Isn't it time we said goodbye class stereotypes

steddyeddy

Working class and middle class have no real meaning IMHO. There's nothing to be gained by keeping these negative stereotypes. I'm not denying socio-economic status exists but I think people associate certain traits with certain classes and I don't think that rings true.

The Backwards Man

Donegal people are friendly, hardworking and dynamite in the sack.

Now that's a class stereotype

Pink Lemons

How are the rich people going to tell us who to hate without them?

I agree that there is nothing to be gained from having defined and separate social classes but I don't think it's about 'gain'. They simply exist. As part of the society we live in there will always be a class structure.

ElvisChrist6

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree that there is nothing to be gained from having defined and separate social classes but I don't think it's about 'gain'. They simply exist. As part of the society we live in there will always be a class structure.

That's the thing... I don't think Steddyeddy was necessarily saying otherwise, but I know quite a few people who have said there's no class system here. It's very easy to think class isn't an issue here when you're not kept the victim of it. As you say, it's all well and good saying we don't benefit from it, but it's too deep-rooted for well-meaning hand holding and Kumbayas to fix or get rid of.

steddyeddy

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree that there is nothing to be gained from having defined and separate social classes but I don't think it's about 'gain'. They simply exist. As part of the society we live in there will always be a class structure.

I have a problem with it when they describe children as working or middle class despite not having a job. Then people say it's a set of shared ideals but then some people say it's about money and a working class kid who becomes a doctor will still be working class ect.I think it's just something for people to hold onto.

KomradeBishop

The class stereotypes certainly don't fit their definitions, as they were defined in a time when society was very different socially/economically/politically to how it is now, but the concept/reality of class differences and 'class warfare' between different sections of society, is alive and well - it's pretty much what the economic crisis and its aftermath was.

I mean, just look at QE as a policy: It's basically pissing money at the wealthy, to the detriment of the rest of society - and this is supposed to be one of the primary solutions to the economic crisis...it's an utterly ridiculous situation...and people think the idea of class/class-warfare are out of date?

Letree

Middle class and genuine working class are morphing, a new underclass/welfare class is emerging though.

steddyeddy

Letree wrote: »

Middle class and genuine working class are morphing, a new underclass/welfare class is emerging though.

This. I mean the definitions of class have changed hugely in the last few decades. More and more people have access to college so by definition more working class people are morphing to middle class.

uch

Well I'm Pure Class so I am

The Sidewards Man

Another teacher,student bla bla bla tread op.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

I have a problem with it when they describe children as working or middle class despite not having a job. Then people say it's a set of shared ideals but then some people say it's about money and a working class kid who becomes a doctor will still be working class ect.I think it's just something for people to hold onto.

It is about many different things. Attitude, education, ideals, aspirations. To be honest I never think of myself or my friends in terms of our social class. Certainly it can be something to be held on to particularly if your identity is tied up with your place on the social ladder.

Stheno

Does anyone on here actually understand how people are defined as being a certain class? It's traditionally based on a fathers occupation

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Donegal people are friendly, hardworking and dynamite in the sack.

They are? Is that not like saying that without his money Bill Gates would have sex appeal?

Fleawuss

Isn't there say theory that the middle class is being destroyed and forced down rather than others joining it? The 1% are getting the wealth transfer.

Stheno

Fleawuss wrote: »

Isn't there say theory that the middle class is being destroyed and forced down rather than others joining it? The 1% are getting the wealth transfer.

In a world context even the working class here are probably in the 1%

Canadel

Stheno wrote: »

In a world context even the working class here are probably in the 1%

People live and work in a country context, not a world one.

dreamers75

Simple question:

Do you like football or rugby?

Working class answers football, middle class answers rugby.

I hate rugby ****.

Iwasfrozen

steddyeddy wrote: »

Working class and middle class have no real meaning IMHO. There's nothing to be gained by keeping these negative stereotypes. I'm not denying socio-economic status exists but I think people associate certain traits with certain classes and I don't think that rings true.

We should stop calling the least hard working class the working class. That would be a good start. Welfare class would be more apt.

Azalea

dreamers75 wrote: »

Simple question:

Do you like football or rugby?

Working class answers football, middle class answers rugby.

Plenty of middle-class people like football, and sadly for you, what you say about rugby is changing.

