Should I learn to drive again? - Malahide Roundabout, Swords

Wicked131

Good evening everyone,

Yesterday I had a collision on Malahide roundabout, I was going from Pavilions and turning right towards Dublin, the other car was driving from Malahide road towards Pavilions.

I was on the right (inner) lane, the other car was on the left (outer) lane, we met just when I was trying to exit the roundabout and go straight.

Who's fault is it?

I'm 1000% sure it wasn't my fault, I have driving licence for years, but the other guy said he had the right to turn right from a left lane (sic!).

Am I missing anything?

I'm the green car on the pic.

Stheno

I live in Swords and on that roundabout I'd automatically have gone into the left hand lane after hitting the malahide junction on the roundabout if I was heading as you were.

Were you indicating to go left?
And were both of you on the roundabout at the same time?

Afaik rules of the road are that you should be in the left hand lane approaching your exit.

endacl

Unless it's marked otherwise, you can take the second exit from the right hand lane. This doesn't absolve you from observation though. Even if the other driver was 100% wrong in terms if road position, you did cross his lane resulting in the collision.

Fwiw, I'd only take the inside lane if taking exit 3. Avoids the above result.

gipi

endacl wrote: »

Unless it's marked otherwise, you can take the second exit from the right hand lane. This doesn't absolve you from observation though. Even if the other driver was 100% wrong in terms if road position, you did cross his lane resulting in the collision.

Fwiw, I'd only take the inside lane if taking exit 3. Avoids the above result.

Was the op not taking the 4th exit (it's a 5 pointed roundabout)? The other driver was also passing more than 2 exits, by the looks of it, so should have been in the right /inside lane?

Stheno

endacl wrote: »

Unless it's marked otherwise, you can take the second exit from the right hand lane. This doesn't absolve you from observation though. Even if the other driver was 100% wrong in terms if road position, you did cross his lane resulting in the collision.

Fwiw, I'd only take the inside lane if taking exit 3. Avoids the above result.

The other complication with this is that the turn to go towards Pavilions (where the red car is going) changes from two to three lanes.

Anytime I am coming from Malahide, I stay on the right hand lane.

Raised Eyebrow

I travel that route often and would agree with Stheno and would always get into the right lane going from Malahide to Pavillions so IMO the other driver was out of position but the fact that you hit him is a problem unfortunately. It is an awful roundabout to be fair.

Wicked131

Stheno wrote: »

I live in Swords and on that roundabout I'd automatically have gone into the left hand lane after hitting the malahide junction on the roundabout if I was heading as you were.

Were you indicating to go left?
And were both of you on the roundabout at the same time?

Afaik rules of the road are that you should be in the left hand lane approaching your exit.

I was indicating to go left once I reached the center of the roundabout indeed.

I was at the roundabout before he entered it.

endacl wrote: »

Unless it's marked otherwise, you can take the second exit from the right hand lane. This doesn't absolve you from observation though. Even if the other driver was 100% wrong in terms if road position, you did cross his lane resulting in the collision.

Fwiw, I'd only take the inside lane if taking exit 3. Avoids the above result.

That's what I was learnt that you can always go straight from the right hand lane.

Into The Blue

50/50 for lack of observation. You should not have merged into his lane with him in it, and he should have slowed once he saw your indication/lane movement.

Into The Blue

Wicked131 wrote: »

that's what I was learnt that you can always go straight from the right hand lane.

Not if a car is going to hit you if you do.

Wicked131

Into The Blue wrote: »

50/50 for lack of observation. You should not have merged into his lane with him in it, and he should have slowed once he saw your indication/lane movement.

I'm so confused now guys, I thought it's black and white, rule I always followed is that under any circumstances you cannot turn right from a left lane.

Into The Blue

Wicked131 wrote: »

I'm so confused now guys, I thought it's black and white, rule I always followed is that under any circumstances you cannot turn right from a left lane.

Just my thinking on it, someone will be along to tell me I'm wrong!! Once everyone walked away unhurt, let the insurance companies sort it..

cantdecide

First day of learning to drive, Dad told me this; rule #1; don't hit anything.

