NTA launching transport strategy today

thomasj

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/1015/734941-transport-plan/

Transport strategy for 2016-2035 :rolleyes: announced today

Given the reference to the M50 in that article, I wonder are there plans for a proper orbital bus service on the cards?

Report can be found here(warning large download)
http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2015/10/nta-gda-strategy.pdf

pclive

Yet another report!

AlanG

I would love to see how the came up with the chart for available capacity between 8 and 9 in the morning- Figure 9.6 on page 102 - perhaps they are counting capacity in both directions.

loyatemu

Woohoo, another plan. I look forward to the next one in 5 - 7 years time.

noelfirl

pclive wrote: »

Yet another report!

Talk is cheap...

cdebru

AlanG wrote: »

I would love to see how the came up with the chart for available capacity between 8 and 9 in the morning- Figure 9.6 on page 102 - perhaps they are counting capacity in both directions.

They are using 2011 as the base year, if you think back to then the roads, trains, buses and trams were all a lot emptier than today, a bit ridiculous using 4 year data from the height of the recession to evaluate capacity on public transport.
They may well be counting capacity in both directions as well, which is really useful to someone trying to squeeze into a tram or train that if only they would go in the opposite direction there would be loads of space.

Keyzer

More nonsense, even if someone sinks their teeth into it they will spend millions investigating feasibility only to cancel at the last minute and revert to implementing a world class canal system.

serfboard

thomasj wrote: »

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/1015/734941-transport-plan/

Transport strategy for 2016-2035 :rolleyes: announced today

Given the reference to the M50 in that article, I wonder are there plans for a proper orbital bus service on the cards?

Report can be found here(warning large download)
http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2015/10/nta-gda-strategy.pdf

From that RTE page:

RTE wrote:

CEO of the National Transport Authority Anne Graham has said the focus of the draft transport strategy

omitted words - "For The Greater Dublin Area".

Obviously the press release forgot about that bit :rolleyes:. The rest of us are grand, thanks.

schemingbohemia

cdebru wrote: »

They are using 2011 as the base year, if you think back to then the roads, trains, buses and trams were all a lot emptier than today, a bit ridiculous using 4 year data from the height of the recession to evaluate capacity on public transport.
They may well be counting capacity in both directions as well, which is really useful to someone trying to squeeze into a tram or train that if only they would go in the opposite direction there would be loads of space.

Yeah they should pretend that there was a census in the interim!

murphaph

serfboard wrote: »

From that RTE page:

omitted words - "For The Greater Dublin Area".

Obviously the press release forgot about that bit :rolleyes:. The rest of us are grand, thanks.

Have we reached a new low where Dublin is begrudged even a report about what needs doing?!

For the record, I for one would be perfectly happy for them to prepare a bullsh!t report for your part of the country as well.

serfboard

schemingbohemia wrote: »

<snip>

Perhaps you should read what I was criticising - that the article on RTE didn't mention the fact that the strategy was only for the Greater Dublin Area - before you start jumping to conclusions.

murphaph wrote: »

Have we reached a new low where Dublin is begrudged even a report about what needs doing?!

See above and no.

murphaph wrote: »

For the record, I for one would be perfectly happy for them to prepare a bullsh!t report for your part of the country as well.

Oh we're getting one soon enough alright - the Western Development Commission is preparing one about the huge demand for rail freight that exists in the West Of Ireland.

So, bullsh!t reports all-round

loyatemu

murphaph wrote: »

For the record, I for one would be perfectly happy for them to prepare a bullsh!t report for your part of the country as well.

I propose a maglev monorail down the west coast to be built by 2035, sure why not?

markpb

serfboard wrote: »

The rest of us are grand, thanks.

Jesus Christ. This is why we get nothing done in this country. Every time someone does something for one place, the rest of the country gets the huff. The NTA could have spent the last six months trying to work out how BE and the private operators are going to serve the country but as soon as they produce one report on Dublin, people like you sulk and complain the rest of the country is forgotten about. Grow up.

Edit: I posted this before reading the rest of the thread. I'm even more lost, you're annoyed because RTE left out some words to shorten a headline? I hope you never has the misfortune to watch Sky News, you'd die of anger.

cdebru

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Yeah they should pretend that there was a census in the interim!

So you need a census to tell you if the trains and trams are full ?

LeinsterDub

noelfirl wrote: »

Talk is cheap...

