XYZ insurance & autorenewal of policy

ch750536

I insured my car Sept 2014 with XYZ Insurance Co. for €380 euro.
June 2015 car was scrapped.
August - October 2015 I worked away.
Returned to lots of mail, one of them being a letter from XYZ Insurance Co. with a quote of €1180 stating 'no need to do anything, we will automatically renew your insurance'.
They did, & they charged me (2 of 10 installments = €300ish).

So I call and tell them no thanks & give me a refund. They state I have accepted the renewal as I didn't respond to them. I explain my circumstances.

They agree to cancel the policy & refund me if I send a letter asking them to cancel the policy.

I refused:
#1 - Sending a letter cancelling a policy is admitting we formed a contract for the policy, a possible headache later.
#2 - Being an arse, no I'm not doing anything, give me my money back.

I've notified them on the phone & email that they have 14 days to give me a refund else I will proceed through the courts.

Any thoughts on this?

mail
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Policy Number xxxxxx/xx/xx

I have spoken with Ms. A today, your CS representative. She informs me that I will not be refunded for monies taken from my account despite:

• The vehicle in question not existing
• No contract being formed between myself (deleted) and yourselves (XYZ Insurance Co.) for any policy other than the previously expired one.

I am giving notice that if I am not refunded all monies taken under of the non-contractual policy within 14 days (23rd October) then I will commence proceedings to reclaim them.

I would like to add that Ms. A was very polite and diligent and in no way accountable.

Regards,

whippet

question 1 - did you inform them that the car was scrapped in June 2015?
question 2 - did you read the terms and conditions of the policy you took out in 2014
question 3 - did the terms and conditions of the policy you agreed to and took out in 2014 state that the insurance will auto-renew?
question 4 - how could the insurance company know that you wouldn't receive mail at the address that you gave them for correspondence?
question 5 - did you notify the insurance company that you wouldn't be able to receive mail?
question 6 - can you not accept that you are somewhat at fault?

Grolschevik

Question 7: Why not just send them the letter and save yourself all the hassle?

ch750536

whippet wrote: »

question 1 - did you inform them that the car was scrapped in June 2015?

No.

whippet wrote: »

question 2 - did you read the terms and conditions of the policy you took out in 2014

Yes

whippet wrote: »

question 3 - did the terms and conditions of the policy you agreed to and took out in 2014 state that the insurance will auto-renew?

No

whippet wrote: »

question 4 - how could the insurance company know that you wouldn't receive mail at the address that you gave them for correspondence?

Not relevant. A contract is agreed to between 2 parties. Because 1 is not there does not mean it is implied they agree.

whippet wrote: »

question 5 - did you notify the insurance company that you wouldn't be able to receive mail?

No

whippet wrote: »

question 6 - can you not accept that you are somewhat at fault?

No.

ch750536

Grolschevik wrote: »

Question 7: Why not just send them the letter and save yourself all the hassle?

#1 - This would be admitting that I took it out in the first place. There may be consequences.
#2 - Why the hell should I? They chose to charge me for a contract I didn't agree to without any letter so it must be their issue alone that requires one to cancel it.

ted1

ch750536 wrote: »

#1 - This would be admitting that I took it out in the first place. There may be consequences.
#2 - Why the hell should I? They chose to charge me for a contract I didn't agree to without any letter so it must be their issue alone that requires one to cancel it.

#2 is really a stupid reason that could cost you.

Ring them and tell them the car doesn't exist and hasn't since June last year. Did you get an end of life certificate?
Ask them is it possible to make a claim for a vehicle that is scrapped . " thus your policy is void as no claim can be made on it. If they disagree tell them your going to the ombudsman

whippet

ch750536 wrote: »

#1 - This would be admitting that I took it out in the first place. There may be consequences.
#2 - Why the hell should I? They chose to charge me for a contract I didn't agree to without any letter so it must be their issue alone that requires one to cancel it.

you really should check out the terms and conditions ....

http://www.nononsense.ie/media/NoNonsense2014/pdf/NN-terms-of-business.pdf

Page 2

HowcanIpayformy insurance?
You can pay for your insurance policy with us:
• annually by credit card or debit card, or
• by direct debit instalments (availability subject to acceptance criteria).
If we offer you direct debit payments, the first payment must be paid by credit or debit card. The direct debit service charge can vary but you will be told what it is before you complete the direct debit instalment agreement.
Direct debit payments may also continue to be collected automatically when your policy falls due for renewal. If you do not wish to continue to pay by direct debit, you should let us know.
Please note that if you fail to pay premiums that are due, or if a direct debit is unpaid, we may cancel your insurance cover in line with the terms and conditions of your policy. If your policy is cancelled this may affect your eligibility for insurance with us as well as other insurers in the future.

