Married in US, valid in Ireland?

Kai123

Hey,

I know this was asked not to long ago, but I've some other queries in relation to it.

Me and my ex got married in Nevada and have a marriage certificate. I always thought this was not valid in Ireland, since you need to at least get legally married in a registry office.

I believe now this is not the case. If we both plan to marry again, would this be considered polygamy? Is the marriage registered in Nevada not shared on some international marriage database?

If anyone can shed light on this it will take a weight off my mind!

lazeedaisy

I know several people who were married in Vegas, Barbados and the Dominican Republic. Only one couple registered their marraige when they got home, the others never bothered, the other two just called it a day and walked away, never divorced. We're told all kinds of things, as you will soon find out. This may help...

https://www.dfa.ie/travel/our-services/marriage-and-civil-partnership-abroad/

This is and old thread... May be relevant

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055824316

Kai123

I read that court case.

Eh...I'll just assume the marriage is only known in Nevada and keep quiet about it!

I believe she is marrying soon, so I don't think its right to try and start anything now divorce-wise, or maybe its time to book that flight to Reno.

MarieOC

I got married in NYC and didn't have to do anything to register it here. According to the dept of foreign affairs as long as the marriage is registered where it took place it doesn't have to be registered in Ireland.

https://www.dfa.ie/travel/our-services/marriage-and-civil-partnership-abroad/

Kai123

MarieOC wrote: »

I got married in NYC and didn't have to do anything to register it here. According to the dept of foreign affairs as long as the marriage is registered where it took place it doesn't have to be registered in Ireland.

https://www.dfa.ie/travel/our-services/marriage-and-civil-partnership-abroad/

How does this work if one of us gets married again?

Is it time to talk to a professional? What if we get divorced, would I have to split my earnings and pay maintenance?

nikkibikki

Kai123 wrote:

How does this work if one of us gets married again?

I'd guess there's probably a question asked on the marriage registration form asking if either party has ever been married before either in Ireland or another jurisdiction. If she's lied on hers, that's on her but I'd be getting advice from my solicitor if I were you on the potential pitfalls of not getting the marriage dissolved.

MarieOC

Kai123 wrote: »

How does this work if one of us gets married again?

Is it time to talk to a professional? What if we get divorced, would I have to split my earnings and pay maintenance?

I'd say it's time to get a professional involved. I know nothing about the divorce side of it, just that as far as I know you're legally married here

lazeedaisy

I checked it out for my brother who married in Vegas, i was told He was legally married in Vegas only, and Because he never registered the marraige in Ireland there was no record, bt f was ever to go to Vegas he was legally married.

Solicitor said just stay away, and forget it ever happenned, mind you that was a few years ago now.

nikkibikki

lazeedaisy wrote:

I checked it out for my brother who married in Vegas, i was told He was legally married in Vegas only, and Because he never registered the marraige in Ireland there was no record, bt f was ever to go to Vegas he was legally married.

lazeedaisy wrote:

Solicitor said just stay away, and forget it ever happenned, mind you that was a few years ago now.

Not saying Friends is an ideal legal guide but when Ross and Rachel drunkenly got married in Vegas, their marriage was still legal in New York and they either got it annulled or they had to divorce. They've probably gotten married again since!

Get your own legal advice OP. In writing!

Kai123

lazeedaisy wrote: »

I checked it out for my brother who married in Vegas, i was told He was legally married in Vegas only, and Because he never registered the marraige in Ireland there was no record, bt f was ever to go to Vegas he was legally married.

Solicitor said just stay away, and forget it ever happenned, mind you that was a few years ago now.

This is what I was told previously.

It might just boil down to us both keeping quiet. She is re-marrying and is pregnant with her boyfriends child which will be registered in Ireland.

I'm terrified of working hard to build a life and years town the line having to start paying maintenance if it came to that. Like I said we are great friends, and we have discussed this and agreed to forget about it.

Feck it, I might as well be honest with her. I plan on moving to the UK at some point and she will be here with her family. I guess at that point this wont be worth worrying about.

amdublin

lazeedaisy wrote: »

I checked it out for my brother who married in Vegas, i was told He was legally married in Vegas only, and Because he never registered the marraige in Ireland there was no record, bt f was ever to go to Vegas he was legally married.

