Pedal cycles banned on Irish Rail - really?

ceannair06

So finally IR do something and ban bikes during peak times.

Great, or so we thought. Apparently every train leaving from 16:00 to 19:00 (and times in the morning also) are prohibited for bike users.

Then why on the last three evenings going for the 5.25 to Limerick have three lycra clad morons waltzed through the barriers wheeling their bikes ?

I mentioned this to an IR staff member and he just shrugged. But then they do that a lot.

Good idea for the ban - now keep to it!

schemingbohemia

Maybe if you bothered to actually read the information provided you would see that they are enforcing bookings and that if you haven't booked your bike on board you won't be able to bring it on. So these people (why you have to refer to them as morons is beyond me, other than an irrational fear of someone choosing to cycle a bike) probably did read the information correctly and booked their bikes into the bike spaces on board.

Please note that from the 19th October 2015 bicycles will not be permitted during the following times for journeys into/out of Heuston station from Monday - Friday unless the bicycle is booked on Intercity services in advance on-line.

Danjamin1

From your previous posts I can see you've got some vendetta against cyclists (albeit mostly the rule breaking ones), why shouldn't they be allowed transport their bikes by train if they've booked them correctly?

ceannair06

I did read that.

The train I travel on does not have bike slots. So nothing to book.

And any group who repeatedly fail to realise that red means stop are morons!

ceannair06

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Maybe if you bothered to actually read the information provided you would see that they are enforcing bookings and that if you haven't booked your bike on board you won't be able to bring it on. So these people (why you have to refer to them as morons is beyond me, other than an irrational fear of someone choosing to cycle a bike) probably did read the information correctly and booked their bikes into the bike spaces on board.

Please note that from the 19th October 2015 bicycles will not be permitted during the following times for journeys into/out of Heuston station from Monday - Friday unless the bicycle is booked on Intercity services in advance on-line.

I do have a fear of cycles - though rational, usually when I am trying to walk through the Italian Quarter (pedestrianised and narrow) and a bike is haring towards me.

desertcircus

ceannair06 wrote: »

I did read that.

The train I travel on does not have bike slots. So nothing to book.

And any group who repeatedly fail to realise that red means stop are morons!

Like the drivers at every junction on the Grand Canal every morning who pass through the lights immediately after they turn red?

Danjamin1

ceannair06 wrote:

And any group who repeatedly fail to realise that red means stop are morons!

Right, but you know that the collective group as you see it don't represent all cyclists right? If I were to take a train and book my bike on with the intention of cycling it at my destination would you view me as a moron too? I personally think more facilities like this should be made available, might make people fitter!

schemingbohemia

ceannair06 wrote: »

I did read that.

The train I travel on does not have bike slots. So nothing to book.

And any group who repeatedly fail to realise that red means stop are morons!

Well according to the Irish Rail booking page that train does have space for bikes but you obviously know better.:rolleyes:

cython

ceannair06 wrote: »

I did read that.

The train I travel on does not have bike slots. So nothing to book.

And any group who repeatedly fail to realise that red means stop are morons!

Considering the sheer volume of pedestrians (of which we are all part at one time or another) walking across crossings when faced with a red lamp, that's a big admission on your part.....

ceannair06

desertcircus wrote: »

Like the drivers at every junction on the Grand Canal every morning who pass through the lights immediately after they turn red?

Oh welcome back world's most pathetic argument!!!

"We're bad but cars are worse"

GM228

ceannair06 wrote: »

I did read that.

The train I travel on does not have bike slots. So nothing to book.

And any group who repeatedly fail to realise that red means stop are morons!

I don't think that is a fair comment, a few will ignore reds alright, but a lot won't, can't judge every cyclist based on a few!

But the same goes for motorists-more accidents are caused by motorists ignoring reds than cyclists!

GM228

LXFlyer

Bikes are banned from DART/Commuter services, but not Intercity services during those times.

Provided the bikes are stored in the racks provided (every ICR has one) there should be no issue.

desertcircus

ceannair06 wrote: »

Oh welcome back world's most pathetic argument!!!

"We're bad but cars are worse"

Actually, I obey red lights wherever possible.

But you didn't actually address the point I was making, which was that you can't judge an entire an entire class of road user by the behaviour of a minority of them.

Hunterbiker

If people book a space what's the problem?

