And now a thread on bus shelters... design insight from Paris

noelfirl

Apologies, thread title a bit OTT, but thought it worth sharing with fellow transport nerds something quite nice I encountered a few weeks back in the field of bus stop design from the city of Light. They're rolling out a standard stop shelter that is refined in terms of street furniture and has some nifty forward thinking features:

http://www.jcdecaux.com/en/Newsroom/Press-Releases/2015/Paris-unveils-its-new-bus-shelter

Paris is replacing its 2,000 bus shelters for the first time in 15 years. Parisians and visitors will benefit from the innovative, eco-friendly and connected street furniture.

The design is, as you would expect, very elegant and quite ergonomic, with a big roof covering a large circulation space, but with less in the way of bulky structure. They can be configured in multiple ways to provide front, back and wrap around seating, including seating with armrests.

Real time information is provided both on the 'signal mast' in the form of a bright white LED display of minutes, for each route, and on a quite nicely contrasted black-on-white display inside the shelter. The mast display is designed to be readable from a distance as you approach the stop.

One side of the information panel of the shelter provides transport information, the other acting as a wayfinder map for the locality. It is intended that 100 of these panels will be touch screen interactive directories, with various new digital services/apps provided and added on a competitive basis. E.g. users will be able to calculate and display transport itineraries, get information on activities and public facilities locally, see the status of local Velib stations, etc.





On the functional side, all shelters will be equipped with displays that can be illuminated with the touch of a button (at night), and tactile route numbers for visually impaired people. Pushing a button next to the route number on the side of the shelter will announce the number of minutes until that service arrives. Perhaps most appreciated in the new device laden world, they will have USB ports for charging devices:



All in all, a step away from a solitary pole with flag.

Cookie_Monster

It's a bit hard to tell but in that last set of pics, say, are the 46 and 75 fixed numbers or do they auto-update?
Looks like there is a X mins to next bus under the numbers

100 roofs fitted with solar panels (helping to save energy) and 50 with greenery planted on them;

That's a good idea

noelfirl

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It's a bit hard to tell but in that last set of pics, say, are the 46 and 75 fixed numbers or do they auto-update?
Looks like there is a X mins to next bus under the numbers

Fixed numbers. One for each route that calls at the stop, with an individual LED underneath with the time until next bus in mins.

Muahahaha

It always amazes me how few bus shelters there are in Dublin, especially given our climate. I know in some areas its an issue of footpath widths but that reason doesn't wash in an a lot of cases. It just seems the powers that be have decided we can't have them for whatever reasons, cost, vandalism, etc.

bk

Muahahaha wrote: »

It always amazes me how few bus shelters there are in Dublin, especially given our climate. I know in some areas its an issue of footpath widths but that reason doesn't wash in an a lot of cases. It just seems the powers that be have decided we can't have them for whatever reasons, cost, vandalism, etc.

The reason is commercial disagreements between Dublin Bus and Dublin City Council.

Until recently bus stops were owned and maintained by Dublin Bus and DB made all the money from the advertising on the stops.

Dublin City Council makes advertising money from all other on-street sources and wasn't happy with DB cutting into this with the ads on theri bus shelters, so DCC banned those bus shelters.

This issue should becoming to an end soon as the NTA is now taking control of all bus stops and are planning to introduce bus shelters where practical in city center locations.

bk

I have to say great design of these new shelters and stops.

I like how they have next bus time screens both inside the shelter and viewable at a distance.

Some of the RTPI signs put up recently are incredibly stupid as you can't see the RTPI sign from under the shelter!!!!

To be honest, RTPI could have been rolled out easier if it had been properly integrated with new bus shelters. If they placed solar panels on the shelter roofs, then the RTPI screens could have been powered from that rather then requiring expensive electrical work to run power to the RTPI poles and a separate pole for the RTPI screen.

I also like that the new French bus stops have a button to announce the time of the next upcoming bus for the hard of sight, nice touch.