Solicitor said just stay away, and forget it ever happenned, mind you that was a few years ago now.

In my opinion this is absolutely INCORRECT.


From citizens information
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/getting_married/getting_married_abroad.html
"
Registration of marriages abroad

Marriages of Irish citizens abroad are registered in the country where they occur. The General Register Office has no function in advising on, or the registration of marriages of Irish citizens that take place abroad. Marriages that take place outside the state are not normally registered in Ireland.
Your foreign marriage certificate will usually be accepted for official purposes in Ireland where you need to show evidence that you are married. If the certificate is in a foreign language, you must provide an official translation or a translation from a recognised translation agency."


Seriously, do people think that if you get married in Spain or France they are not legal either?

amdublin

Kai123 wrote: »

This is what I was told previously.

It might just boil down to us both keeping quiet. She is re-marrying and is pregnant with her boyfriends child which will be registered in Ireland.

I'm terrified of working hard to build a life and years town the line having to start paying maintenance if it came to that. Like I said we are great friends, and we have discussed this and agreed to forget about it.

Feck it, I might as well be honest with her. I plan on moving to the UK at some point and she will be here with her family. I guess at that point this wont be worth worrying about.

In my opinion you are married to your wife, and she is married to you. What she is doing is illegal in my opinion.


If I were you I'd be getting legal advice not asking on a message board. If I were her (planning on getting married AGAIN when she is still married) I'd be definitely getting legal advice.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/getting_married/getting_married_abroad.html

mrs vimes

Hi OP,

This isn't just a Las Vegas thing really, there is nothing to stop a person who is married in Ireland or any other country getting married in a second country. They would, of course, have to declare that they were not married already, as does your wife.

I wouldn't do it though. I'd be terrified for the rest of my life that someone (my ex or someone else who knew about the first wedding) would decide to blackmail me. They could produce evidence of my marriage and when I couldn't produce evidence of it ending before the date of the second wedding then I could be charged with bigamy.

To my mind, maintenance is the least of your worries.

stickybookmark

amdublin wrote: »

In my opinion this is absolutely INCORRECT

Seriously, do people think that if you get married in Spain or France they are not legal either?

He's not saying that they are not legally married. He's saying that as long as the powers-that-be in Ireland aren't aware of the marriage that took place in the US, there's nothing to stop either of them marrying again in Ireland.

a) what's the correct thing to do from a legal standpoint
b)what people actually can get away with doing to save money & hassle

are two different things!

amdublin

stickybookmark wrote: »

He's not saying that they are not legally married. He's saying that as long as the powers-that-be in Ireland aren't aware of the marriage that took place in the US, there's nothing to stop either of them marrying again in Ireland.

a) what's the correct thing to do from a legal standpoint
b)what people actually can get away with doing to save money & hassle

are two different things!

True!


But I'd assume a solicitor would not advise you to break the law. And I'd assume people on boards shouldn't be advocating it either.


At the end of the day if you get married in Las Vegas you are legally married. Just because you have not told the Irish gov (which you don't have to!) does not mean you are any less married. I'd assume when people originally went to vegas/reno/Nevada/spain/France they didn't (or don't) go with the intention of "not being married really". You go with the intention of getting married legally. Which you are.

MarkR

I seem to recall being asked was I already married when I got married. I think it would come up!

seamus

Back in our early twenties, the boyfriend of a friend arrived back from a lads week away in Vegas with the news that he'd gotten completely wasted and married some random American girl in a wedding place. Said he couldn't remember a thing, and he and all his mates swore blind that no cheating took place, that it had all just been a bit of joke.

He was known for being a ridiculous drunk and his mates a pack of idiots, so she believed his story. One of his parents was an exceptionally well paid legal counsel and advised his son to just shred the cert and pretend it never happened. That would be easier than filing for annulment in the states.

Your case doesn't really sound the same. You have, for at least some period of time, lived and operated as a married couple. Whether you registered here or not doesn't really matter, it could cause some awkward moments and potentially legal issues later down the line.

