Radiator replacment Part

Batzoo

Skip to the end for the actual questions!:)

I had a leaking radiator in the house, radiator burst. Shut the valves on both ends and let it drain. Called a plumber, he arrived and checked it out. Could not replace it there and then as he was too busy but would get the price of a new one and ring me with a quote.

A week goes by, no quote, so I ring his number and get his answer machine. Leave a message asking if he got the quote yet!. Another week same thing. Yesterday he rings me and says it will cost €170. I had looked these radiators up online, single panel, 700x500 and they cost about €30. So it was a bit expensive but I said ok to €170 . He then says +vat, so I told him to shove it up his ?. You would think domestic jobs that are quoted should be inclusive of vat.

Its only a couple of nuts I thought to myself, sure I will do it my self and learn something new.

So up to B and Q to buy a new rad. €38 it cost (Retail). Took it home and opened it to find it does not have the part on the Bottom that connects into the valves. The old radiator has these but they appear to be stuck solid with some Hemp/Horsehair and putty. Could not budge them with a spanner/wrench/Vice grips in that order. Back to B and Q to buy these parts and could not find them on the shelf. Asked three staff members for help. First one says, I am new here and don't know about these things. Second says they cant leave their section and to go to the end of the store and ask for Bill? Went to the end of the store and asked for Bill, The lad said he will try and find him. 10 minutes later, I see the lad helping another customer, as they walk towards me I ask did he find Bill, he looks blankly at me and says "Oh, ya. Hang on". Another 10 minutes He comes back with another lad who I explain the above to and he says "We don't sell those parts, you have to go to a Heating and Plumbing merchant" WTF! They only sell half of what you need. He says I need a tool to take the old parts off the old radiator and promptly shows it to me. It is like a big allen key (but square). Happy, I purchase the tool and travel home to remove the parts.

Unfortunately, the tool is too big for the radiator, and upon inspection, the radiator has no keyed part that a smaller tool would fit anyway.

So now I need to find these bits that go into the bottom of the radiator and allow me to connect the valves to it, but I dont know what the are called or where to get them.

Actual questions...

What are these bits called? and are they easy to come by? Anyone know where and open to the public on a Saturday preferably?
If I do manage to track them down, would putting them into the radiator with PTFE tape suffice or should I use the Hemp Hair/Putty like the old ones.

*Edit, added image...

After extensive searches on google, the part I require goes into both ends of the radiator and looks like this, but not as long as this is an extension...

wilser

Buy a new pair of cheap rad valves and they are included in the pack.

Wearb

Called radiator tails. There can be a couple of different sizes.
Most plumbers will have lots of them thrown around the van, but Wilsers advice is good.

alpha46

Hi Batzoo, part you are looking for is called a tail piece and can be purchased at most plumbing merchants who sell Myson Radiator Valves. You will pick them up in any Heatmerchants, Chadwicks or Dublin providers branch. Tell them you need a tail piece for a Myson Matchmate, Matchmaster or thermostatic Valve. Part number is MRTAILC.

Batzoo

Thanks to all who replied. Done a search for plumbers merchants and seen one in Rialto beside Radionics that was open. Took a picture of the old one and showed it to the guy at the counter. As mentioned above, he said they normally come with valves, and are slightly different depending on the valve. I said I don't fancy changing the valves and he grabbed a box from the shelf. The part that he took out looked exactly what I need so I asked for two of them.

I went to pay and he said I could have them for nothing. Never got anything for nothing before so I think I will buy a Lotto ticket tonight.

Just tried them on the rad and they definitely look like the right part. But now I noticed the Old rad brackets are spaced differently and will need replacing. I will do this later tonight, when I build up the courage to drill the tiles.

Final question, Is the PTFE tape good enough for this or is the Hemp/Compound recommended?

Wearb

Sometimes those brackets can be turned (rotated on their vertical axis) to give a different hanging position using existing holes.
I prefer hemp and compound. I have done them with ptfe, but you need a serious amount of wraps to make the seal.

Batzoo

Wearb wrote: »

Sometimes those brackets can be turned (rotated on their vertical axis) to give a different hanging position using existing holes.
I prefer hemp and compound. I have done them with ptfe, but you need a serious amount of wraps to make the seal.

The brackets were similar to the new ones supplied with the rad, but it was the horizontal distance that was different. I Hung the rad before I saw your recommendation on the hemp/compound and went with the PTFE tape as it seemed easier and less messy for a novice. I only covered all the threading on connectors with two to three wraps before insertion. The thread was lined up correctly and the first few turns were by hand. Then using a spanner tightened all the way. They seem snug and some of the tape was squeezing out on the last few threads.

Once in place, I opened the water inlet valve, then the bleed nut on the rad. Once the all the air seemed out, I closed the bleed, and opened the outlet valve, all the time checking the four points in the rad that I connected to for leaks. After about half an hour everthing was still dry (Dry Tissue around points). At this point I turned on the heating.Its been on for a couple of hours now and the Rad is scalding hot and still no leaks. I will monitor it over the next few weeks, to be sure, and bleed it again in a couple of days.