And even if you hadn't booked a space you just remove the wheels and slip the frame into a bin liner and it's classed as luggage and be carried free anyway...

lawlolawl

ceannair06 wrote: »

So finally IR do something and ban bikes during peak times.

Great, or so we thought. Apparently every train leaving from 16:00 to 19:00 (and times in the morning also) are prohibited for bike users.

Then why on the last three evenings going for the 5.25 to Limerick have three lycra clad morons waltzed through the barriers wheeling their bikes ?

I mentioned this to an IR staff member and he just shrugged. But then they do that a lot.

Good idea for the ban - now keep to it!

It's not October the 19th yet.

That's when this policy comes into force.

LXFlyer

lawlolawl wrote: »

It's not October the 19th yet.

That's when this policy comes into force.

Nor does the policy apply to that train as it is an Intercity service with bike racks fitted.

GM228

lxflyer wrote: »

Nor does the policy apply to that train as it is an Intercity service with bike racks fitted.

That policy applies to Intercity trains!

GM228

LXFlyer

GM228 wrote: »

That policy applies to Intercity trains!

GM228

Bikes are not banned which is what the OP suggested - people can still bring them provided they book online beforehand and use the tacks provided.

Please note that from the 19th October 2015 bicycles will not be permitted during the following times for journeys into/out of Heuston station from Monday - Friday unless the bicycle is booked on Intercity services in advance on-line.

Services arriving into Heuston station from 07.00 to 09.30
Services departing Heuston station from 16.00 to 19.00
Bicycle spaces must be booked, in advance, online at www.irishrail.ie There will be no charge for these bookings.

GM228

lxflyer wrote: »

Bikes are not banned which is what the OP suggested - people can still bring them provided they book online beforehand and use the tacks provided.

I didn't say bikes are banned, just that the policy applies to Intercity which is what the previous poster suggested otherwise.

GM228

LXFlyer

GM228 wrote: »

I didn't say bikes are banned, just that the policy applies to Intercity which is what the previous poster suggested otherwise.

GM228

The OP was suggesting bikes were banned completely from the 17:25 Heuston-Limerick. He also suggested there was no facilities for bikes on that train.

They aren't banned - online bookings can be made in advance , and racking is provided.

That is what I was responding to.

long_b

It's 6 quid each way for the bike.
Totally unsustainable for commuters.
Surely either a flat yearly is fairer?

I'd settle for a decent lockup for the bicycles in the station. In my local station one of the IR employees said he spends more time chasing thieves away from the bikes than selling tickets
Said he wouldn't park a bike at the station in a fit.

cython

long_b wrote: »

It's 6 quid each way for the bike.
Totally unsustainable for commuters.
Surely either a flat yearly is fairer?

I'd settle for a decent lockup for the bicycles in the station. In my local station one of the IR employees said he spends more time chasing thieves away from the bikes than selling tickets
Said he wouldn't park a bike at the station in a fit.

Irish Rail site (since they introduced this, so it may only be the case from Monday) begs to differ:

http://www.irishrail.ie/travel-information/bicycle-information wrote:

Bicycles on InterCity Trains

All InterCity trains have bicycle carriage facilities. Dublin to Cork and Dublin to Belfast trains are located in a storage area separate from the passenger compartment of the train. All other InterCity routes the bicycle spaces are within the passenger compartment. Iarnród Éireann Irish Rail reserve the right to remove bicycles if staff feel they are obstructing other customers or if they are a safety hazard.

Please note that from the 19th October 2015 bicycles will not be permitted during the following times for journeys into/out of Heuston station from Monday - Friday unless the bicycle is booked on Intercity services in advance on-line.

Services arriving into Heuston station from 07.00 to 09.30
Services departing Heuston station from 16.00 to 19.00

Bicycle spaces must be booked, in advance, online at www.irishrail.ie There will be no charge for these bookings.

These routes are restricted to two bicycles per service. Please note that Iarnród Éireann Irish Rail reserve the right to refuse to carry more than two bicyles if there are only two bike spaces available on a service. Bicycles that are folded and covered can be carried on all services free of charge. Bikes can also be carried for free on all services, however, charges apply on all other intercity routes (see table below).

A bicycle can be carried up to maximum of 1.8 meters in length and up to 0.865m in width.