If only it was 40 million spent talking about MN or DU can't remember which

LeinsterDub

thomasj wrote: »

Transport strategy for 2016-2035 :rolleyes: announced today

https://www.nasa.gov/content/nasas-journey-to-mars/

NASA is developing the capabilities needed to send humans to an asteroid by 2025 and Mars in the 2030s

I know which one I believe has more hope of happening

schemingbohemia

cdebru wrote: »

So you need a census to tell you if the trains and trams are full ?

No but when you're positing a base line, then using the largest actual survey rather than a model seems to me to make sense.

cdebru

schemingbohemia wrote: »

No but when you're positing a base line, then using the largest actual survey rather than a model seems to me to make sense.

The NTA conduct regular surveys on the various transport modes which would be far more up to date and accurate than the questions asked in the census in 2011.

expectationlost

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They're not permitted under legislation to do a National Strategy only a GDA Strategy, perhaps inform yourself before bleating.

the National Transport Authority is not premitted under legislation to do a National Strategy?

expectationlost

cdebru wrote: »

The NTA conduct regular surveys on the various transport modes which would be far more up to date and accurate than the questions asked in the census in 2011.

like the heavy rail survey 2014 they published last week https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/heavy-rail-census-for-2014/

Idbatterim

Yet another report!

I am looking forward to the report on the report...

Alkers

Just had a read there, while it looks good paper, the reality that it will only be implemented in piecemeal segments.

The key bus routes that they have identified should begin to be upgraded to improve bus priority as soon as possible and the NTA should put each of these high capacity routes out to tender.

Also the following extract cannot be implemented any sooner for me:
6.4 Fares
It is proposed that:
i A simplified fare system will be introduced in the Greater Dublin Area, covering bus, rail, Luas
and Metro services, which will also facilitate multi-leg and multi-modal journeys in a cost effective
manner;
ii All bus services will migrate to a cashless system, to facilitate driver safety and faster passenger
boarding times; and
iii The current Leap card system will be further developed with new products and services added and
will, over time, transition to an account based system using mobile phones and/ or other payment
methods as new technologies mature.

Pete_Cavan

Where did this Poolbeg Luas come from? Never heard of it before.

Seems like a very expensive extension (requiring another new bridge over the Liffey!) for very little benefit. When one/both of the new pedestrian bridges are built, it would be as quick to get off at the existing Red Line Spencer Dock stop and walk across to GCS as stay on the Luas and get off on the south side of the Eastlink. People living in Ringsend would be better served by buses into the city centre.

Better to extend the Red Line to Clontarf Road via the Port and EastPoint. That way it serves places which actually generate trips and links up with Dart allowing interchange. Companies in EastPoint already operate shuttle buses from Clontarf Road so may be willing to contribute towards a Luas extension. Either way, a bridge over the mouth of the Tolka would be a lot cheaper than another opening bridge along side the Eastlink.

Would make more sense to build a Poolbeg extension off the proposed Luas line from Lucan, why terminate it around College Green when it could go another couple of km over land to Ringsend without a new opening bridge?

jwwb

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Where did this Poolbeg Luas come from? Never heard of it before.

They had a purple crayon left over and didn't want it to go to waste

end of the road

expectationlost wrote: »

the National Transport Authority is not premitted under legislation to do a National Strategy?

i wouldn't be in the slightist bit surprised at that TBH. remember they were once the dublin transport authority, who were suddenly lumped into looking after the rest of ireland

Simona1986 wrote: »

the NTA should put each of these high capacity routes out to tender.

no . i can see nothing to be gained

serfboard

markpb wrote: »

you're annoyed because RTE left out some words to shorten a headline?

Actually, nothing to do with a headline. Shortening a headline I can understand. However, I was looking forward to reading this "draft transport strategy" published by the National Transport Authority and when I downloaded it I see that it's not a National Transport Strategy prepared by the National Transport Agency. I had made the logical assumption that it would be given that nowhere in the article did it suggest otherwise.

I see that the original page has now been changed from:

RT&#201 wrote:

CEO of the National Transport Authority Anne Graham has said the focus of the draft transport strategy ...

to

RT&#201 wrote:

CEO of the National Transport Authority Anne Graham has said the focus of the draft Greater Dublin area transport strategy ...

so my legitimately raised concern that the article was misleading has now been addressed.

fly_agaric

serfboard wrote: »

From that RTE page:

omitted words - "For The Greater Dublin Area".