Even though everything seems alright, I am a little bit paranoid that its gonna leak, so I keep checking it every hour or so. If it does leak, I will drain it again and replace the PTFE with the hemp/compound.

All in, with travel for parts and work on the rad, it took me about three to four hours to replace. If I had all the parts to hand and had to do it again, I reckon I could do it in under 30 minutes, not including any travel. If I did not have to move the brackets, I am sure I could do it in 10.

Total quote €170 +vat

Actual cost to a novice...
€38 New Rad
€ 4 Rad Tool for removing "Radiator tails". Not used (Price rounded up)
€ 4 Hemp/compound. Not used. (Price rounded up)
€free/€10 Radiator tails, I got them free but I reckon up to €10.
PTFE tape I had lying around, but possibly another couple of euro.
Diesel for travel, negligible, but I will say €5.

Sense of achievement and learning, priceless.

Based on the above, I am even more shocked at the original quote and lack of interest in the job. Could have been a quick €100+ in the plumbers pocket if he only included the VAT in his original quote.

Once again, thanks to all that replied as it gave me that little bit of confidence in tackling this job.

whizbang

Nice to hear you had a good result.

But...

probably the main reason the professional didn't want to know, is why the radiator burst in the first place.

You need to look into this. seriously.

Batzoo

whizbang wrote: »

Nice to hear you had a good result.

But...

probably the main reason the professional didn't want to know, is why the radiator burst in the first place.

You need to look into this. seriously.

What do you recommend, I was thinking about getting some anti rust treatment for the small tank in the attic. Is this what you mean, or is it something more complicated like draining/flushing the system.

BoatMad

whizbang wrote: »

Nice to hear you had a good result.

But...

probably the main reason the professional didn't want to know, is why the radiator burst in the first place.

You need to look into this. seriously.

cheap steel panel radiators are prone to pin hole leaks especially near the sharp turn of the lower fold. internal debris builds up along the lower fold and also does damage , an inhibitor will help a lot . In recent years in my experience these panel rads are very cheap and flimsy compared to a 20-30 years ago or compared to high grade rads

The PTFE tape on the tail threads will be fine, done 10s of rads that way

a typical inspection will show a rust spot possibly forming , thats a sign , you'll get a pinhole

often they all start to go , but personally I find downstairs one give more trouble then upstairs ones

Also rads in wet areas like bathrooms and within the urine spray area of a toilet also corrode fast

I presume when you mean " burst" you dont mean a dramatic hole appeared !!

Dtp1979

BoatMad wrote: »

cheap steel panel radiators are prone to pin hole leaks especially near the sharp turn of the lower fold. internal debris builds up along the lower fold and also does damage , an inhibitor will help a lot . In recent years in my experience these panel rads are very cheap and flimsy compared to a 20-30 years ago or compared to high grade rads

The PTFE tape on the tail threads will be fine, done 10s of rads that way

a typical inspection will show a rust spot possibly forming , thats a sign , you'll get a pinhole

often they all start to go , but personally I find downstairs one give more trouble then upstairs ones

Also rads in wet areas like bathrooms and within the urine spray area of a toilet also corrode fast

I presume when you mean " burst" you dont mean a dramatic hole appeared !!

Adding an inhibitor to a corrosive or dirty system will do more harm than good. It should only be added to a properly powerflushed system

Batzoo

BoatMad wrote: »

I presume when you mean " burst" you dont mean a dramatic hole appeared !!

It was upstairs. It was a small hole and a slow drip leak. The rad is out of sight, in that there is usually something in front of it. The drip was not big enough to make a puddle or seep through to ceiling. But it had a six inch radius bubble/blister of enamel/paint around it. When prodded and picked the rust was clearly forming over a number of weeks/months. The water must have been sitting behind the blister for some time. A slow seep rather than a full on burst. Definitely appeared to come from the inside out rather than outside in. The little bit of water that remained in the rad was soot black and not brownish or rust coloured. Don't know if that is a good or bad thing.

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Adding an inhibitor to a corrosive or dirty system will do more harm than good. It should only be added to a properly powerflushed system

Not doubting you, but can you expand on the reasoning behind this as it seems counter intuitive?

Dtp1979

Batzoo wrote: »

It was upstairs. It was a small hole and a slow drip leak. The rad is out of sight, in that there is usually something in front of it. The drip was not big enough to make a puddle or seep through to ceiling. But it had a six inch radius bubble/blister of enamel/paint around it. When prodded and picked the rust was clearly forming over a number of weeks/months. The water must have been sitting behind the blister for some time. A slow seep rather than a full on burst. Definitely appeared to come from the inside out rather than outside in. The little bit of water that remained in the rad was soot black and not brownish or rust coloured. Don't know if that is a good or bad thing.




