List Earldoms in Ireland

whydoibother

I was wondering if someone here would be well versed in Irish aristocracy and could list all earldoms in Ireland. I have googled it but there is at least one I cannot find on Wikipedia...

Peregrinus

Do you mean that you know of at least one Irish earldom that you can't find on wikipedia, or you know that there is at least one list of earldoms but you can't find that list on wikipedia?

Also, you need to be clear about what you're looking for. Are you looking for a list of all the earldoms in the Peerage of Ireland? Or a list of all the people who held an earldom in the peerage of any country, and who lived in Ireland?

whydoibother

Peregrinus wrote: »

Do you mean that you know of at least one Irish earldom that you can't find on wikipedia, or you know that there is at least one list of earldoms but you can't find that list on wikipedia?

Also, you need to be clear about what you're looking for. Are you looking for a list of all the earldoms in the Peerage of Ireland? Or a list of all the people who held an earldom in the peerage of any country, and who lived in Ireland?

Ok, i will be very clear. Is there such a thing as the earldom of Convoy in Donegal? And a Lord of derryveagh?
Thank you.

Del.Monte

If they can't be found with a Google search chances are they never existed - least ways that would be my experience of searching for anything.

Peregrinus

Well, what reason do we have to think that either of these titles ever existed? And when? And what individual or family used them? Looking for evidence is much easier if we have some idea of where to look.

whydoibother

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, what reason do we have to think that either of these titles ever existed? And when? And what individual or family used them? Looking for evidence is much easier if we have some idea of where to look.

I was told the earldom of Convoy in Donegal was created by Charles I in 1601. Only after that, I realised that Charles I was born in 1600 so he would be 1 year old then, therefore as far as my common sense would dictate, a 1 year old would not be able to create an earl. Having done more research on the subject by using google searches, and having found no trace of such an earl of convoy, I suspect the guy who told me such an earldom existed and still exists in Ireland is simply having me on. However, before I'd call a man a liar, I thought I'd ask those here who may be experts in these subject matters to enlighten me. So far, I seem to have failed to catch the attention of a real expert. Kind regards.

Peregrinus

Not only was the infant who was to become Charles I only 1 year old at the time; he was also the son of the King of Scotland but had no position in England. At the time the two countries were still separate kingdoms. Scotland had no role in, or claim to, Ireland. So there is no way that Charles, or anyone in his family, would have been created earldoms in Ireland in 1601.

Elizabeth I was on the throne of England at the time. She did create Irish earldoms, but not very many, and they were generally given only to families which were already large, wealthy and powerful. She made Hugh O'Neill Earl of Tyrone, for example, and Rory O'Donnell Earl of Tyrconnell. Did your source mention the family to whom the Earldom of Convoy was supposedly granted?

Charles I didn't come to the English throne until 1625. He created a number of Irish earldoms (including the Earldom of Donegall) but I can find no record of an Earldom of Convoy.

whydoibother

Peregrinus wrote: »

Did your source mention the family to whom the Earldom of Convoy was supposedly granted?

Yes, my source indicated that the Bonner family from Donegal holds this title. The old family name is Bonnaire, which I believe is Norman in origin.

Thanks.

Peregrinus

There are plenty of Bonners in that part of the world, right enough, but I've not seen any evidence that any of them was ever granted an earldom, and the details of the story you have been told, basically, don't hang together.

whydoibother

Peregrinus wrote: »

There are plenty of Bonners in that part of the world, right enough, but I've not seen any evidence that any of them was ever granted an earldom, and the details of the story you have been told, basically, don't hang together.

Yes, I agree with you. Thanks.

gaiscioch

whydoibother wrote: »

Yes, my source indicated that the Bonner family from Donegal holds this title. The old family name is Bonnaire, which I believe is Norman in origin.

Thanks.

I never heard of this origin of the Donegal Bonner family. Ó Cnáimhsí, anglicised Kneafsey and Bonner via mistranslation of cnámh, bone (similar to Mac Gabhann becoming both McGowan and Smith in south Ulster through a gabha being a 'smith') is the generally accepted origin of the Donegal Bonners. What's your source for the non-Irish origin?

Bonner surname

The Montgomery family had some gentry status it appears and lived in Convoy House, where they replaced the Nesbitt family.

tabbey

I suspect that this is one of the countless urban myths, or in this case, rural myths, that infest Irish beliefs. However there is often more than a grain of truth associated with these stories. The person might not have been an earl, but perhaps had some lesser title; the person might have had some loose connection with Convoy; somebody connected to the family could have worked for, or been connected in some way with the aristocracy. Over the generations, people remember part of the story, and try to make details to fit. Somebody else hears the story, believes it to be gospel, and passes it on further.
I will try to remember to look into it over the coming days.

tabbey

The Montgomery family which occupied Convoy House, owned nearly nine thousand acres in the 1870s. This would be enough to cause many poor locals to regard the landlord as a lord.
An ancestor of this family was George Montgomery, who became Bishop of Raphoe in 1604. He would have been entitled to sit in the House of Lords as a bishop of the established church.
Therefore people who heard that the Montgomery family were descended from a lord, (Lord Bishop), would assume that the title was hereditary, and that one of the family was still an aristocrat. Nobody would have been sure of such a title, but might have called the landlord an earl, just in case he took offence, in deference to a person of considerable local power.

whydoibother

tabbey wrote: »

The Montgomery family which occupied Convoy House, owned nearly nine thousand acres in the 1870s. This would be enough to cause many poor locals to regard the landlord as a lord.
An ancestor of this family was George Montgomery, who became Bishop of Raphoe in 1604. He would have been entitled to sit in the House of Lords as a bishop of the established church.
Therefore people who heard that the Montgomery family were descended from a lord, (Lord Bishop), would assume that the title was hereditary, and that one of the family was still an aristocrat. Nobody would have been sure of such a title, but might have called the landlord an earl, just in case he took offence, in deference to a person of considerable local power.

I understand where you're coming from but in this case the story goes that the actual title of earl of convoy was given to the Bonner family (De Bonnaire at the time) by King Charles I. This is what my source claims and I find it hard to believe because, upon thorough research online, I have found no trace of such a thing as the earldom of convoy or of any Lord Derryveagh. If you have proof of the contrary, please share that with us.

pinkypinky

I've just checked Burke (107th ed), DeBretts (1948) and Walfords (1919) - no earldom or anything called Convoy or Derryveagh. In case they were landed gentry, I checked Burkes LGI 1912, also nothing.

These books wouldn't include extinct peerages.

tabbey

While not an expert, and acknowledging that titles, especially earldoms have become extinct for lack of a male heir, I would be reasonably confident that the titles referred to are myths, and that the name variant De Bonnaire is a debonair myth.
The story is just that, a story, a myth, based on ignorance of the land owning elite, among ordinary people, who until the mid 1800s, were largely illiterate, and quite unable to differentiate an earl from a viscount, a marquess, a baron, baronet or knight.

gaiscioch

pinkypinky wrote: »

I've just checked Burke (107th ed), DeBretts (1948) and Walfords (1919) - no earldom or anything called Convoy or Derryveagh. In case they were landed gentry, I checked Burkes LGI 1912, also nothing.

These books wouldn't include extinct peerages.

Bernard Burke, A Genealogical History of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages of the British Empire (Harrison, 1866)

John deBrett, 'Extinct Peerage of Ireland', Debrett's Peerage of England, Scotland, and Ireland (London, 1820)