GM228

"Bikes can also be carried for free on all services, however, charges apply on all other intercity routes (see table below)"

That's a bit confusing don't you think!

The reservation is indeed free but the bike requires a ticket-they always have!

GM228

foggy_lad

The fold up bikes are still free and do not require any ticket or reservation once folded up properly!

The reason they are restricting the bicycles to 2 per train is because those peak time trains(the intercity 22000 stock) are always overcrowded with people standing in the aisles and vestibules with no handrails to help them, the last thing Irish Rail needs are costly personal injury claims from passengers who trip over or fall against bicycles in the vestibules while the train is bouncing along the track or while boarding or alighting.

Please note that from the 19th October 2015 bicycles will not be permitted during the following times for journeys into/out of Heuston station from Monday - Friday unless the bicycle is booked on Intercity services in advance on-line.

Services arriving into Heuston station from 07.00 to 09.30
Services departing Heuston station from 16.00 to 19.00

Bicycle spaces must be booked, in advance, online at www.irishrail.ie There will be no charge for these bookings.

These routes are restricted to two bicycles per service. Please note that Iarnród Éireann Irish Rail reserve the right to refuse to carry more than two bicyles if there are only two bike spaces available on a service. Bicycles that are folded and covered can be carried on all services free of charge. Bikes can also be carried for free on all services, however, charges apply on all other intercity routes (see table below).

Irish Rail really have no choice but to implement this change for health and safety reasons. The next change will hopefully see the prohibition on standees on intercity stock(22000 railcars).

monument

foggy_lad wrote: »

Irish Rail really have no choice but to implement this change for health and safety reasons. The next change will hopefully see the prohibition on standees on intercity stock(22000 railcars).

Moderator warning:

Any further discussion from you on banning "standees" on trains will be treated as trolling.

Btw: I agree with the peak commuter area bicycle ban, so don't anybody even try the cycling bias blah...

loyatemu

Obviously people should not be bringing bikes onto busy trains but they could be more flexible in this - a southbound Dart leaving Blackrock during the morning rush will be half empty, ditto a northbound Dart from Bray in the evening. It wouldn't be that difficult to specify the stations the ban applies between rather than having a blanket ban.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

loyatemu wrote: »

Obviously people should not be bringing bikes onto busy trains but they could be more flexible in this - a southbound Dart leaving Blackrock during the morning rush will be half empty, ditto a northbound Dart from Bray in the evening. It wouldn't be that difficult to specify the stations the ban applies between rather than having a blanket ban.

I think Irish rail are doing right here in adding organizing the bikes on the train but i don't think a specific station ban you suggest would work.

My issue was when i was going from fonthill to heuston in the mornings was you would press for a door to open and there would be a bloke there with a bike blocking the whole thing up unable to move.

Or the great time i press for a door to open and a bike would just fall out .

They may stick the bike to one side but on intercity like the kildare line they use doors on both sides

dubscottie

loyatemu wrote: »

Obviously people should not be bringing bikes onto busy trains but they could be more flexible in this - a southbound Dart leaving Blackrock during the morning rush will be half empty, ditto a northbound Dart from Bray in the evening. It wouldn't be that difficult to specify the stations the ban applies between rather than having a blanket ban.

It needs to be a blanket ban or nothing. There would be 100 ways for people to abuse the ban and cause a nightmare for staff and other passengers.

What would happen if a cyclist boarded a Dart having been told they cant bring a cycle on board, just to find someone got with one as they got on at a different station?

There would be murder, videos on youtube, experts offering advice on how to challenge any fine etc..

Captain Chaos

A blanket ban should be brought in for all service during peak times. As it is trains are not matching capacity at peak times and the number of bikes is increasing week on week. Today at 15:30 at Pearse a north bound DART turns up, only a 4 car set, it's wedged and the amount of bikes trying to leave and squeeze on the train at that hour with that many people is just silly.

A blanket ban from 7-9am and 15:00-19:00 is needed on the DART at least until all trains are returned to 8 car sets as they used to be.

long_b

There clearly is a demand for some sort of bicycle carriage. The solution is to provide what the passengers want, not just reduce the service supplied.

cython

Captain Chaos wrote: »

A blanket ban should be brought in for all service during peak times. As it is trains are not matching capacity at peak times and the number of bikes is increasing week on week. Today at 15:30 at Pearse a north bound DART turns up, only a 4 car set, it's wedged and the amount of bikes trying to leave and squeeze on the train at that hour with that many people is just silly.