Obviously the press release forgot about that bit :rolleyes:. The rest of us are grand, thanks.

Well you can't win I suppose. As mentioned it was to be the "Dublin Transport Authority" but politicians felt it was wrong/"regionist" or showed the Dublin-centric mindset or whatever and called it the "National" authority though most of what it does seems to relate to Dublin's transport.

thomasj

fly_agaric wrote: »

Well you can't win I suppose. As mentioned it was to be the "Dublin Transport Authority" but politicians felt it was wrong/"regionist" or showed the Dublin-centric mindset or whatever and called it the "National" authority though most of what it does seems to relate to Dublin's transport.

Well keep an eye out for the as gaeilge version!

alcaline

thomasj wrote: »

Well keep an eye out for the as gaeilge version!

They are redesigning the tickets issued by the machines on DB to include a bit of Irish language.

murphaph

alcaline wrote: »

They are redesigning the tickets issued by the machines on DB to include a bit of Irish language.

Good to see we have our public transport priorities right!

Grandeeod

I read it this morning. Just more rehashed stuff from 10/20 years ago! PFC, T21, blah, blah, blah!

Metro South? Oh good jaysus!

Its not a report. Its a comedy sketch!

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

Good to see we have our public transport priorities right!

It's not just a simple redesign :eek:

Currently it appears that the first phase will be the appearance of the Transport for Ireland logo and a dual DB/BAC headline atop each cash-fare ticket,followed by other alterations to come.

God only knows what the rest of the phases of this particular "Initiative" will compose of,but we are assured it is to allow Dublin Bus to meet the requirements of the Transport Act 1950 as well as adhering to the,perhaps more recent,requirements of the NTA itself.

Bizzarre stuff indeed,particularly when put alongside large scale "Visions for Public Transport in 2035"....headscratching is about the most I could manage ?

Van.Bosch

Most people on this forum are passionate about public transport in Dublin so a report like this should typically be something to pour over and discuss etc.

Instead the reactions have been nothing but negative as no one on here believes any of it will happen.

I think that is a shocking indictment of how poor public transport planning in this country, that what should be significant reports meriting debate just get ridiculed.

This is not a reflection on the posters on here as most would embrace a report like this if we hadn't seen them for at least 25 years with no follow through.

LeinsterDub

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Most people on this forum are passionate about public transport in Dublin so a report like this should typically be something to pour over and discuss etc.

Instead the reactions have been nothing but negative as no one on here believes any of it will happen.

I think that is a shocking indictment of how poor public transport planning in this country, that what should be significant reports meriting debate just get ridiculed.

This is not a reflection on the posters on here as most would embrace a report like this if we hadn't seen them for at least 25 years with no follow through.

Only point I'd disagree with is the 25 years . A version DU has been talked about for 50 years at this stage.

noelfirl

So the one real thing that stuck out at me from that report:

As passenger demand increases, additional capacity will be added to the bus network where it is
required;

Radial bus services on the routes forming the Core Radial Bus Network will be operated at a high
frequency, generally at a ten minute frequency during peak hours and a fifteen to twenty minute
frequency for most off-peak hours;

Orbital bus services on the routes forming the Core Orbital Bus Network will be operated at a
matching frequency to the core radial services to ensure that they offer an attractive alternative to
the private car and to facilitate ease of interchange with radial services;

With regards the radial routes, I know they preface with a catchall that supply will be increased as required by demand, but a 10 minute peak frequency per corridor in 2035 is not a very positive, future-proofing outlook, is it? Particularly where peak hours in this country seem to be defined very tightly and very limited (IMO). I also recognise that it refers to core routes, and that there will be other routes running along the same corridors, but it still seems a bit weak. I would have hoped that something like every 6-8 minutes on core corridors during peak hours would have been a target for 20 years down the line.

The orbital proposal is better, if they follow through in it. The idealised innermost orbital corridor seems a bit cut short though on either end.

EDIT: and now that I look even closer, the second orbital corridor appears to be going through the park! That'll be the day...

LeinsterDub

NTA have release a picture of them developing this report

bk

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Most people on this forum are passionate about public transport in Dublin so a report like this should typically be something to pour over and discuss etc.

Instead the reactions have been nothing but negative as no one on here believes any of it will happen. ......

I actually read through the report and in fairness it is a very good report. Every report I read makes me think that the NTA is staffed with excellent planners, who are well aware of international best practices and want to implement them here in Ireland. Their plans are right in line with what most of us here on this forum thinks needs to happen here in Ireland in terms of infrastructure.