"Middle-class" as a pejorative is quite fashionable I find. Very vapid.

One eyed Jack

Hatless wrote: »

"Middle-class" as a pejorative is quite fashionable I find. Very vapid.

Not nearly as fashionable and vapid as some people's claims to be 'second class citizens', when it suits them, and yet the very same people who use that term would be classed as anything but second class citizens. The term is simply a meaningless modern claim to victimhood status.

The class system is useful in determining social mobility, but when it comes down to the individual, some will carry their class like a chip on their shoulder, and some will wear it as a badge of honour. Most people when you offer them the opportunity, are terrible at identifying their own class that they actually fit into, and that's why the social classes appear meaningless to some people, but there's no denying the standard exists.

It's where people identify themselves on that standard which causes the arguments about class. Some people's misidentification causes them to claim victimhood status, and some people's misidentification causes them to carry themselves in an arrogant fashion. Both types of persons are deluding themselves, equally, but in different ways.

the_syco

steddyeddy wrote: »

Working class and middle class have no real meaning IMHO

The middle class being those who work, and the working class being the unemployed, yes?

DEFTLEFTHAND

In the English music scene it was considered cool to be working class, for instance the Aunt Mimi middle class raised John Lennon pretending to be something he wasn't

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU

A more recent eg would the Oasis Blur feud in the 90s, working class Burnage Manchester boys up against the Arts students from London.

steddyeddy

Stheno wrote: »

Does anyone on here actually understand how people are defined as being a certain class? It's traditionally based on a fathers occupation



They are? Is that not like saying that without his money Bill Gates would have sex appeal?

That's where I have a problem with it. Social mobility has progressed so much that you cannot define a son by the education his father could afford to have. For instance a colleague of mine has a waster of a brother, his father was a biochemist, he lived on the dole for 8 years and has an assault conviction. Oh he still lives with his mother at approximately 30 years of age.

He berates those he refers to as working class while referring to himself as middle class. As I said it's something for people with nothing to hold onto.

steddyeddy

the_syco wrote: »

The middle class being those who work, and the working class being the unemployed, yes?

Well you proved my point. Working class people were described as people who expend physical and mental energy to earn a wage. The connection with the unemployed is a new one. The phrases change so much they're meaningless.

steddyeddy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We should stop calling the least hard working class the working class. That would be a good start. Welfare class would be more apt.

Yes I agree completely.

Iwasfrozen

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's where I have a problem with it. Social mobility has progressed so much that you cannot define a son by the education his father could afford to have. For instance a colleague of mine has a waster of a brother, his father was a biochemist, he lived on the dole for 8 years and has an assault conviction. Oh he still lives with his mother at approximately 30 years of age.

He berates those he refers to as working class while referring to himself as middle class. As I said it's something for people with nothing to hold onto.

The classes still exist, they just aren't as hereditary as they once were. I would say your colleagues brother is middle class simply for the fact he's living in his mother's house. If he wasn't he'd probably end up working class.

But the idea that there aren't classes in Ireland, even if they aren't as hereditary as they once were is frankly daft. This is especially true in Dublin where you could almost guess a persons class from their address.

FrStone

The major problem in Ireland with class is the reverse snobbery that exists. The amount of middle class people who will define themselves as working class is unreal.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I just never got what Working Class, Middle Class etc actually meant. When is someone in the category of "rich"?

They actually seem like a lazy way to differentiate between people. Our family at present is made up of what used to be called professionals (another hateful term) but my parents were dirt poor and worked all their lives for very little return. Were we working class and are now middle class? I just don't know. "Working class areas" is often used as a euphemism for estates were very few people are in work.

People seem to like class distinctions or have a need for them as means to separate sections of society but the current Working, Middle etc are just too vague.

Wibbs

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But the idea that there aren't classes in Ireland, even if they aren't as hereditary as they once were is frankly daft.

I would say that few enough of those higher up in the pecking order are particularly hereditary. Not since the foundation of the state anyway. I'd bet that it would be a minority of "D4 types" come from families that had money in say 1900. Most would be more recent accumulators of wealth and education. Class is basically money and education over time(with land accumulation more in play back in the day). Many would be folks whose families moved from more rural areas in the early/mid part of the 20th century, worked hard moved up in the world and now their grandkids are "middle class".

