Who to raise a further appeal with irish rail

lifeandtimes

Hi

Can anyone let me know where I can raise a further appeal with irish rail if I'm not happy with the finding a if their own appeal?

Is there a regulatory body for irish rail?

Thanks

LXFlyer

The National Transport Authority

flyingsnail

Just bear in mind that if this appeal relates to a fine it is possible that while you are talking to the NTA that Irish Rail could be proceeding towards a court case.

GM228

lxflyer wrote: »

The National Transport Authority

I don't think the NTA have any powers of arbitration for disputes between the transport companies and the public AFAIK.

GM228

LXFlyer

GM228 wrote: »

I don't think the NTA have any powers of arbitration for disputes between the transport companies and the public AFAIK.

GM228

It depends upon the nature of the issue.

lifeandtimes

funny enough i now have photographic evidence of the issue i was disputing regarding my fine, hope fully irish rail pull the finger out and realize im in the right and resolve this matter.

however i will raise this to the NTA should i not get a satisfactory resolution

Gatling

Why were you issued a fine

lifeandtimes

Gatling wrote: »

Why were you issued a fine

my leap was found not to have tagged on but i tried to and the machine gave an error and stalled,the door next to it was open and i assumed it was known issue,there was no one in the station to help so i went through and didnt tag on the other machine as i didnt want to be charged twice.

Unfortunately they didnt care about my story,said i didnt tag on when the machine was working,now i have evidence its been broke since then as well so i will see what they say and take it further

Peppa Pig

lifeandtimes wrote: »

my leap was found not to have tagged on but i tried to and the machine gave an error and stalled,the door next to it was open and i assumed it was known issue,there was no one in the station to help so i went through and didnt tag on the other machine as i didnt want to be charged twice.

Unfortunately they didnt care about my story,said i didnt tag on when the machine was working,now i have evidence its been broke since then as well so i will see what they say and take it further

Was the other validator broken as well and have you evidence for that?

cython

lifeandtimes wrote: »

my leap was found not to have tagged on but i tried to and the machine gave an error and stalled,the door next to it was open and i assumed it was known issue,there was no one in the station to help so i went through and didnt tag on the other machine as i didnt want to be charged twice.

Unfortunately they didnt care about my story,said i didnt tag on when the machine was working,now i have evidence its been broke since then as well so i will see what they say and take it further

Not really clear from your comment, but do you mean you have evidence that it has been broken ever since then (i.e. has not functioned since your issue), or simply that it has broken again since then? If the latter, then it really has no bearing on it being broken for you, and if the former, it still doesn't prove it was broken at that time......

lifeandtimes

cython wrote: »

Not really clear from your comment, but do you mean you have evidence that it has been broken ever since then (i.e. has not functioned since your issue), or simply that it has broken again since then? If the latter, then it really has no bearing on it being broken for you, and if the former, it still doesn't prove it was broken at that time......

that it has broken down again since then, i believe it would, their initial investigation confirmed that there was no issue with this validator on the day in question, i refute that and i now have evidence that it has broke again which would indicate there is an issue with this machine.

I didnt tag on onto the other machine as i didnt want to be charged twice, i was advised after the fact that people cannot be charged twice at the same station, something i wasn't aware of as to be honest how would you know unless you tried to tag on twice for some reason,also no signage to advise of this, also i am a daily user of their service and other people have told me similar things have happened to them and they have been let off due to their frequent usage, i however have not and am being made an example of when really i didnt do anything intentionally wrong

cython

lifeandtimes wrote: »

that it has broken down again since then, i believe it would, their initial investigation confirmed that there was no issue with this validator on the day in question, i refute that and i now have evidence that it has broke again which would indicate there is an issue with this machine.

All that it proves is that the machines are capable of breaking down, not that there was an undetected issue "on the day in question". Of course if you have evidence that it was broken and that they also "detected" or deemed it working in that incident, then it might have some bearing, but you've made no reference to them claiming this in the second instance. Not to mention that it only suggests a persistent issue if your claim of the broken validator holds true, which in the eyes of Irish Rail it apparently doesn't. Without that, the later occurrence is an isolated incident at the moment.

GM228

lifeandtimes wrote: »

my leap was found not to have tagged on but i tried to and the machine gave an error and stalled,the door next to it was open and i assumed it was known issue,there was no one in the station to help so i went through and didnt tag on the other machine as i didnt want to be charged twice.

Unfortunately they didnt care about my story,said i didnt tag on when the machine was working,now i have evidence its been broke since then as well so i will see what they say and take it further

Was the other machine working (or appeared to be working?).

Assuming it was working then you knowingly went through after receiving an error message and didn't attempt to log on again. An error message indicates an error either with the card or machine and does not confirm you tagged on.

It's like putting money in a machine, getting an error and keep going without a ticket or proof of purchase.

The problem here is the onus is on you (unfortunately) to confirm you have tagged on correctly. If the tag on does not work you are required to either tag on on another machine or use the TVM (assuming there is one) or booking office (which in this case was closed) to purchase a ticket. Failing all the above only then could you board a train and pay at destination.

You have stated yourself that you didn't tag on using the second machine (again I'm assuming it was working) so that will play in IEs favour as you are admitting you didn't attempt to tag on and knowingly boarded a train without a valid ticket/tag on. I'm not taking sides here, just pointing out the facts so don't have a go at me, the unfortunate problem here is if you don't have the screen on the machine showing you tagged on then you don't have a valid ticket to travel!

Photo evidence means nothing unless it's CCTV at the time of the incident, even CCTV may prove the first machine was faulty, but it will also show you ignored the second machine!