The problem really isn't the planners. The problem is that beyond some small minor projects (RTPI, Dublin Bikes), the NTA doesn't have any money to actually pay for any of these plans and is instead reliant on the funding actually coming from the Government.

Basically the major infrastructural projects end up as political footballs for our politicians to promise stuff while in fact kicking it down the line as they are afraid of being seen as too Dublin centric by their rural electorate. It is all down to parish pump politics.

What needs to happen is a reform of Irish politics to give more power to the Dublin region to recognise it's importance to the Irish economy and move away from the ridiculous nonsense of people in little towns in the west of Ireland having a say in Dublins infrastructural needs.

We do this by:

- Reform the Dail, cut the number of TD's in half and re-orient them towards national policies rather then getting pot holes filled in their constituencies and turning up to every bloody funeral and wedding.

- Re-merge the Dublin councils to create a single strong Dublin Council.

- Create a position of a real, elected and politically powerful Mayor of Dublin. Basically same as the London model.

- Ring fence the funding for infrastructure projects in the Dublin area, under the control of the Mayor of Dublin, Dublin Council and the NTA to decide how it gets spent, not some idiot from Mayo.

Of course I expect non of this will happen for obvious reasons (rural TD's not wanting to lose power and position) and instead we will stumble along getting scraps like Luas Cross City.

Idbatterim

This is not a reflection on the posters on here as most would embrace a report like this if we hadn't seen them for at least 25 years with no follow through.

funny all of the extra billions that was available for this budget, then you look at the pocket change "savings" they have kicked DU and MN down the road for over a decade for. PATHETIC. The savings for these revised projects in the scheme of things, is a total and utter irrelevance. What will these delays do to our competitiveness, ability to build higher density housing and have a realistic alternative of living outside Dublin but being able to REASONABLY commute in?

Alkers

bk wrote: »

I actually read through the report and in fairness it is a very good report. Every report I read makes me think that the NTA is staffed with excellent planners, who are well aware of international best practices and want to implement them here in Ireland. Their plans are right in line with what most of us here on this forum thinks needs to happen here in Ireland in terms of infrastructure.

The problem really isn't the planners. The problem is that beyond some small minor projects (RTPI, Dublin Bikes), the NTA doesn't have any money to actually pay for any of these plans and is instead reliant on the funding actually coming from the Government.

Basically the major infrastructural projects end up as political footballs for our politicians to promise stuff while in fact kicking it down the line as they are afraid of being seen as too Dublin centric by their rural electorate. It is all down to parish pump politics.

What needs to happen is a reform of Irish politics to give more power to the Dublin region to recognise it's importance to the Irish economy and move away from the ridiculous nonsense of people in little towns in the west of Ireland having a say in Dublins infrastructural needs.

We do this by:

- Reform the Dail, cut the number of TD's in half and re-orient them towards national policies rather then getting pot holes filled in their constituencies and turning up to every bloody funeral and wedding.

- Re-merge the Dublin councils to create a single strong Dublin Council.

- Create a position of a real, elected and politically powerful Mayor of Dublin. Basically same as the London model.

- Ring fence the funding for infrastructure projects in the Dublin area, under the control of the Mayor of Dublin, Dublin Council and the NTA to decide how it gets spent, not some idiot from Mayo.

Of course I expect non of this will happen for obvious reasons (rural TD's not wanting to lose power and position) and instead we will stumble along getting scraps like Luas Cross City.

What about the creation of a Dublin transport body - like Transport for London, put them in charge of busses, trains, roads inside the M50, taxis etc, pay them a budget every year (inc for capital expenditure) and let them be the single body for everything from procurement to planning?

bk

Simona1986 wrote: »

What about the creation of a Dublin transport body - like Transport for London, put them in charge of busses, trains, roads inside the M50, taxis etc, pay them a budget every year (inc for capital expenditure) and let them be the single body for everything from procurement to planning?

That is exactly what the NTA is. They were originally formed to be in charge of all transport for Dublin. But then their remit was expanded to the whole country (not a terrible idea given how small our country is) but unfortunately many of their powers were subsequently watered down.

They still do much of what you say, they issue out licenses for taxis, all bus services, Luas etc. and over the years they have been taking increased control away from other companies and placing it under themselves, RTPI, Leap are both NTA projects and it looks like soon they will take over ownership of all bus stops and the fare box.