I recall reading a stat that Ireland, Dublin in particular, had one of the highest numbers of elocution teachers in the world back in the 1950's. Presumably to soften what was perceived as the "common" accents? That's not so long ago either. I knew women who had elocution type classes in school into the 80's. It seemed to be more aimed at women. Makes sense as women are more socially mobile as a general rule, or were at least. In ye old days(and not so old) the "class" label in a marriage was much more the husbands position. In the extreme end you see this in your royals. A king marries a commoner and she becomes a queen, the reverse is not the case. Even today if we look at the "D4" style accent which itself has mutated over the years(from more British to more American in tone), it tends to find its most exaggerated expression among young women.

This is especially true in Dublin where you could almost guess a persons class from their address.

True, though that became more of a grey area during the housing boom when some areas were gentrified.

previous user

Hipsters are the new smug elitist class of c@nts, preening narcissists with a trust fund.
gentrification Out!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

previous user wrote: »

Hipsters are the new smug elitist class of c@nts, preening narcissists with a trust fund.
gentrification Out!

Is that a class though? If you cut out the derogatory terms, what defines them? Do many in Ireland have trust funds in the true legal sense of the word?

A Hipster is a term from the 40s that refers to aficionados of jazz or bebop. Hardly a class.

strelok

previous user wrote: »

Hipsters are the new smug elitist class of c@nts, preening narcissists with a trust fund.
gentrification Out!

shouldn't you be out terrifying children in a small shoreditch cafe?

Samaris

Wibbs wrote: »

A king marries a commoner and she becomes a queen, the reverse is not the case.

Unless she's Wallis Simpson!


Although really, just scanning this thread one can see that lazy class stereotypes certainly do exist. How many people have made "witty" one-liners about the working class being the non-working class? I counted at least three (plus one that basically amounted to the "deserving poor"), and that's conservative.

Mind you, stereotyping those perceived as below one in the class structure has existed since time immemorial, so it'd probably be silly to expect anything different.

Iwasfrozen

Samaris wrote: »

]Although really, just scanning this thread one can see that lazy class stereotypes certainly do exist. How many people have made "witty" one-liners about the working class being the non-working class? I counted at least three (plus one that basically amounted to the "deserving poor"), and that's conservative.

It's not a lazy stereotype though, the working class are the most likely to be unemployed and the most likely to be in receipt of state welfare.

steddyeddy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The classes still exist, they just aren't as hereditary as they once were. I would say your colleagues brother is middle class simply for the fact he's living in his mother's house. If he wasn't he'd probably end up working class.

But the idea that there aren't classes in Ireland, even if they aren't as hereditary as they once were is frankly daft. This is especially true in Dublin where you could almost guess a persons class from their address.

You see that would put him in the same class as working professional though. How can that possibly be the case?

One eyed Jack

steddyeddy wrote: »

You see that would put him in the same class as working professional though. How can that possibly be the case?

It's a bit like everyone's individual interpretation of the BMI scales. You have the metrics, but most people when it comes down to an individual level, even though on the BMI scale they would be classed as overweight or obese, etc, they'll tell themselves they don't "look" overweight or obese... and yet, the figures don't lie.

Same thing with the social classes, there is a defined standard, but most people at an individual level don't know which class they fit into, because their perception is based upon those around them, so for example you'll get someone who is unemployed or doesn't have to work because their partner works, identifying themselves as upper class... the Hyacinth Bucket types

Some people tend to forget where they came from, and some people have no idea where they are on the social mobility ladder.

Subcomandante Marcos

Funny thing about class.

Anyone with a Bachelors Degree is considered to be middle class, regardless of their upbringing.

One eyed Jack

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Funny thing about class.

Anyone with a Bachelors Degree is considered to be middle class, regardless of their upbringing.

Unless you mean beans, I've never heard of that classification?

Standard or level of education (or indeed lack thereof) on it's own, wouldn't be a very good indication of a person's class.

steddyeddy

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Unless you mean beans, I've never heard of that classification?

Standard or level of education (or indeed lack thereof) on it's own, wouldn't be a very good indication of a person's class.

To be fair it's a better measure of class than our father's occupation since it relates directly to the person rather than the parent.

Iwasfrozen

steddyeddy wrote: »

You see that would put him in the same class as working professional though. How can that possibly be the case?

