andre 3000

efb wrote: »

You can stick a golden horn on a horse won't make it a unicorn...

What a horrendous analogy. Well these horses certainly did well when a golden horn was put on them.

Tyson
Ward
Manny
Donaire
Kessler
De La Hoya
Cotto
Barrera
Sergio Martinez
Winky Wright
Rigondeaux
Lomachenko

And that's just a few examples. Some of the greatest boxers that have graced the ring in the last 20 or so years. Ward, Rigo and Loma in particular are some of the best technical boxers ever. Throw in the likes of Tyson, Manny, Oscar, Cotto, Barrera...all time greats...not bad for horses with golden horns thrown on them huh?

efb

Andre 3000 wrote: »

What a horrendous analogy. Well these horses certainly did well when a golden horn was put on them.

Tyson
Ward
Manny
Donaire
Kessler
De La Hoya
Cotto
Barrera
Sergio Martinez
Winky Wright
Rigondeaux
Lomachenko

And that's just a few examples. Some of the greatest boxers that have graced the ring in the last 20 or so years. Ward, Rigo and Loma in particular are some of the best technical boxers ever. Throw in the likes of Tyson, Manny, Oscar, Cotto, Barrera...all time greats...not bad for horses with golden horns thrown on them huh?

They are versatile fighters, at the top level you should be able fight both styles

walshb

Andre 3000 wrote: »

What a horrendous analogy. Well these horses certainly did well when a golden horn was put on them.

Tyson
Ward
Manny
Donaire
Kessler
De La Hoya
Cotto
Barrera
Sergio Martinez
Winky Wright
Rigondeaux
Lomachenko

And that's just a few examples. Some of the greatest boxers that have graced the ring in the last 20 or so years. Ward, Rigo and Loma in particular are some of the best technical boxers ever. Throw in the likes of Tyson, Manny, Oscar, Cotto, Barrera...all time greats...not bad for horses with golden horns thrown on them huh?

Andre,

Can you elaborate a bit more on this. The list you posted, are you implying that these fighters are right handed or left handed? What is the relevance as regards being a soutpaw/orthodox? You mention several orthodox fighters here. Are these all left handed?

Oscar is left hand dominant, (mostly associated with southpaws), and looking at him it seems that his feet and balance don't seem as stable as they should. I always thought that of Oscar, and was not aware until now that he was left hand dominant. He always looked as if he was unsetady on his feet.

It just proves that the hand you write with is not at all the deciding factor on the stance you take.

Andre 3000

efb wrote: »

They are versatile fighters, at the top level you should be able fight both styles

Yet none of them fought/fight both orthodox and/or southpaw aka they're not switch hitters. I think I have seen Andre Ward switch to southpaw a few times, and Winky switched to orthodox a bit...but most if not all of them fought the one style as does 99% of boxers. The true switch hitter is very very rare.

You say at the top level you should be able to fight both styles, please name me 10 "top level" guys who fight both styles then. Take out Andre Dirrell and Terence Crawford and I'm struggling to think of any current fighters off the top of my head.

Andre 3000

walshb wrote: »

Andre,

Can you elaborate a bit more on this. The list you posted, are you implying that these fighters are right handed or left handed? What is the relevance as regards being a soutpaw/orthodox? You mention several orthodox fighters here. Are these all left handed?

Oscar is left hand dominant, (mostly associated with southpaws), and looking at him it seems that his feet and balance don't seem as stable as they should. I always thought that of Oscar, and was not aware until now that he was left hand dominant. He always looked as if he was unsetady on his feet.

It just proves that the hand you write with is not at all the deciding factor on the stance you take.

Yep indeed.

Tyson - left handed yet fought orthodox (note how strong his left hand was)
Ward - left handed yet fought orthodox (again very strong left hand technically)
Manny - right handed yet fights southpaw
Donaire - left handed yet fights orthodox although he too is a switch hitter to be fair
Kessler - left handed yet fought orthodox (again great left hand)
De La Hoya - as you say left handed, yet fought orthodox
Cotto - left handed, orthodox (Cotto known for his left hand)
Barrera - left handed, orthodox
Sergio Martinez - right handed, southpaw
Winky Wright - right handed, southpaw
Rigondeaux - right handed, southpaw
Lomachenko - right handed, southpaw

So the whole real/unnatural thing is bullsh*t. I'd love to see someone convince me Rigo or Loma are unnatural southpaws. Or that Andre Ward is an unnatural orthdox fighter. They are at the pinnacle of their craft.

walshb

Thanks, Andre. Well broken down.

efb

Andre 3000 wrote: »

Yet none of them fought/fight both orthodox and/or southpaw aka they're not switch hitters. I think I have seen Andre Ward switch to southpaw a few times, and Winky switched to orthodox a bit...but most if not all of them fought the one style as does 99% of boxers. The true switch hitter is very very rare.