What if (big what if) either of you won the lotto, and the ex decided to assert their right, as legal spouse, to a share of the winnings? That is a big can of worms that will be hanging over you.

(Yes, she did break up with him soon after )

amdublin

When getting married you will definitely be asked. And if you have been married before* you will be lying and breaking the law if you say No to this. (unless you've been divorced i.e. you answer Yes, Divorced now etc)




*Whether you were married in Ireland, in Las Vegas, in Spain, in France, wherever!

amdublin

seamus wrote: »

Back in our early twenties, the boyfriend of a friend arrived back from a lads week away in Vegas with the news that he'd gotten completely wasted and married some random girl in a wedding place. Said he couldn't remember a thing, and he and all his mates swore blind that no cheating took place, that it had all just been a bit of joke.

He was known for being a ridiculous drunk and his mates a pack of idiots, so she believed his story. One of his parents was an exceptionally well paid legal counsel and advised his son to just shred the cert and pretend it never happened. That would be easier than filing for annulment in the states.

(Yes, she did break up with him soon after )

Maybe they just got "married" in a chapel and the marriage "cert" was not actually legal.


To get married in LV you have to present yourself in the courthouse and apply for a marriage licence. Once you have your licence you cannot get married until (iirc) 12 hours later. It could even be 24 hours.


Negates that "drunk in vegas got married thing"


I'd bet that your friends "marriage" was genuinely not Legal.


*I don't know how Britney got "quickie" married in Vegas unless they were drunk, applied for licence and were still drunk 12 hours later...Or did they knock on the door of a judge and pay a lot of money for an emergency cert or something???

mrs vimes

According to http://www.clarkcountynv.gov/depts/clerk/services/pages/marriagelicenses.aspx there is no waiting period.

amdublin

I stand corrected mrsvimes. Thank you

I think what I was thinking was that Britney got married late at night /early morning whereas I think courthouse/licence place is 9-5.

I could be wrong on that also though!!!!

Magicmatilda

Just another point to think about.

Will you be telling any future wife about your current marraige?

Because if I was married to someone and found out that they had lied about such a big thing I would go mental. It would be the end of the relationship. Could you keep that secret from your wife for your whole life? Of course a future wife may be OK with it. But I donlt think I would be OK with marrying someone under the circumstances.

rainbowtrout

Kai123 wrote: »

How does this work if one of us gets married again?

Is it time to talk to a professional? What if we get divorced, would I have to split my earnings and pay maintenance?

No. There are divorces where couples split and go their own way. If there are no kids, no house in joint ownership, both out earning etc, it is possible to just split (probably like you have already done) and not make a claim on each other's income and assets.

In this case it would be in her best interests not to do so, so she wouldn't end up with a long and expensive divorce so she could get on with her wedding.

As others have said, down the line there could be an issue with a claim such as a lotto win or an inheritance.

Legally it probably doesn't affect you at the moment but she will be committing bigamy.

Also I believe there is some odd quirk in the law that means if a woman is married and has a child, her husband is automatically considered to be the father of the child (even if he isn't, as is the case with you).


This doesn't affect you as such, but does affect her boyfriend:

http://www.treoir.ie/target-fathers.php

What are my legal rights in respect of my child if I marry the mother of my child?
Provided that the mother was not legally married to someone else 10 months before the birth of the child, you automatically become a joint guardian of your child with the mother. You do not need to adopt your own child as it is from the marriage that your joint guardianship rights flow.

As you are still married, he can't automatically become a joint guardian of his own child. So it would appear that given the current situation that he would have to adopt his own child, and unless legislation has changed recently, to the best of my knowledge when a child is being adopted by a married couple, the birth mother has to give up her legal right as the birth mother and adopt as well.

It really is a minefield OP. None of these things have a direct effect on you right now, but there are a lot of implications for her.

MistyCheese

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Also I believe there is some odd quirk in the law that means if a woman is married and has a child, her husband is automatically considered to be the father of the child (even if he isn't, as is the case with you).

I believe as long as the parents names are on the childs birth cert there won't be a problem ie, Mary is married to Joe but her childs father is Bill. As long as Mary is on the birth cert as Mother and Bill is on the cert as Father there should be no problem with the fact that Mary is married to Joe. But I'm not 100% certain so I woould definately recomend checking this out officially.