So all certainly steps in the right direction. But the changes are painfully slow and most importantly they have no control of the capital expenditure on major infrastructure.

At best they can plan and recommend, but in the end it is the politicians in power who make the decisions on the big projects.

cdebru

noelfirl wrote: »

So the one real thing that stuck out at me from that report:



With regards the radial routes, I know they preface with a catchall that supply will be increased as required by demand, but a 10 minute peak frequency per corridor in 2035 is not a very positive, future-proofing outlook, is it? Particularly where peak hours in this country seem to be defined very tightly and very limited (IMO). I also recognise that it refers to core routes, and that there will be other routes running along the same corridors, but it still seems a bit weak. I would have hoped that something like every 6-8 minutes on core corridors during peak hours would have been a target for 20 years down the line.

The orbital proposal is better, if they follow through in it. The idealised innermost orbital corridor seems a bit cut short though on either end.

EDIT: and now that I look even closer, the second orbital corridor appears to be going through the park! That'll be the day...

The problem with increasing as demand dictates is the lag between when you actually need them and when they arrive, arguably various Dublin Bus routes have had a demand for increased services and revised timetables for the last year or two but nothing has really been provided, many of the timetables that were cut and running times reduced when traffic and passenger numbers were falling are now completely unworkable, in the mean time passengers will switch to private cars and further increase the problem, and make it much more difficult to entice them back to public transport.

The NTA needs to be more proactive not wait for increased demand before starting the process of increasing capacity, of course that costs money though.

ClovenHoof

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Most people on this forum are passionate about public transport in Dublin so a report like this should typically be something to pour over and discuss etc.

Instead the reactions have been nothing but negative as no one on here believes any of it will happen.

I think that is a shocking indictment of how poor public transport planning in this country, that what should be significant reports meriting debate just get ridiculed.

This is not a reflection on the posters on here as most would embrace a report like this if we hadn't seen them for at least 25 years with no follow through.

Very well said.

Fool me once, shame on me, fool me 50 times...

strassenwo!f

The previous 15-year plan was produced by the Dublin Transportation Office (DTO) back in 2001, to cover the period from 2000 to 2015. The DTO was subsequently subsumed into the NTA. The rail-based part of this plan is summarised on the link below, on page 59.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/archive/platform_for_change_2001.pdf

At the time, the DART, the Maynooth line and the commuter line to/from Heuston were in operation, and the LUAS red and green lines were being constructed.

It appears that for all of the plans outlined in the DTO's map, very little was achieved over that period.

There was the extension of the LUAS a couple of kilometres to the Point Depot, and there was a branch of the LUAS to Citywest, though this was planned to be a metro branch line in the DTO plan. And there was a branch built off the main Maynooth line, to Dunboyne.

That seems to be pretty much it.

In other words, a small fraction of what was proposed in the DTO plan.

The plan also included the interconnector (not built), a line to Navan (not built) several metro lines (not built) and quite a number of LUAS lines (also not built).

It would seem to me that it would be appropriate for the NTA to commission, and make public, an independent appraisal of the previous 15-year plan, before coming up with a new one.

Obviously there were some financially very rough years experienced in the lifetime of the 2000-2015 plan, and the plans had to be curtailed. Nobody (outside the DTO) would have realistically expected that it would all have been built in that timeframe, even without the country's subsequent financial problems. But a proper assessment of whether the DTO's plans in 2001 were in any way realistic could be very useful.

Otherwise you end up with an organisation like the DTO/NTA carving out entire working lives for its employees producing unrealistic plans, but not actually delivering very much for the city. And you have all the other people in the city living in hope of things which very probably won't be delivered.

Hotblack Desiato

fly_agaric wrote: »

Well you can't win I suppose. As mentioned it was to be the "Dublin Transport Authority" but politicians felt it was wrong/"regionist" or showed the Dublin-centric mindset or whatever and called it the "National" authority though most of what it does seems to relate to Dublin's transport.

Most of what it talks about doing, you mean

cgcsb

What I found interesting is the proposal to run orbital buses across the M50 westlink bridge, I wonder how that'd work given the volume of traffic at peak times and the delay that would cause to services. I'd much rather see a public transport only bridge.road from Lucan to Blanch, it'd make PT much more competitve with the car for suburb-suburb journeys.

Isn't it strange how the busiest road in the state has no PT competition.