A blanket ban from 7-9am and 15:00-19:00 is needed on the DART at least until all trains are returned to 8 car sets as they used to be.

There is already such a ban up to 09:30, and from 16:00-19:00 (not sure that 15:00 is really necessary, but given I'm never on the train at that time I can't really comment). As always though, the problem lies in enforcement - very hard to for all the non-existent/non-present staff to stop people getting on trains with bikes at stations throughout the commuter network, and staff in the likes of Connolly don't seem to care if you arrive into the station on a train with a bike in tow.

Back when I used to get the train to work (I now cycle, somewhat ironically given the subject of this thread) there have been occasions of people trying to get bikes off at the likes of Castleknock that were getting shirty at people being in their way. They tended to get pretty short shift with me and backed down then I pointed out their bloody bikes weren't even allowed on the trains at peak time in the first place. I also tweeted countless pictures of bikes on peak time services to Irish Rail, but there was only ever a token acknowledgement, never an attempt at enforcement.

LXFlyer

The rule that was introduced several years back is this:

Bikes can be brought on any Intercity service, but require a ticket.

However, bikes can be brought on any DART/Commuter service for free outside of 07:00-09:30 and 16:00-19:00:

Commuter services in this regard are defined as:

Northern Line: Pearse-Dundalk
Longford Line: Pearse-Longford/M3 Parkway
Portlaoise Line: Heuston-Portlaoise
Southeastern Line: Connolly-Gorey
Cork: Mallow-Cork-Cobh/Midleton

Clearly on some of those lines there is an overlap between commuter trains and Intercity services, and this rule wasn't being policed properly.

So we are actually back to the rules being enforced now on the Heuston side at peak times, which was and remains, no bikes without a ticket, but now with the added requirement of a reservation.

Hilly Bill

cython wrote: »

There is already such a ban up to 09:30, and from 16:00-19:00 (not sure that 15:00 is really necessary, but given I'm never on the train at that time I can't really comment). As always though, the problem lies in enforcement - very hard to for all the non-existent/non-present staff to stop people getting on trains with bikes at stations throughout the commuter network, and staff in the likes of Connolly don't seem to care if you arrive into the station on a train with a bike in tow.

Back when I used to get the train to work (I now cycle, somewhat ironically given the subject of this thread) there have been occasions of people trying to get bikes off at the likes of Castleknock that were getting shirty at people being in their way. They tended to get pretty short shift with me and backed down then I pointed out their bloody bikes weren't even allowed on the trains at peak time in the first place. I also tweeted countless pictures of bikes on peak time services to Irish Rail, but there was only ever a token acknowledgement, never an attempt at enforcement.

If a station is unmanned then it can't be enforced . If you arrive off a train in a station, there isnt a lot anyone can do since they are leaving the station. All you can do is just inform them of the policy for future reference.

These fold up bikes are a farce as well, where most may actual fold them, some think its ok to leave them as they are because its a fold up bike.

schemingbohemia

loyatemu wrote: »

Obviously people should not be bringing bikes onto busy trains but they could be more flexible in this - a southbound Dart leaving Blackrock during the morning rush will be half empty, ditto a northbound Dart from Bray in the evening. It wouldn't be that difficult to specify the stations the ban applies between rather than having a blanket ban.

This is key, banning bikes from lightly used services is just dumb. Southbound from Pearse and Northbound from Connolly in the morning peak or at least after 9am (and certainly westbound from Heuston) should allow bikes on board.

cython

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If a station is unmanned then it can't be enforced . If you arrive off a train in a station, there isnt a lot anyone can do since they are leaving the station. All you can do is just inform them of the policy for future reference.

These fold up bikes are a farce as well, where most may actual fold them, some think its ok to leave them as they are because its a fold up bike.

I've seen people changing trains in Connolly unchallenged as well, but go on making excuses sure. Simple fact is none of the staff actually even informed those who were just exiting of the policy either. They really just can't be bothered, considering multiple times it was two lads having a chat who were still there when I had crossed to platform 5 - basically proves no more pressing matter to deal with.