Any professional is not working class though.

Canadel

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Unless you mean beans, I've never heard of that classification?

Standard or level of education (or indeed lack thereof) on it's own, wouldn't be a very good indication of a person's class.

Standard or level of education is the one thing that on its own would be a very good indication of a person's class.

Subcomandante Marcos

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Unless you mean beans, I've never heard of that classification?

Standard or level of education (or indeed lack thereof) on it's own, wouldn't be a very good indication of a person's class.

It isn't at all. But in sociology, people who acquire degrees are considered middle class. It's not the only measure of social class, but it's one of a number of ways of determining someone's social class.
It doesn't really make sense but sure there you go.

pmasterson95

steddyeddy wrote: »

To be fair it's a better measure of class than our father's occupation since it relates directly to the person rather than the parent.

But what if someone with a degree is unemployed?
Arent all unemployed the dregs and sub-working class?
The system is ****ed.

Subcomandante Marcos

pmasterson95 wrote: »

But what if someone with a degree is unemployed?
Arent all unemployed the dregs and sub-working class?
The system is ****ed.

You can be unemployed, between jobs and still have a bazillion yoyos in the bank. Are you working class in that case?

What about 40k in the bank? 10k? A morgtage? a Mondeo in the drive? Where's the cut off?

And surely if you're unemployed you're not working class?

The class system we refer to is about 100 years out of relevance.

One eyed Jack

Canadel wrote: »

Standard or level of education is the one thing that on its own would be a very good indication of a person's class.

It wouldn't nowadays really because more and more people are gaining equal access to education, in spite of their social class -


http://www.ul.ie/artsoc/content/ul-student-wins-2014-traveller-pride-award-education


Any time the conversation about class structure comes up, I'm always reminded of this song -

steddyeddy

pmasterson95 wrote: »

But what if someone with a degree is unemployed?
Arent all unemployed the dregs and sub-working class?
The system is ****ed.

The "system" only "worked" when social mobility was close to zero. Then when social mobility improved people tried to hang onto class by saying class= a shared collections of values. Now that's broken down when people who self describe as middle class don't value education or take an interest in expanding their knowledge through self directed learning.

Whitewinged

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It wouldn't nowadays really because more and more people are gaining equal access to education, in spite of their social class -


http://www.ul.ie/artsoc/content/ul-student-wins-2014-traveller-pride-award-education


Any time the conversation about class structure comes up, I'm always reminded of this song -

I was just thinking of that song when reading through the thread

steddyeddy

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It wouldn't nowadays really because more and more people are gaining equal access to education, in spite of their social class -


http://www.ul.ie/artsoc/content/ul-student-wins-2014-traveller-pride-award-education


Any time the conversation about class structure comes up, I'm always reminded of this song -

But Jack you're using a circular argument. You're saying education isn't a good method of estimating social class because people are getting education despite their class. That doesn't work unless you define the parameters that make up a person's class.

Iwasfrozen

steddyeddy wrote: »

The "system" only "worked" when social mobility was close to zero. Then when social mobility improved people tried to hang onto class by saying class= a shared collections of values. Now that's broken down when people who self describe as middle class don't value education or take an interest in expanding their knowledge through self directed learning.

Why are you tying class with education? A much more reliable indicator of a person's class is their wealth. Education is usually correlated with wealth but it's a less reliable frame of reference when discussing the existence of class.

Whitewinged

steddyeddy wrote: »

But Jack you're using a circular argument. You're saying education isn't a good method of estimating social class because people are getting education despite their class. That doesn't work unless you define the parameters that make up a person's class.

I suppose actual income and occupation would be just as equal as education is predicting class among other factors.

Im educated but i dont use that education to generate income so what has that education got to do with my class?

Unless you argue that it is the ability to get educated that is defining the class but that is more open to people nowadays so still not a great factor in determining class alone.

Canadel

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It wouldn't nowadays really because more and more people are gaining equal access to education, in spite of their social class -

More access to education just means more people are entering the middle class, which is a good thing. And while access to education is vital, what is even more important is the value placed on education. I mean, surely with it's city centre location and ease of access, TCD should be over flowing with students from the south and north inner city? -no transport costs, no rent and equal access to Ireland's most reputable university through the equal opportunity CAO system.