GM228

lifeandtimes

GM228 wrote: »

Was the other machine working (or appeared to be working?).

Assuming it was working then you knowingly went through after receiving an error message and didn't attempt to log on again. An error message indicates an error either with the card or machine and does not confirm you tagged on.

It's like putting money in a machine, getting an error and keep going without a ticket or proof of purchase.

The problem here is the onus is on you (unfortunately) to confirm you have tagged on correctly. If the tag on does not work you are required to either tag on on another machine or use the TVM (assuming there is one) or booking office (which in this case was closed) to purchase a ticket. Failing all the above only then could you board a train and pay at destination.

You have stated yourself that you didn't tag on using the second machine (again I'm assuming it was working) so that will play in IEs favour as you are admitting you didn't attempt to tag on and knowingly boarded a train without a valid ticket/tag on. I'm not taking sides here, just pointing out the facts so don't have a go at me, the unfortunate problem here is if you don't have the screen on the machine showing you tagged on then you don't have a valid ticket to travel!

Photo evidence means nothing unless it's CCTV at the time of the incident, even CCTV may prove the first machine was faulty, but it will also show you ignored the second machine!

GM228

The point is highlighted in bold is another issue i raised, i confirmed the machine was broken with the inspector however he was having none of it and fined me but i was not afford he opportunity to pay the station as is point 8 in the fixed penalty leaflet

Ticket vending machines are in operation through out our
Network. These machines are monitored and regularly
maintained to ensure that they are operational. However
in the event that the booking office is closed or the ticket
Vending Machines are not working, you will then be
required to pay for your journey on the train or at your
destination. Failure or refusal to pay the required fare
will result in and Penalty being issued .

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/fixedpenaltydlleaflet1.pdf?v=grhucpe

CCTV will confirm i tried to tag on correctly but will also show me walking through the other validator, in my defense the door was open for this one which made me believe there was a known issue and customers could go through and resolve at their destination but i was also unaware that tagging on twice does not incur two charges which could be considered my own negligence however how was i too know this if i never experienced this issue before?

Also no i will not have a go at you, i appreciate your input on this matter

GM228

lifeandtimes wrote: »

The point is highlighted in bold is another issue i raised, i confirmed the machine was broken with the inspector however he was having none of it and fined me but i was not afford he opportunity to pay the station as is point 8 in the fixed penalty leaflet

Ticket vending machines are in operation through out our
Network. These machines are monitored and regularly
maintained to ensure that they are operational. However
in the event that the booking office is closed or the ticket
Vending Machines are not working, you will then be
required to pay for your journey on the train or at your
destination. Failure or refusal to pay the required fare
will result in and Penalty being issued .

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/fixedpenaltydlleaflet1.pdf?v=grhucpe

CCTV will confirm i tried to tag on correctly but will also show me walking through the other validator, in my defense the door was open for this one which made me believe there was a known issue and customers could go through and resolve at their destination but i was also unaware that tagging on twice does not incur two charges which could be considered my own negligence however how was i too know this if i never experienced this issue before?

Also no i will not have a go at you, i appreciate your input on this matter

The problem with point 8 is that paying at destination is a final solution, if the TVM and other machine were operational then unfortunately you didn't satisfy the requirements of point 8!

Again regarding the CCTV, it shows you tried to tag-on, but you are required to confirm the tag-on by checking the screen, and also shows you walk past the second machine.

From what I have read on this Forum over and over again IE do not accept the excuse (for want of a better word!) of I didn't know and seem to take the same approach if people are genuine or not.

GM228

lifeandtimes

GM228 wrote: »

The problem with point 8 is that paying at destination is a final solution, if the TVM and other machine were operational then unfortunately you didn't satisfy the requirements of point 8!

Again regarding the CCTV, it shows you tried to tag-on, but you are required to confirm the tag-on by checking the screen, and also shows you walk past the second machine.

From what I have read on this Forum over and over again IE do not accept the excuse (for want of a better word!) of I didn't know and seem to take the same approach if people are genuine or not.

GM228

my issue was the machine said please wait and remained stationary and didnt do anything,the doors remained closed and i couldn't retag on at that machine, i entered through the other door as it was open when really it shouldnt be and i didnt tag as i didnt want to be charge twice,if the doors had been closed i would have no option but to tage on again and thus everything would have been ok,however there door was open on this validator and there is no where in there terms and conditions that states customer should know that tagging on twice will not incurr two charges, also with point 8 i advised the issue with the machine,he didn't believe me, in this instance though how can they confirm that the machine is broke will im still at the station? the told me it takes 24 hours to download the information on the validators so in what instance do customers have the option for point 8 to be applied?

GM228

lifeandtimes wrote: »

in what instance do customers have the option for point 8 to be applied?

If the machines are broke AND the TVM is broke and the booking office is closed only then does option 8 apply, in other words if there was NO possability of buying a ticket.

Another thing to note is the T&Cs state when tagging on that you must successfully "touch-on" and receive either a verbal or audio confirmation and failure to do so will imply a penalty charge!

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, the problem is the rules don't and that is all any inspector/appeals process will go by.

GM228

Hilly Bill

lifeandtimes wrote: »

my leap was found not to have tagged on but i tried to and the machine gave an error and stalled,the door next to it was open and i assumed it was known issue,there was no one in the station to help so i went through and didnt tag on the other machine as i didnt want to be charged twice.

Unfortunately they didnt care about my story,said i didnt tag on when the machine was working,now i have evidence its been broke since then as well so i will see what they say and take it further

I can see why your appeal failed. You failed to tag on. I can't see the Nta getting involved.