I feel the most pertinent rule broken here is that the 'other' car didn't give way to traffic on the right and proceeded to speed up and undercut the OP who should have been entitled to maneuver unencumbered by other traffic. I think the OP is guilty of not recognising what was going on and handling the other car correctly thus compounding things.

In short, no matter how rude or careless the other driver was being, the OP needed to be in greater control of the situation and observation when changing lane.

Wicked131

So guys who's fault was it then?

Stheno

Wicked131 wrote: »

So guys who's fault was it then?

Fifty fifty both of you were in the wrong lanes imo.

Haznat

I don't think the op was in the wrong lane. In fact it's an issue on two lane roundabouts where everyone wants to stay in the left hand lane regardless of where they want to exit which makes it more difficult for people in the right hand lane to exit safely.

thebiglad

Green car should have merged to the left lane when passing the second exit (ensuring it was clear of course).

Red car following local practice but should not have entered the roundabout seeing the red car coming round unless and until they were sure what they were doing.

I know this roundabout and the inside lane on the side of the red car does tend to clog up as there are traffic lights (you can see the stop lines in the google maps) on the roundabout which holds up traffic and cause slight tail backs/lane blockages, therefore going straight ahead local practice would be to use the left hand lane - does not absolve need to be aware of what the traffic on the roundabout was doing though.

Haznat

I did my last lesson a year ago and I was told never to change lane on a roundabout. The green car took the course my instructor would have told me to take.

mahoganygas

I use this roundabout quite a bit and have taken both routes. I've had near misses on both the red and green routes.

A lot of traffic gets confused at this exact spot. There's often a lot of beeping and hand gestures.
I've been in the car with other people who take opposite lanes to the ones shown.

From reading responses here I'm none the wiser...

If memory serves me right there is a traffic light where exit 1 and 2 meet (at the 7th green line). There are 3 lanes with 3 arrows - left (for exit 2), straight (for exit 3) and right (for exit 4).
OP took the right line lane and came off at exit 4, which I believe is correct?

viperirl

Ive only recently completed my 12 EDT lessons near the Malahide area so I'm inexperienced. Although I've never used this roundabout in any of my lessons, its one I'm dreading when I have to do it eventually. Out of interest I explained the above accident to my driving instructor earlier today and this is what he said in a message reply:

Its all to do with mirrors and observation and position really. Guy headin from pavillions in correct position as that is his 4th exit as far my vision memory tells me, how ever you can't take it for granted that you go from tight to roundabout to reasonably close to the left. Observation and Mirrors tell all, either continue in right lane on dual carraige if there is one in use or go around the roundabout again if there is an obstruction. I'm pretty sure feltrim and airport/dublin are the other guys 1st and 2nd exit, so the first part of his roundabout should start in the middle lane of the 3 provided then fix position. If there is only one exit between malahide and pavillions he is in correct position. But I'm fairly certain there is two exits before
Pavillions. Either way it all comes down the who hit who with insurance claims really.

Zen 2nd

The OP was in the correct lane, and stayed in the correct lane right up to the exit. The person entering the roundabout has more vision of what is going on and should see that the OP's car will be taking an exit before him.

Thus the person joining the roundabout should wait until the OP has passed. Or at least join at a slower speed with anticipation that the OP will be taking an exit.

I don't know how an insurance company will interrupt it and I am open to correction but this is what I believe to be true.

Wicked131

Thanks guys for all the feedback, its still 50/50 really from what I can see.

I have reported the claim to insurance company, waiting now for call with further instructions, will update you all once I know who was right. Cheers

Hoboo

OP is fine IMHO.

Right lane should be taken when exiting at 12 o'clock or afterwards. OP did so.

Car from Malahide should not have entered until clear safe to do so, traffic coming from right.

Car from Malahide had better vision and expectation of car of OP.

I use this route pretty much daily, I see it all the time, but local rules or knowledge should not apply. All of those roundabouts are lethal for drivers in the left thinking they can cross a right lane. Airport roundabout is unreal as well.

stimpson

I'm amazed anyone thinks the OP is in anyway at fault. There is a yield sign when you come on to a roundabout so you must give way to anyone else on the roundabout. I can't think of any way that someone coming from Malahide could not be at fault in this instance. OP - I'd leave it to your insurance to sort out.