You've also exhibited yet another problem with Irish Rail's unmanned network of stations, though I suppose even if staff were present they'd just say the bike was brought in the other side from the office (which has an open gate on most stations on the Maynooth line).

GM228

The new Heuston side rule is to be extended to all routes in the coming weeks (i.e trains to/from Connolly).

GM228

LXFlyer

GM228 wrote: »

The new Heuston side rule is to be extended to all routes in the coming weeks (i.e trains to/from Connolly).

GM228

The rule is already there - it has just not been enforced.

You already need a ticket for a bike on Intercity services, and they're already banned from DART/commuter services at peak times.

I don't really see what's to change?

GM228

lxflyer wrote: »

The rule is already there - it has just not been enforced.

You already need a ticket for a bike on Intercity services, and they're already banned from DART/commuter services at peak times.

I don't really see what's to change?

I'm talking about the new rule regarding reservations on Intercity services for bikes arriving and departing from Heuston at certain times. It is to extend to Connolly.

GM228

Muahahaha

I saw a report on this on the RTE 6 o'clock news the other day. The report basically made out that bikes were banned full stop from peak time services, they even interviewed a commuter-cyclist in Hueston who said he brings his bike on the train and cycles to UCD, now he said he'd have to lock it in Hueston station under the new regime. Barry Kenny of Irish Rail was then interviewed and he seemed to substantiate the claim that bikes were banned from peak time trains

But now I read here that bikes are allowed on peak services so long as you have a ticket and a reservation. Am I missing something here or did RTE and Barry Kenny just spin the public the completely the wrong message ?

GM228

Muahahaha wrote: »

I saw a report on this on the RTE 6 o'clock news the other day. The report basically made out that bikes were banned full stop from peak time services, they even interviewed a commuter-cyclist in Hueston who said he brings his bike on the train and cycles to UCD, now he said he'd have to lock it in Hueston station under the new regime. Barry Kenny of Irish Rail was then interviewed and he seemed to substantiate the claim that bikes were banned from peak time trains

But now I read here that bikes are allowed on peak services so long as you have a ticket and a reservation. Am I missing something here or did RTE and Barry Kenny just spin the public the completely the wrong message ?

Yes bikes are allowed on peaks services so long as they have a ticket (which was always the case) and a reservation which is the new way. This method will apply to Connolly trains in a few weeks also.

http://www.irishrail.ie/travel-information/bicycle-information

GM228

LXFlyer

Let's be quite clear about this.

Bicycles can still be brought on Intercity services at any time, but they require a ticket, and now also require a reservation in advance online during peak times.

Bicycles cannot be brought on commuter services at peak times (0700-0930 and 1600-1900):
DART
Dublin-Maynooth/Longford / M3 Parkway
Dublin-Dundalk
Dublin-Portlaoise
Dublin-Gorey
Mallow-Cork-Cobh/Midleton

This would apply to such commuter services where they are operated by ICRs (e.g. Dublin-Drogheda or Dundalk), even where they have bike racks.

GM228

lxflyer wrote: »

Let's be quite clear about this.

Bicycles can still be brought on Intercity services at any time, but they require a ticket, and now also require a reservation in advance online during peak times.

Bicycles cannot be brought on commuter services at peak times (0700-0930 and 1600-1900):
DART
Dublin-Maynooth/Longford / M3 Parkway
Dublin-Dundalk
Dublin-Portlaoise
Dublin-Gorey
Mallow-Cork-Cobh/Midleton

This would apply to such commuter services where they are operated by ICRs (e.g. Dublin-Drogheda or Dundalk), even where they have bike racks.

That is correct, although the requirement to have a reservation on peak intercity services currently only applies to thr Heuston side, it will extend to the Connolly side soon.

GM228

Muahahaha

GM228 wrote: »

Yes bikes are allowed on peaks services so long as they have a ticket (which was always the case) and a reservation which is the new way. This method will apply to Connolly trains in a few weeks also.

http://www.irishrail.ie/travel-information/bicycle-information

GM228

Thanks. In that case the report by RTE and the interview with Barry Kenny was totally misleading. It gave the impression that all bikes were banned on peak services, the RTE journalist even went to the trouble of telling a UCD student that he would no longer be able to bring his bike on the train and asked him what his reaction to that would be.

Wildly inaccurate reporting by RTE, propped up by Barry Kenny.