http://www.nononsense.ie/media/NoNonsense2014/pdf/NN-Car-Policy-Booklet.pdf

From General Conditions of the Policy

1. Your Duty
B. You must notify us as soon as possible of any change which may affect this insurance. In particular if
- you no longer own the insured car

So .. you really don't have a leg to stand on.

ch750536

The agreement was for €380 insurance policy for 1 year. They didn't renew this policy, they started a whole new one. A 300% increase does not fall under the terms of a renewal.

Secondly, even though they 'may' have stated that (I don't have the docs with me today) in the original contract, they changed the terms of the contract by changing the amount. This nullifies any concept of renewal.

Example - if they had quoted €100 for cleaning my windows for 2014, auto renewal and in 2015 they continued to do so charging me €100 + RPI then they would have grounds to state they renewed the contract. Charging me €330 does not represent renewal.
Also, the fact that the house burnt down should be cause for concern.

whippet

ch750536 wrote: »

The agreement was for €380 insurance policy for 1 year. They didn't renew this policy, they started a whole new one. A 300% increase does not fall under the terms of a renewal.

Secondly, even though they 'may' have stated that (I don't have the docs with me today) in the original contract, they changed the terms of the contract by changing the amount. This nullifies any concept of renewal.

Example - if they had quoted €100 for cleaning my windows for 2014, auto renewal and in 2015 they continued to do so charging me €100 + RPI then they would have grounds to state they renewed the contract. Charging me €330 does not represent renewal.
Also, the fact that the house burnt down should be cause for concern.

well then off to court with you ..... you are so convinced you are correct you'll have nothing to loose.

Uno my Uno.

So they offered you a refund and you decided that it wasn't good enough? Instead you want them to give you a refund and admit they were wrong?

Take the money.

ch750536

Meeting with a contracts guy in the morning so will know more then and get back to you all.

seamus

You could actually lose in court. Distance selling regulations may actually permit them to send you, "Please cancel if you wish to stop" requests and then charge you if you fail to respond.
Yes, you weren't available but a court might say that it was your responsibility to appoint someone to attend to your affairs during your temporary absence, especially since you had an active insurance policy at the time that you left which you knew would be due for renewal during that time.

You have been offered an easy and painless way out of this, yet you're opting to go the painful way out, with the chance that you may not win.

Forget about this "forming a contract" nonsense, wherever you heard it from. If you want, you can even write, "Please cancel this policy as I did not accept the renewal, therefore I do not believe a contract exists". Don't bother going to meet a "contracts guy" (though I'd suggest a solicitor is a better idea). You've already spent more time and money on this issue than you would if you wrote a letter.

For the cost of 5 minutes writing a letter, some paper and a stamp, you'll get a full refund even though it was probably your mess up in the first place.

ch750536

ch750536 wrote: »

Meeting with a contracts guy in the morning so will know more then and get back to you all.

What the hell is a "contracts guy".

I assume it's some sort of euphemism for spoofer.

Await more information with excitement frankly

thebiglad

If you cannot them to give you a refund (which I don't think is established) write a formal letter of complaint stating you will refer the matter to the Insurance Ombudsman - if they do not refund you then, send the letter to Ombudsman who will adjudicate and rule.

It is free of charge and no risk to you - you are not bound by the ruling - the Insurer is.

If you do want to proceed to court you will have to prepare and prove all of what the insurer is asking for anyhow so not sure what you expect to achieve, doubt you will get compensation.

The Ombudsman is there for incidents like this and given the facts will probably find in your favour (presuming the formal complaint does not see Non Nonsense thrown the towel own anyhow).

They will want to establish that you have not been driving the car round and now want to cancel the policy having had benefit of the cover - perfectly reasonable request.

You will find that100% of insurers in motor and household will auto renew the policies if their is a direct debit in place

Graham

thebiglad wrote: »

If you cannot them to give you a refund (which I don't think is established) write a formal letter of complaint stating you will refer the matter to the Insurance Ombudsman - if they do not refund you then, send the letter to Ombudsman who will adjudicate and rule.