Heart Break Kid

The malahide and the feltrim exit is an odd one, I would've expected the red car to take the left at feltrim or the Airport exit with its current position. If he was heading to swords, he should've gone on the inside lane then moving to the middle lane at the lights.

Seems like positioning error by the red car,then observation error with the green car which led collision. I would expect Red car to be more at fault as he shouldn't of been on the outside lane at that stage of the roundabout and should've been aware cars on the inside lane will attempt to turn left.

Wicked131

Waiting for the guys from FBD to come over to have a look at my car this thursday, cause the other guy says it wasn't his fault they'll make a decision based on damage done to both vehicles (how?!). Brilliant.

Stheno

Wicked131 wrote: »

Waiting for the guys from FBD to come over to have a look at my car this thursday, cause the other guy says it wasn't his fault they'll make a decision based on damage done to both vehicles (how?!). Brilliant.

That's normal when there is a disputed claim

Did you have any witnesses?

Wicked131

Stheno wrote: »

That's normal when there is a disputed claim

Did you have any witnesses?

Nope, just a dashcam. On the footage you can clearly see the the other drive merged into my lane and wasn't using indicators at all.

Del2005

stimpson wrote: »

I'm amazed anyone thinks the OP is in anyway at fault. There is a yield sign when you come on to a roundabout so you must give way to anyone else on the roundabout. I can't think of any way that someone coming from Malahide could not be at fault in this instance. OP - I'd leave it to your insurance to sort out.

On a two lane roundabout with someone in the inside lane not indicating to come off of course you can enter the roundabout, what's the point of 2 lanes otherwise.

Both are at fault IMO as even if you have right of way you still have to be observant of other traffic so as to avoid people who don't have a clue.

Stheno

Del2005 wrote: »

On a two lane roundabout with someone in the inside lane not indicating to come off of course you can enter the roundabout, what's the point of 2 lanes otherwise.

Both are at fault IMO as even if you have right of way you still have to be observant of other traffic so as to avoid people who don't have a clue.

OP said they were indicating though.

From local knowledge, I'd always be in the outside lane in that circumstance as it's two lanes merging into three if you turn right rather than go straight ahead so it's unusual to see cars in the inside lane not going right.

Stheno

This http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/roundabouts.html is what I mean that while I might approach in the rh lane I'll move to the lh lane approaching the exit.

simdan

Stheno wrote:

This

Stheno wrote:

is what I mean that while I might approach in the rh lane I'll move to the lh lane approaching the exit.

Describes the rules perfectly. So many idiots think that you should be in the right hand lane to go straight. Just follow the 12 o'clock rule and everyone will be fine. I feel that with so many poor drivers on Irish roads that roundabouts should have far more focus when learning.

The Muppet

Wicked131 wrote: »

Good evening everyone,

Yesterday I had a collision on Malahide roundabout, I was going from Pavilions and turning right towards Dublin, the other car was driving from Malahide road towards Pavilions.

I was on the right (inner) lane, the other car was on the left (outer) lane, we met just when I was trying to exit the roundabout and go straight.

Who's fault is it?

I'm 1000% sure it wasn't my fault, I have driving licence for years, but the other guy said he had the right to turn right from a left lane (sic!).

Am I missing anything?

I'm the green car on the pic.

I would agree with you that you were not at fault, If he was going to the pavilions from malahide road that was third exit so he should have been in the same lane as yourself. left lane exit 1 Feltrim and 2 Dublin , right lane exit 2 Dublin , 3 Pavillions and 4 north.

I drive that roundabout a number of times a day, there is no way Id try cut into the pavilions from lane 1 unless I entered from feltrim road.

simdan

Exactly. What the hell was the other guy doing? He was not in the correct lane, passing 12 o'clock and he entered the roundabout after the OP. He was obviously driving dangerously.