Not doubting you, but can you expand on the reasoning behind this as it seems counter intuitive?

Inhibitor is not designed to reverse the oxidation process and is reccomended by fernox not to be added to a dirty system. Every Tom Dick and harry always seem to think that throwing a bottle of inhibitor into the system will fix things. Inhibitor should be added to a clean system. You'll only really get a clean system either from day 1 install or after a powerflush

Batzoo

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Inhibitor is not designed to reverse the oxidation process and is reccomended by fernox not to be added to a dirty system. Every Tom Dick and harry always seem to think that throwing a bottle of inhibitor into the system will fix things. Inhibitor should be added to a clean system. You'll only really get a clean system either from day 1 install or after a powerflush

Ideally the system would have the inhibitor added on day one, this makes sense. After several years of use, sludge and whatnot builds up. The rads start to get cold spots or not function at all. At this stage I can understand a power flush and re-treatment.

But if all the rads get scalding hot, all over, no cold spots and the system still seems to be functioning as good as day one. Would adding an inhibitor not help with inhibiting and the slow down of future rust and add a few years to the life of the system.

I know an inhibitor wont reverse the sludge but surely adding it to a system will help slow the rust down. Or will it make it worse somehow? As I said it seems counter intuitive that inhibitor is a bad idea to add to an existing system. Maybe it wont do much good, but will it do any harm in you experience?

Dtp1979

Batzoo wrote: »

Ideally the system would have the inhibitor added on day one, this makes sense. After several years of use, sludge and whatnot builds up. The rads start to get cold spots or not function at all. At this stage I can understand a power flush and re-treatment.

But if all the rads get scalding hot, all over, no cold spots and the system still seems to be functioning as good as day one. Would adding an inhibitor not help with inhibiting and the slow down of future rust and add a few years to the life of the system.

I know an inhibitor wont reverse the sludge but surely adding it to a system will help slow the rust down. Or will it make it worse somehow? As I said it seems counter intuitive that inhibitor is a bad idea to add to an existing system. Maybe it wont do much good, but will it do any harm in you experience?

Yes it can form into a gloopy mixture that can be corrosive to pex piping. By all means add it to your system if you can guarantee it's totally clean. I've seen System that heat perfectly fine, add the powerflusher to it and you'd be amazed at the amount of magnatite I'd remove from it

Batzoo

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Yes it can form into a gloopy mixture that can be corrosive to pex piping. By all means add it to your system if you can guarantee it's totally clean. I've seen System that heat perfectly fine, add the powerflusher to it and you'd be amazed at the amount of magnatite I'd remove from it

There is no pex piping(had to look that up) in the mix. It is an old system +30 years. All rads except one have been replaced in the last few years. The one that was not replaced is never used and has been switched off for several years. It would probably pop if the valve was ever switched back on. The Hot water tank/immersion was also replaced. All piping is copper except for a couple of feet at the immersion/hot water tank and a couple of inches extension on one of the rads which I believe is CPVC.

I asked the plumber who replaced the water tank and other rads about draining the system and flushing it. He said there was no point as all the sludge is in the rads that were being replaced. The valves were turned off to the rads. Old rad drained then new fitted, then valves opened and refilled. He never drained or flushed the system. Anyhow, I tried to get this plumber first to do the burst rad but his mobile appeared to be switched off, not even going to answer machine. He was getting on a few years ago when he done the job, so maybe retired now and no longer in the game.

I doubt the system is clean as the rad that burst ( This rad was not supplied or fitted by the plumber above, but by a builder in a bathroom conversion) Had a lot of soot black water in it when removed.

So to treat or not to treat, that is my dilema.

Dtp1979

Batzoo wrote: »

There is no pex piping(had to look that up) in the mix. It is an old system +30 years. All rads except one have been replaced in the last few years. The one that was not replaced is never used and has been switched off for several years. It would probably pop if the valve was ever switched back on. The Hot water tank/immersion was also replaced. All piping is copper except for a couple of feet at the immersion/hot water tank and a couple of inches extension on one of the rads which I believe is CPVC.

I asked the plumber who replaced the water tank and other rads about draining the system and flushing it. He said there was no point as all the sludge is in the rads that were being replaced. The valves were turned off to the rads. Old rad drained then new fitted, then valves opened and refilled. He never drained or flushed the system. Anyhow, I tried to get this plumber first to do the burst rad but his mobile appeared to be switched off, not even going to answer machine. He was getting on a few years ago when he done the job, so maybe retired now and no longer in the game.

I doubt the system is clean as the rad that burst ( This rad was not supplied or fitted by the plumber above, but by a builder in a bathroom conversion) Had a lot of soot black water in it when removed.

So to treat or not to treat, that is my dilema.

Your old plumber was talking nonsense I'm afraid. Sludge DOES build up in pipework and the boiler im afraid. And fitting new rads into a dirty system is similar to fitting a new engine in a car and refilling it with dirty oil. Your only option is a powerflush.