Louche Lad

I do like the shaping of the bus shelter roofs - stylish, not boring rectangles.

Qualitymark

Very tasteful, though perhaps a little draughty?

AngryLips

I think possibly these designs are too stylised and will look dated quite quickly. Something a bit more utilitarian would work better IMO

Geuze

Are there names for every bus stop in Dublin?

If so, the name should be clearly signed/posted on the shelter and pole.

LXFlyer

Geuze wrote: »

Are there names for every bus stop in Dublin?

If so, the name should be clearly signed/posted on the shelter and pole.

You asked this before and I answered you before.


Yes there are.


Look at the timetable panel on any bus shelter and you will see the bus stop address.


The current bus stop poles don't have enough room for that information, but that will change when the new NTA bus stops are rolled out.

munchkin_utd

AngryLips wrote: »

I think possibly these designs are too stylised and will look dated quite quickly. Something a bit more utilitarian would work better IMO

I dont know, the canopy reminds me of a classical 1930s type of design

somewhat like this :


or maybe this (from the 1930s in Denmark):

Qualitymark

Geuze wrote: »

Are there names for every bus stop in Dublin?

If so, the name should be clearly signed/posted on the shelter and pole.

There are numbers on every stop, which you can use on the Dublin Bus app and the nifty privately-produced version Dublin Buster. Strangely, they're not announced along with the road names, and a bus driver told me that tourists ask for Stop Number 2378 and he hasn't a bull's notion where it is, which seems bad planning.

LXFlyer

Qualitymark wrote: »

There are numbers on every stop, which you can use on the Dublin Bus app and the nifty privately-produced version Dublin Buster. Strangely, they're not announced along with the road names, and a bus driver told me that tourists ask for Stop Number 2378 and he hasn't a bull's notion where it is, which seems bad planning.

There are over 7,500 bus stops in Dublin - how would anyone expect a driver to remember where they all are by number?

I've never come across any public transport system where they call out stop numbers - it's always stop names. For one thing - there simply wouldn't be time to do it due to the requirement of the Official Languages Act to announce them in Irish and English. As it is they only announce one line of the stop name due to the time pressures.

Qualitymark

lxflyer wrote: »

There are over 7,500 bus stops in Dublin - how would anyone expect a driver to remember where they all are by number?

I've never come across any public transport system where they call out stop numbers - it's always stop names. For one thing - there simply wouldn't be time to do it due to the requirement of the Official Languages Act to announce them in Irish and English. As it is they only announce one line of the stop name due to the time pressures.

True, and they're often a little freehand with the Irish version…

Edit - I like these swoopy Elvis's-quiff-style shelters. I doubt they'll look old-fashioned any more than the lovely Metropolitain signs from the 1900s do.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

There are over 7,500 bus stops in Dublin - how would anyone expect a driver to remember where they all are by number?

I've never come across any public transport system where they call out stop numbers - it's always stop names. For one thing - there simply wouldn't be time to do it due to the requirement of the Official Languages Act to announce them in Irish and English. As it is they only announce one line of the stop name due to the time pressures.

Well If Dublin Bus used the LED screens for next stop info, like they do in Amsterdam, rather then the stupid current screens, then they could display far more information like so:

Route 16 - Dublin Airport - Stopping
Stop 278 - O'Connell St - Arriving
Stop 10 - Parnell Square - 4 mins
Stop 12 - Dorset St, Josephs Parade - 7 mins
Stop 15 - Dorest St, Eccles Place - 9 mins

Far more info available at a glance, obviously it would switch between Irish and English.

Disappointingly I saw these sort of screens in Amsterdam, 2 years before Dublin Bus started introducing the already outdated LED panels. Very handy for tourists and would be more useful here when you consider how close stops are together in Ireland and the need to switch between languages and our use of single door double deckers.

I've regularly seen the bus fly by stops before the screen even had a change to switch to English resulting in tourists running down the stairs with luggage and shouting at the driver! An Amsterdam style screen would give people far more notice of their upcoming stops and more time to safely make their way downstairs before the stop.