Stheno

The Muppet wrote: »

I would agree with you that you were not at fault, If he was going to the pavilions from malahide road that was third exit so he should have been in the same lane as yourself. left lane exit 1 Feltrim and 2 Dublin , right lane exit 2 Dublin , 3 Pavillions and 4 north.

I drive that roundabout a number of times a day, there is no way Id try cut into the pavilions from lane 1 unless I entered from feltrim road.

simdan wrote: »

Exactly. What the hell was the other guy doing? He was not in the correct lane, passing 12 o'clock and he entered the roundabout after the OP. He was obviously driving dangerously.

This is a five exit roundabout, and the pavillions exit from malahide is pretty much at 12 o'clock.

The OP was going past twelve o'clock, fine to approach the malahide exit in the RH lane, but should then have clearly moved to the left to approach their exit as per the link I posted.

Ave Sodalis

From the picture OP, I would say you were in the wrong. If the red car didn't know the roundabout, the signs would tell you that the exit he was taking was straight on so he was in the correct lane. You were also in your correct lane however you should have moved over earlier and been far more observant. I think they will get you on a lack of observation. As a general rule of thumb as I was taught when learning to drive, it's best to move over lane at the exit before yours. You're also supposed to look and only move over if the way is clear.

cruizer101

OP you were in correct lane, there are two lanes that exit from the roundabout they way you were exiting, you could have been in either.

That said, depending on the details of crash, position relative to each other at time of impact some blame could go your way. Other driver should not have entered roundabout with you on it, I don't know where they thought you were going to exit considering they should have seen you hadn't come from teh north.

The likely outcome is 50/50 from insurance mind, I have a sneaking suspicion they tend to do that if they can as it means both policies lose no claims and can be loaded.

The_Chap

Who entered the roundabout first here, did you pass him and he joined as you passed?

jeepers101

Stheno wrote: »

This is a five exit roundabout, and the pavillions exit from malahide is pretty much at 12 o'clock.

The OP was going past twelve o'clock, fine to approach the malahide exit in the RH lane, but should then have clearly moved to the left to approach their exit as per the link I posted.

Stheno I really don't think you should be moving to the left on approaching your exit if it is a multi-lane roundabout.

Changing lanes on a roundabout is extremely dangerous. There's enough to be concentrating on without having to worry about, for example, a motorcycle in your blind spot.

Take a look at the gif on the link you posted. The cars taking the 3 o clock exit leave the roundabout in the same lane they enter i.e. the right hand lane.

Wicked131

cruizer101 wrote: »

OP you were in correct lane, there are two lanes that exit from the roundabout they way you were exiting, you could have been in either.

That said, depending on the details of crash, position relative to each other at time of impact some blame could go your way. Other driver should not have entered roundabout with you on it, I don't know where they thought you were going to exit considering they should have seen you hadn't come from teh north.

The likely outcome is 50/50 from insurance mind, I have a sneaking suspicion they tend to do that if they can as it means both policies lose no claims and can be loaded.

I'm so confused in fairness, can't really wait till thursday to see what's the verdict, it's like waiting on lotto results.

The biggest problem here is a loophole in the system, in other countries no matter if there's anyone injured in a collision police will always investigate the scene after the incident and make a decision about who is guilty on the spot. Then you just pass the message to the insurance company and they give you $. Simple as that.

Wicked131

The_Chap wrote: »

Who entered the roundabout first here, did you pass him and he joined as you passed?

I was on the roundabout first, waiting for the lights to go green, he joined about 5 meters in front of my car.

highdef

I'm with the last two posts too. OP went to exit from the right lane of the roundabout but should have moved to the left lane as he passed the previous exit so that he'd be in the correct lane to exit. Red car was in the correct lane as he was going straight ahead at twelve o clock.... Third exit but still straight ahead, as per the original route of the road before the dual carriageway was built. I'd put a small amount of blame on the red car but most on the green car

Stheno

jeepers101 wrote: »

Stheno I really don't think you should be moving to the left on approaching your exit if it is a multi-lane roundabout.

Changing lanes on a roundabout is extremely dangerous. There's enough to be concentrating on without having to worry about, for example, a motorcycle in your blind spot.