You say at the top level you should be able to fight both styles, please name me 10 "top level" guys who fight both styles then. Take out Andre Dirrell and Terence Crawford and I'm struggling to think of any current fighters off the top of my head.

Not all fight, but you have to be able to switch it! Conlan did it very well in WC

efb

A learned trait can be as good as w natural one- ask Johnny Wilkinson

Andre 3000

efb wrote: »

Not all fight, but you have to be able to switch it! Conlan did it very well in WC

No you don't. In fact very few boxers switched or switch, as seen by you failing to name even 10 switch hitters that I asked of you. Do they exist? Of course...I named a few already. In fact it can prove very valuable. Crawford uses it very well when needed. I think it was against Gamboa where he basically went to southpaw and it turned the fight for him. But is it necessary? Not at all. The number of guys who actually switch stance is very very little. Name the top 20 boxers of all time off the top of your head, maybe one switch hit regularly...and one out of twenty is at a push.

Guys like Morales and Cotto used it for a fight or two but always stayed true to their original stance. I think I recall Floyd switching to southpaw for maybe one round once upon a time but the fact is hardly anyone switch hits any more. Hagler was obviously known for it. Crawford and Dirrell use it a lot. To say you need to be able to switch it up is bullsh*t. If that was the case, orthodox fighters would just fight their southpaw opponents in southpaw for the whole fight.

efb

Andre 3000 wrote: »

No you don't. In fact very few boxers switched or switch, as seen by you failing to name even 10 switch hitters that I asked of you. Do they exist? Of course...I named a few already. In fact it can prove very valuable. Crawford uses it very well when needed. I think it was against Gamboa where he basically went to southpaw and it turned the fight for him. But is it necessary? Not at all. The number of guys who actually switch stance is very very little. Name the top 20 boxers of all time off the top of your head, maybe one switch hit regularly...and one out of twenty is at a push.

Guys like Morales and Cotto used it for a fight or two but always stayed true to their original stance. I think I recall Floyd switching to southpaw for maybe one round once upon a time but the fact is hardly anyone switch hits any more. Hagler was obviously known for it. Crawford and Dirrell use it a lot. To say you need to be able to switch it up is bullsh*t. If that was the case, orthodox fighters would just fight their southpaw opponents in southpaw for the whole fight.

You don't have to fight Southpaw to beat a southpaw

Andre 3000

efb wrote: »

You don't have to fight Southpaw to beat a southpaw

Of course not, but it's very very awkward to fight a southpaw as an orthodox fighter. But you said every guy should be able to switch it up. If that was the case, those orthodox fighters would more than likely switch to southpaw to fight their southpaw opponent as it's easier to fight a southpaw being a southpaw yourself. But of course, very few people can switch it up and preserve their ability....something you said all top guys should be able to do, but they don't. Floyd was struggling with Judah for a few rounds...did he switch to southpaw? No, because he's not a good southpaw...at all. He stayed true to his natural stance and ultimately won in a dominant manner.

walshb

Somewhat similar analogy. Should all top soccer players be able to switch feet when shooting and dribbling? Yes, but don't expect close to equal results. I know one snooker player who can switch with actual success. I know of no golfers or darts players who can. I know of no tennis players who can switch hands-stance and have similar or equal success-ability.

This assertion that elite boxers should be able to switch and implying that they should have somewhat similar success-ability is complete bull.

Joe_ Public

efb wrote: »

A learned trait can be as good as w natural one- ask Johnny Wilkinson

Was Jonny Wilkinson born ambidextrous or did he become two-footed by practice alone? I think the former but could be wrong.

efb

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Was Jonny Wilkinson born ambidextrous or did he become two-footed by practice alone? I think the former but could be wrong.