Muahahaha

bk wrote: »

The reason is commercial disagreements between Dublin Bus and Dublin City Council.

Until recently bus stops were owned and maintained by Dublin Bus and DB made all the money from the advertising on the stops.

Dublin City Council makes advertising money from all other on-street sources and wasn't happy with DB cutting into this with the ads on theri bus shelters, so DCC banned those bus shelters.

This issue should becoming to an end soon as the NTA is now taking control of all bus stops and are planning to introduce bus shelters where practical in city center locations.

Isn't it amazing how two arms of the State can both act in their own self interest and it is the public who loses out? Unreal, at least it is getting sorted soon though so I suppose thats something.

alcaline

lxflyer wrote: »

There are over 7,500 bus stops in Dublin - how would anyone expect a driver to remember where they all are by number?

You would be surprised, many a passenger has blown a fuse when i tell them i don't know where a numbered stop is.
"What do you mean you don't know where stop 12345 is, your supposed to be a effing bus driver, your effing useless , you are ................"

Why not use the wifi on the bus and Google maps on their smart phone, no need to go near the driver.

Qualitymark

alcaline wrote: »

You would be surprised, many a passenger has blown a fuse when i tell them i don't know where a numbered stop is.
"What do you mean you don't know where stop 12345 is, your supposed to be a effing bus driver, your effing useless , you are ................"

Why not use the wifi on the bus and Google maps on their smart phone, no need to go near the driver.

Used to be that the same driver covered the same route, and would know most of the passengers, and know the stops…

alcaline

Qualitymark wrote: »

Used to be that the same driver covered the same route, and would know most of the passengers, and know the stops…

Something strange happened when he celtic tiger was born, whole areas just vanished, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who now lives in Stillorgan, its all Blackrock now. Sallynogging is disappearing at at fast rate and being replaced by Upper Glenageary. Ballsbridge is expanding at a fast rate, soon it will be sharing a border with Blackrock. i have heard similar things are happening all over the greater Dublin Area.
These changes are kept secret from drivers, if we where kept informed we might be able to better help lost passengers.

Qualitymark

Hardles Crosst is gone too. Part is in Rawthgawr, part in Turrenyurr, part in Kenilworth (admittedly, this name just disappeared and reappeared). None is in Kimmage.

tobsey

Qualitymark wrote: »

Used to be that the same driver covered the same route, and would know most of the passengers, and know the stops…

Still the case on my route. 142 from Portmarnock each morning and reverse in the evening. Don't know the drivers by name but it's the same 5 or 6 faces every day.

BastardFace

I don't know how this bus stop can even be considered safe! Would welcome the new bus shelters if they were able to widen the pedestrian area.

alcaline

BastardFace wrote: »

I don't know how this bus stop can even be considered safe! Would welcome the new bus shelters if they were able to widen the pedestrian area.

Up the road from Lambs cross it had to have been approved by the Garda as a safe stop, DB requested a stop on a section of road and the Garda then check it out and pick the spot, believe its not the Garda anymore who pick the spot but the local council.

BastardFace

alcaline wrote: »

Up the road from Lambs cross it had to have been approved by the Garda as a safe stop, DB requested a stop on a section of road and the Garda then check it out and pick the spot, believe its not the Garda anymore who pick the spot but the local council.

Looks like they didn't consider wheel-chair users anyway. Unless they are supposed to fold up their chair and sit at the bus stop.

LXFlyer

BastardFace wrote: »

I don't know how this bus stop can even be considered safe! Would welcome the new bus shelters if they were able to widen the pedestrian area.

BastardFace wrote: »

Looks like they didn't consider wheel-chair users anyway. Unless they are supposed to fold up their chair and sit at the bus stop.

That stop has been in place since the year dot on the 44b (50-60 years plus). It would have preceded any need for approval of locations and probably has grandfather rights.