Does your wifes fiancé know she is already married, OP? Because if it did come out that she was already married to you (and therefore not free to marry someone else) when she signs the licence with her new fella it would render their union null and void. She is playing a ridiculously stupid game. She would have none of the legal protections of marriage to the father of her child if it ever came out that the marriage was bigamous. Maybe it'll never come out but it's too big a risk. She's knowingly entering into a marriage that could instantly evaporate if it's exposed as invalid.

If you ever want to marry another girl in the future you'll have two options. Divorce your current wife or take the same risks she's taking by telling the same lies. I imagine it would be quite messy to divorce a woman who is married to someone else. It would probably be difficult for her to keep her first marriage a secret whilst in the process of a divorce from you. But again I would urge you to seek proper legal advice to be sure. In fact, you could well be in trouble if you admit a few years down the line that you knew your wife willingly broke the law and you said nothing.

rainbowtrout

MistyCheese wrote: »

I believe as long as the parents names are on the childs birth cert there won't be a problem ie, Mary is married to Joe but her childs father is Bill. As long as Mary is on the birth cert as Mother and Bill is on the cert as Father there should be no problem with the fact that Mary is married to Joe. But I'm not 100% certain so I woould definately recomend checking this out officially.

.

ya I should have probably said guardianship rather than father. Either way, it's still messy where the child is concerned.

amdublin

Magicmatilda wrote: »

Just another point to think about.

Will you be telling any future wife about your current marraige?

Because if I was married to someone and found out that they had lied about such a big thing I would go mental. It would be the end of the relationship. Could you keep that secret from your wife for your whole life? Of course a future wife may be OK with it. But I donlt think I would be OK with marrying someone under the circumstances.

I would agree with this.


The wedding and marriage happened. You cannot just say nothing and pretend it didn't. I am assuming family and friends know.


You can be guaranteed that if you say nothing to your future girlfriend/fiancé/wife someone is going to say it to them (maybe in passing/innocently but it is going to be said).
Or if you say it to them "but I'm not really married outside of Nevada" they are going to be like "eh you are, and I don't want to marry a bigamist".


I really think you need proper legal advice and need to get this sorted now - I'd assume that between the two of you, you need to organise a divorce, but I don't know what is involved in this or how much it will cost (if anything?).

Toots

OP definitely get legal advice on this. If a solicitor says you're in the clear then that's all good, but until then I'd treat it as though it was a proper wedding. Get clarification from someone who's qualified to advise on this, and don't just assume that it'll all be ok if nobody says anything - it'll save you a lot of hassle in the long run. (Also I'm shocked that your ex is being so laissez faire about it all in regards to her upcoming wedding; if it was me I'd want to be sure all the 'i's were dotted and 't's crossed rather than find out there was a problem somewhere down the line.)

Ms2011

My husband got married in Florida, he still had to seek a divorce here in Ireland before we were able to get married.

lazeedaisy

amdublin wrote: »

In my opinion this is absolutely INCORRECT.

I know the regulations have changed since we got the advice, I am happy to name the family law solicitors who I went to and paid for the advice. If its that ludicrous a suggestion, all I am saying is what my experience is,

Ross and Rachel were American citizens first off,

and there are a lot of these cases coming to light as a lot of irish people got married abroad between 1995 and 2003.

Anyway, in My opinion, I would get it in writing, like I did, you never know when you need it.

We have lots of photos of my brothers wedding, and I can tell you it was a real wedding!

amdublin

lazeedaisy wrote: »

We have lots of photos of my brothers wedding, and I can tell you it was a real wedding![/QUOTE]

I know! That's my point. I am shocked that a solicitor told him/you to "forget it ever happened". That's crazy.


I don't think there has ever been a change in regulation. A Las Vegas marriage has always been a legal marriage. To get married to someone else after previously getting married in Las Vegas is committing bigamy. In my opinion.


Agree with all posters (and second) saying get legal advice!