GM228

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thanks. In that case the report by RTE and the interview with Barry Kenny was totally misleading. It gave the impression that all bikes were banned on peak services, the RTE journalist even went to the trouble of telling a UCD student that he would no longer be able to bring his bike on the train and asked him what his reaction to that would be.

Wildly inaccurate reporting by RTE, propped up by Barry Kenny.

TBH that dosn't surprise me, if RTE actually told the facts that you STILL can bring a bike, but you just need a reservation (which is FREE) then there wouldn't be any story to tell!

GM228

LXFlyer

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thanks. In that case the report by RTE and the interview with Barry Kenny was totally misleading. It gave the impression that all bikes were banned on peak services, the RTE journalist even went to the trouble of telling a UCD student that he would no longer be able to bring his bike on the train and asked him what his reaction to that would be.

Wildly inaccurate reporting by RTE, propped up by Barry Kenny.

Well unless he was travelling long distance, he would not be able to bring his bike. It's unlikely he was. Presumably he was commuting within the greater Dublin area.

I very much doubt he was buying a ticket every day!!

Also, there's only space for 2 bikes on the ICRs so the only trains that can take them in any numbers are the Mark 4 sets and the Enterprise (when it comes back).

GM228

lxflyer wrote: »

Well unless he was travelling long distance, he would not be able to bring his bike.

It's unlikely he was.

You can bring a bike even the shortest distance (i.e to a commuter stop) on an intercity service during peak times as long as you have a ticket and reservation.

GM228

LXFlyer

GM228 wrote: »

You can bring a bike even the shortest distance (i.e to a commuter stop) on an intercity service during peak times as long as you have a ticket and reservation.

GM228

Yes but that requires paying every day both ways for his bicycle - that student would not have been doing that.

So the report wasn't exactly wrong.

Hilly Bill

cython wrote: »

I've seen people changing trains in Connolly unchallenged as well, but go on making excuses sure. Simple fact is none of the staff actually even informed those who were just exiting of the policy either. They really just can't be bothered, considering multiple times it was two lads having a chat who were still there when I had crossed to platform 5 - basically proves no more pressing matter to deal with.

You've also exhibited yet another problem with Irish Rail's unmanned network of stations, though I suppose even if staff were present they'd just say the bike was brought in the other side from the office (which has an open gate on most stations on the Maynooth line).

I've seen them being turned away from the platforms on numerous occasions.

cython

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I've seen them being turned away from the platforms on numerous occasions.

Not sure what bearing that has on any of the points that I made......

foggy_lad

Muahahaha wrote: »

I saw a report on this on the RTE 6 o'clock news the other day. The report basically made out that bikes were banned full stop from peak time services, they even interviewed a commuter-cyclist in Hueston who said he brings his bike on the train and cycles to UCD, now he said he'd have to lock it in Hueston station under the new regime. Barry Kenny of Irish Rail was then interviewed and he seemed to substantiate the claim that bikes were banned from peak time trains

But now I read here that bikes are allowed on peak services so long as you have a ticket and a reservation. Am I missing something here or did RTE and Barry Kenny just spin the public the completely the wrong message ?

There will only be two bicycles allowed on any train with ticket and reservation. Many of the Portlaoise commuter services as well as other services stopping at Newbridge Sallins and Kildare carried several bikes each.

beauf

The design of the trains, and the bike racks are very poor with regard to bikes. The bike racks are unsuitable if people are getting off a different stops. They are also using intercity trains on commuting routes like the Maynooth/Docklands line. So they are unsuitable for large mass of standing commuters, never mind bikes. But that's not going to change. So you have to work with what you have.

You also have a behaviour of the cyclists some of which are obnoxious. Blocking doorways and exists, and bringing non folding bikes on crammed trains.

On the flip side most with bikes are only travelling at less busier times, (usually the same train everyday) and always move their bikes to the wheelchair space or bike racks and out of everyone's way. There's a good few with folding bikes, on my route. Ironically its easier to put these on the luggage racks on the intercity train than the commuter style train where there are no luggage racks.

You never know which style of train is going to turn up. Hard to plan your bike journey around that. Also you never know where the wheelchair/bike rack carriage is going to be either, can be either end of somewhere in the middle.

But if there's no enforcement as currently. Doesn't matter what rules they change or make up.