If I remember correctly you need to attempt to resolve the issue with the insurers directly and follow their complaints procedure before the ombudsman will get involved.

It sounds like the insurers have already offered a resolution but the policy holder doesn't want to cooperate in an attempt to make a point.

UrbanFox

Follow ted1's line.

As the subject matter of the insurance has been destroyed there is no basis for any valid contract.

Peregrinus

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

So they offered you a refund and you decided that it wasn't good enough? Instead you want them to give you a refund and admit they were wrong?

Seems like a sound strategy to me. What could possibly go wrong?

ch750536 wrote: »

Meeting with a contracts guy in the morning so will know more then and get back to you all.

Ah, a "contracts guy". You'll be right, so.

All this has a kind of horrible fascination, like watching a train crash that you can do nothing to prevent.

To Elland Back

UrbanFox wrote: »

Follow ted1's line.

As the subject matter of the insurance has been destroyed there is no basis for any valid contract.

This is the only valid reason for your insurer to refund your money. Have your proofs available and discuss it with them in a reasonable manner

ch750536

The advice I received is that when an automatic renewal of any contract is performed the resulting contract must resemble the original contract.
It was his opinion that the 300% increase alone was enough to nullify any concept of renewal but he also spotted that the policy was different. These two things combined means a judge would most likely agree that their offer was not a renewal but a new policy and therefore a new agreement must be met.

He did also add that I should stop being 'an arse' about it though and follow proper channels.

ch750536

Just opened the mail, a cheque for the full amount outstanding. Am pleased with the outcome.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Carawaystick

fbd's brand name seems misleading...

ch750536

Additional letter this morning confirming the policy lapsed and was not renewed.

Charlie George

A similar thing just happened to me,i opened my renewal and it went from e305 to e729 with the same line that they will automatically take money from my account every month,these crowd are some knackers,i lost it with the person i rang(who was fine and ignorant when i told him i didn't want to renew),is there anywhere that these crowd can be complained to,this sort of carry-on is not acceptable.

Graham

Charlie George wrote: »

A similar thing just happened to me,i opened my renewal and it went from e305 to e729 with the same line that they will automatically take money from my account every month,these crowd are some knackers,i lost it with the person i rang(who was fine and ignorant when i told him i didn't want to renew),is there anywhere that these crowd can be complained to,this sort of carry-on is not acceptable.

The alternative is for the insurance companies not to auto-renew, this would be quickly followed by a dozen posts from people complaining they'd been done for driving without insurance.

I can understand why you're ticked off about the massive increase btw but that's a different discussion.

ohnonotgmail

Do insurance companies not sent out renewal notices a couple of weeks in advance and give you the option to cancel the renewal before it is due?

To Elland Back

Charlie George wrote: »

A similar thing just happened to me,i opened my renewal .

When did you get the letter and what was your renewal date?

seamus

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Do insurance companies not sent out renewal notices a couple of weeks in advance and give you the option to cancel the renewal before it is due?

They're legally required to. Mary Harney brought in legislation which requires motor insurers to write to you 15 days in advance of your insurance expiring to notify you of the full details of your renewal, or an explanation as to why they won't renew, if that's the case.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Charlie George

To Elland Back wrote: »

When did you get the letter and what was your renewal date?

Ya got it about 10 days ago and my policy is up this week,they are some shower,still pisssed off with them.

ohnonotgmail

Charlie George wrote: »

Ya got it about 10 days ago and my policy is up this week,they are some shower,still pisssed off with them.

Pissed off at them for giving you plenty of time to not renew and find alternative cover?

Charlie George

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Pissed off at them for giving you plenty of time to not renew and find alternative cover?

No pisssed off for trying to scam me,the majority of people don't check out prices for renewl they just go with the crew they were with the year before,nonsense know this and are trying to pull a fast one with people that pay by direct debit.

Graham

Charlie George wrote: »

No pisssed off for trying to scam me,the majority of people don't check out prices for renewl they just go with the crew they were with the year before,nonsense know this and are trying to pull a fast one with people that pay by direct debit.

The sneaky feckers trying to slip that past you by writing to you and warning you about it. :rolleyes:

To Elland Back

Charlie George wrote: »

No pisssed off for trying to scam me,the majority of people don't check out prices for renewl they just go with the crew they were with the year before,nonsense know this and are trying to pull a fast one with people that pay by direct debit.

I think you need to accept that you are very much in the minority these days if you do that