Take a look at the gif on the link you posted. The cars taking the 3 o clock exit leave the roundabout in the same lane they enter i.e. the right hand lane.

It was the fourth exit the OP took at about three o'clock from where they came.

From the link I posted which is taken directly from the rsa rules of the road (page 130)http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf

Taking any later exits (those past 12 o'clock - right)

Approach in the right-hand lane (unless road markings say otherwise), indicate 'right' on your approach and leave your indicator on until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take. Then change to the 'left' turn indicator. Move over towards the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

highdef

Wicked131 wrote: »

I was on the roundabout first, waiting for the lights to go green, he joined about 5 meters in front of my car.

So if you were waiting for green, do you mean you were stopped before the junction where the red car joined and so the red car joined the roundabout whilst you were stopped?

Ave Sodalis

jeepers101 wrote:

Changing lanes on a roundabout is extremely dangerous. There's enough to be concentrating on without having to worry about, for example, a motorcycle in your blind spot.

Isn't that one of the very things you're supposed to worry about when changing lanes?

Collielover

Stheno wrote: »

It was the fourth exit the OP took at about three o'clock from where they came.

From the link I posted which is taken directly from the rsa rules of the road (page 130)http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf

Stheno it also says;

When leaving the roundabout take extra care at all exits, checking for other road users - for example, cyclists and motorcyclists who may be continuing on the roundabout.

and

REMEMBER
Conditions at roundabouts may vary. Exercise caution at all times. In particular, be aware of traffic signs, traffic lights, road markings and traffic coming from your right when approaching roundabouts.

It's a notoriously bad roundabout and OP has since added the other driver entered the roundabout ahead of the OP while the OP was stopped at lights, clearly more observation from both drivers was needed to avoid this accident.

Stheno

Collielover wrote: »

Stheno it also says;



and



It's a notoriously bad roundabout and OP has since added the other driver entered the roundabout ahead of the OP while the OP was stopped at lights, clearly more observation from both drivers was needed to avoid this accident.

Yes, but OP appears to have been stopped at the lights, the other driver was on the roundabout first, and so Op didn't take the observation required if they were stopped due to the lights.

The roundabout is notorious, but the other driver wasn't wrong in the lane they took, but poor in observation, both were, which is why I'd class it as 50/50

Edit, actually given that Op was stopped at the lights (probably just in front of Malahide exit) and other person was on the roundabout in the lane when Ops lights went green, if the other driver was indicating, OP is at fault for sheer lack of observation of the signalling given that both lanes can go right or straight ahead.

I'd still class it as 50/50

Wicked131

highdef wrote: »

So if you were waiting for green, do you mean you were stopped before the junction where the red car joined and so the red car joined the roundabout whilst you were stopped?

He joined around 3-4 seconds after I got the green light.

Collielover

Stheno wrote: »

Yes, but OP appears to have been stopped at the lights, the other driver was on the roundabout first, and so Op didn't take the observation required if they were stopped due to the lights.

The roundabout is notorious, but the other driver wasn't wrong in the lane they took, but poor in observation, both were, which is why I'd class it as 50/50

Oh yes I wouldn't say one was more wrong over the other it does seem to be a 50/50 alright, I am curious to see how the insurance calls it!

The_Chap

Wicked131 wrote: »

I was on the roundabout first, waiting for the lights to go green, he joined about 5 meters in front of my car.

It's a tricky one sure, I would have thought that the left hand lane coming from Malahide would be for the first or second exit, not the third so I'd have thought there is more doubt he was in the right lane. You absolutely were and had every "right" to exit to the right lane, I'd have expected him to have exited in the left thus avoiving collision

Stheno

Wicked131 wrote: »

He joined around 3-4 seconds after I got the green light.

Hmm so you both joined (given the relative distance between the lights you were at and the Malahide junction (which has no lights apart from a yield/permanent orange)?

50/50 so tbh.

La Fenetre

Neither of ye were looking out for someone in the other lane, and neither of ye had the right to change lanes without checking, instead of just chilling, and letting the childish stressed out hysterical little mickey types on their way.