His kicking was a learned trait from years of practice

Joe_ Public

efb wrote: »

His kicking was a learned trait from years of practice

Yes I understand his obsessive practice techniques, but what I'm asking is whether it was through practice he became equally adept with both feet or he was just born that way. I believe the latter, although he mostly favoured his left foot.

walshb

Ambidexterity has layers to it. I am technically ambidexterous. Not 50-50. I'd say 65-35 right dominant. Johnny Wilkinson is good off both feet. So are many ball players. But you can bet he is more adept and natural and comfortable off one side.

Plus, ambidexterity is more a natural born trait. Sure, you can practice to become more ambidexterous, but the truly ambidextrous people are likely born so. I think I could put in hours of orthodox practice as regards boxing but I'd never reach a comfortable level like being a southpaw. Similar to putting hours of practice to kick-dribble with my left foot or write with my left hand. I am sure I'd see improvements, but never equal to my dominant and natural side.

Ronnie in snooker is probably the best example of being very close to being 50-50 off both wings. But if you watch him you can still see he is better right handed. More fluid and more cue control.

Joe_ Public

That could mean that Wilkinson was born fully ambidextrous, but then chose to favour one side which then became his stronger side, which would make sense when you are a penalty taker. I read someplace where a tiny fraction of people are born ambidextrous, less than 1 per cent, but that the representation in sport well exceeds that. Not all that surprising given the benefits of it obviously.

Same goes for Ronnie. He's better right-handed because that's the hand he favoured from the start so of course it's going to be his better one. He did once famously play a match left-handed and won.

I honestly don't know how it relates to boxing, but it's accurate to say that no amount of practice is likely to make your less dominant side equal or superior to your stronger side. Unless, perhaps, it's something you start addressing in your formative years, like at 4, 5 or 6, but how many kids ever do that or have parents or coaches who will encourage them to do it? A few probably, but not many. The switch hitter in baseball is the archetype of the species, those guys can write their own cheques when it comes to signing contracts.

The Pheasant2

Leftie southpaw here - must say it's heartening to see the difficulty we apparently cause! :P

I always wondered what the story was with Joe Frazier and his famed left hook - was he a left handed orthodox fighter or is just happenstance his strongest punch was with his weak hand?

TheGlitchKing

Manny lost the Mayweather fight because he's an orthodox using south paw. He's damn good at what he does but it offset his balance, made him a wild swinger. If they have a rematch Manny should focus on fighting in his natural stance. Mayweather feeds on fighters who are off balance. An orthodox fighter using south paw will naturally need to put his punching power in the back leg. It's their catapult. Every time you throw a punch you need to use that back leg as your catapult. For an orthodoxy your back leg is your right leg, it's naturally stronger and holds your balance. Switch legs and it upsets your balance. It's your base. You might think you're tricking your opponent by switching stances but if your base isn't balanced and secure then your overall fighting style won't be either. Mayweather feeds on people who don't understand the simple difference balance can make. Find your balance.

walshb

TheGlitchKing wrote: »

Manny lost the Mayweather fight because he's an orthodox using south paw. He's damn good at what he does but it offset his balance, made him a wild swinger. If they have a rematch Manny should focus on fighting in his natural stance. Mayweather feeds on fighters who are off balance. An orthodox fighter using south paw will naturally need to put his punching power in the back leg. It's their catapult. Every time you throw a punch you need to use that back leg as your catapult. For an orthodoxy your back leg is your right leg, it's naturally stronger and holds your balance. Switch legs and it upsets your balance. It's your base. You might think you're tricking your opponent by switching stances but if your base isn't balanced and secure then your overall fighting style won't be either. Mayweather feeds on people who don't understand the simple difference balance can make. Find your balance.

Hold on. You are saying Manny should have fought, or should fight othodox vs. Mayweather? What was Freddie Roach thinking? In Manny's long career of many fights when exactly was he orthodox? Whatever chance Manny has as southpaw against Mayweather, he gets well beaten if he switches to a much less comfortable stance. Well beaten.

Manny is not an orthodox fighter using southpaw. He's a southpaw, end of.

It's about balance and feet and comfortableness more than the hand you write with or the foot you kick with.

Watch Hagler (right handed southpaw) as southpaw and Hagler as orthodox. He looks so off balance and uncomfortbale on his feet as orthodox.

On Manny's feet and balance as southpaw: He has fantastic feet and balance. Yes, he can be off balance when overextending during attacks. Big deal. His feet and coorodination and balance when moving is beautiful. Not a hope he replicates this by turning orthodox. He is a born southpaw.