I've said it before, a full safety audit really is needed of every bus stop and whatever remedial action is needed taken, and then we might also see centre door operation become the norm.

alcaline

lxflyer wrote: »

That stop has been in place since the year dot on the 44b (50-60 years plus). It would have preceded any need for approval of locations and probably has grandfather rights.

I've said it before, a full safety audit really is needed of every bus stop and whatever remedial action is needed taken, and then we might also see centre door operation become the norm.

The NTA did not really think it through when they bought double door buses and want passengers to exit from the middle doors. Most stops are not suitably for the use of middle doors, i suppose it ticks a box on a form in a office somewhere so job done as far as thats concerned.

Cookie_Monster

alcaline wrote: »

The NTA did not really think it through when they bought double door buses and want passengers to exit from the middle doors. Most stops are not suitably for the use of middle doors, i suppose it ticks a box on a form in a office somewhere so job done as far as thats concerned.

what makes a stop unsuitable in Dublin that doesn't in Paris or London or Berlin?
I've been on 2 and 3 door buses in London recently. They open the doors everywhere, regardless of how they are pulled in and there are no issues with people stepping onto the curb or road or whatever.

Its purely mythical reasoning re-enforced with ridiculous liability laws behind non proper usage in Dublin, that's all.

alcaline

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what makes a stop unsuitable in Dublin that doesn't in Paris or London or Berlin?
I've been on 2 and 3 door buses in London recently. They open the doors everywhere, regardless of how they are pulled in and there are no issues with people stepping onto the curb or road or whatever.

Its purely mythical reasoning re-enforced with ridiculous liability laws behind non proper usage in Dublin, that's all.

Its the law of the land thats the problem, fall and get injured at front door you sue DB, fall and get injured at middle doors sue the driver.
Naturally some transport enthusiast will now come along and say this is not true.

Cookie_Monster

alcaline wrote: »

Its the law of the land thats the problem, fall and get injured at front door you sue DB, fall and get injured at middle doors sue the driver.

that's exactly what I said

Carawaystick

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what makes a stop unsuitable in Dublin that doesn't in Paris or London or Berlin?

Ditches.
No paths to alight onto
Different legal systems

Cookie_Monster

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ditches.

none of them anywhere in other cities?

Carawaystick wrote: »

No paths to alight onto

as per above

Carawaystick wrote: »

Different legal systems

A valid point and one that needs addressing but something in the short term at least, probably won't be.

Carawaystick

You'ld be hard pressed to find any ditch in Paris, let alone one at a bus stop. Same for a stop not on a path.

dubscottie

Qualitymark wrote: »

Hardles Crosst is gone too. Part is in Rawthgawr, part in Turrenyurr, part in Kenilworth (admittedly, this name just disappeared and reappeared). None is in Kimmage.

What??

I hope you were drunk whilst typing..

Harolds Cross, Rathgar, And Terenure.

And its always been that way.. The Opel garage on Harolds cross Rd is 6W the otherside (the Spar) is Dublin 6. Brighton Square is Terenure but 100 yrds down the road is Rathgar.

What gets on my goat is that companies wont get our address right.. Its NOT xxx D6 Terenure.. mail goes to the KCR sorting office then when it should be xxx D6 Rathgar and go to our local sorting office in Rathmines..

Kenilworth Sq is Rathmines. Etc..

Ask any postman. Nothing Celtic tiger about it..

But I love drivers that still know the classic cinema stop..

bk

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ditches.
No paths to alight onto
Different legal systems

Uk has the same legal system * and compo culture as Ireland and yet I've been on triple door buses in London that left people off at all sorts of terrible stops that are no different then Dublin.

I've also seen drivers leave people off the front door in Dublin in highly dangerous manner. For example, frequently double parked at the 16 stop on Westmoreland St.

* The Irish legal system is literally an extension of the UK "common-law" legal system. Most of our laws were actually created under the UK legal system and Irish judges still look to the UK for precedence (persuasive, but not binding) and vice versa.

They should place door open buttons on the rear doors, like they do in most European countries, thus placing more responsibility on the passenger.