Fagashlil

I got married in the carribean and whilst I didn't have to register it here, it was recognised and in order to remarry I had to prove a valid divorce. (Which luckily we had registered in his home country and it only requires 6 months for a divorce )

The_Bot

There is only one right answer to your question OP, seek professional legal advice.

Put it this way, if your US marriage is recognised as valid in Ireland (which I think it is), you chose just to ignore it and want to remarry, where does that leave your new "wife"?

If you are already legally married is your second marriage even legal in Irish law? No matter how real it is to you, will Irish law recognise it? This is a serious question and has real consequences. Will Irish law recognise your new wife as your next in kin? Will beneficial tax laws on gifts and inheritances apply? What if you were to die intestate? Which "wife" would get your assets?

I'm not a lawyer and I don't know the answers to these questions but if you were to remarry would you want those kinds of legal questions hanging over you and the status of your new wife?

Talk to an expert and see what needs to be done. I think it's too risky not to.

Peregrinus

Yup, the real problem is not that the OP might get some kind of claim from his first wife. The problem is that, if he marries without sorting this out, his second marriage is legally void. Apart from the fact that it would be a sh!tty think to do to your second wife, if you marry bigamously while allowing your partner to think that they are entering into a valid marriage, that's one of the occasions on which they do prosecute for bigamy.

The OP's first wife is in the same position. I don't know what the relationship between him and her is at this point, but he really needs to make sure she understands the situation. Her second marriage will in all likelihood be void in Ireland, and an absolute minimum requirement for basic human decency is that she discloses this to her partner and they decide what to do about it.

Spanish Eyes

Is bigamy a crime here

seamus

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Is bigamy a crime here

According to wiki, yes it is, it's still covered by those British laws from the ninteenth century.

Really you'd want to be more concerned about the laws around marriage registration which make it an offence to make false declarations on your marriage registration form.

Up to €10k fine and/or 5 years in the clink.

Spanish Eyes

seamus wrote: »

According to wiki, yes it is, it's still covered by those British laws from the ninteenth century.

Really you'd want to be more concerned about the laws around marriage registration which make it an offence to make false declarations on your marriage registration form.

Up to €10k fine and/or 5 years in the clink.

TBH I'd say it's something that happens now and then. If there is no global registry that can be accessed by the Irish Registrar, so well, who knew!

A declaration is just that, but what proof is needed? Seems wide open to false declarations to me. But I am probably overthinking it now! Only redress is the abandoned spouse taking the other spouse to the cleaners.

Although I know the vast majority would never even think of doing something inherently dishonest like this. But some will. And do, for various reasons. Join the dots.

Could you ever relax if you did this.

Peregrinus

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

TBH I'd say it's something that happens now and then. If there is no global registry that can be accessed by the Irish Registrar, so well, who knew! . . .

The usual circumstance in which this comes to light is when the second relationship breaks down, and the parties end up in court arguing over the spoils. At that point there'll be an investigation into the facts of the marriage, and the Awful Truth is likely to emerge. Often it's in the interests of one party that it should emerge.

The other circumstance in which it comes to light is when the bigamist dies, and there's a squabble over who is entitled to the spouse's legal right/the widow's pension/practically anything, really. Of course, at that point the bigamist can't be prosecuted. But a large chunk of his or her estate can be swallowed up in the legal squabbles, to the detriment of both spouses, and any other dependents who may be left.

I haven't been involved in many cases of this kind, but I have been involved in a couple. Really, this is not what you want to do to your nearest and dearest.

Seriously, you don't want this. The reasons that you want to marry are the very reasons why you don't want your marriage to be void. It's a pain, but you need to sort this out.

ceadaoin.

amdublin wrote: »

I stand corrected mrsvimes. Thank you

I think what I was thinking was that Britney got married late at night /early morning whereas I think courthouse/licence place is 9-5.

I could be wrong on that also though!!!!

The licensing office is open until from 8am to midnight every day. So you could go there at night hammered. You'd think the extra step would give you time to reconsider getting married to a stranger but clearly not in some cases!

I got married in vegas and even though my husband put that he was divorced on the application forms they never ask to see his divorce papers in the licensing place. I'm sure vegas has produced many bigamous marriages!

OP, Its not worth the hassle if it does come to light in the future. It needs to be sorted.