We can all learn lessons in outreach from other Christians

homer911

Interesting article in the Irish Catholic that I thought was worth sharing and might provoke some debate

http://irishcatholic.ie/article/we-can-all-learn-lessons-outreach-other-christians

I don't go to Trinity Church, but I do know Paul and "Monty"

keano_afc

homer911 wrote: »

Interesting article in the Irish Catholic that I thought was worth sharing and might provoke some debate

http://irishcatholic.ie/article/we-can-all-learn-lessons-outreach-other-christians

I don't go to Trinity Church, but I do know Paul and "Monty"

I went to a youth club in FBC in the early 90s and Paul was one of the leaders. Good times.

katydid

homer911 wrote: »

Interesting article in the Irish Catholic that I thought was worth sharing and might provoke some debate

http://irishcatholic.ie/article/we-can-all-learn-lessons-outreach-other-christians

I don't go to Trinity Church, but I do know Paul and "Monty"

Christianity has never been a "one size fits all" religion, that's more than evident from the early days to today. It's good that there are options for people with different tastes and needs.

The traditional forms of worship we are so familiar with are a long way from the kind of worship that happened in the days of the early church. The early church was very unlike either of the main options we have today - they were very simple meetings in people's houses, sitting around a table, sharing a meal.
The traditional forms have evolved with our culture and our traditions, and are still what many people want and like. But others prefer the more dynamic, emotional version.

Whatever works for someone.

Benny_Cake

Very interesting article. I'd agree with katydid in that Christian worship has many different expressions. It's not all one way traffic, there are plenty of people from the evangelical end of the spectrum who have joined denominations with more traditional, liturgical services (Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Anglicanism or Lutheranism).

katydid

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Very interesting article. I'd agree with katydid in that Christian worship has many different expressions. It's not all one way traffic, there are plenty of people from the evangelical end of the spectrum who have joined denominations with more traditional, liturgical services (Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Anglicanism or Lutheranism).

And there is a growing tradition of "house churches", going back to the early Christian habit of meeting in houses and worshipping casually, without a liturgy.

As someone who was raised a Roman Catholic, I was attracted to the solemnity and the musical aspects of Anglican worship. It works for me, although services are longer that your standard mass. The article mentioned these services lasting about two hours, but I imagine that for the participants, they don't even notice the time.
Some of our CofI congregation from the African community come to church in our church at ten am on a Sunday morning, then go on to one of the African churches for the rest of the day!

hinault

The Catholics mentioned in the link, if they want biblical instruction they should refer to
texts such as http://haydock1859.tripod.com/

No need for them to attend Trinity CU, in my opinion.

homer911

hinault wrote: »

The Catholics mentioned in the link, if they want biblical instruction they should refer to
texts such as http://haydock1859.tripod.com/

No need for them to attend Trinity CU, in my opinion.

I think you miss the point hinault - its about meeting with a community of believers and encouraging one another - you don't get that through solitary Bible Study

keano_afc

hinault wrote: »

The Catholics mentioned in the link, if they want biblical instruction they should refer to
texts such as http://haydock1859.tripod.com/

No need for them to attend Trinity CU, in my opinion.

That's not what the article is about. Read it again.

uck51js9zml2yt

katydid wrote: »

And there is a growing tradition of "house churches", going back to the early Christian habit of meeting in houses and worshipping casually, without a liturgy.

As someone who was raised a Roman Catholic, I was attracted to the solemnity and the musical aspects of Anglican worship. It works for me, although services are longer that your standard mass. The article mentioned these services lasting about two hours, but I imagine that for the participants, they don't even notice the time.
Some of our CofI congregation from the African community come to church in our church at ten am on a Sunday morning, then go on to one of the African churches for the rest of the day!

House churches have been around a long time. We were one of the first in Dublin in the 60/70's as people began to break away with the main denominations as a result of the revival Ireland was experiencing at the time.
I've often been in meetings 3_or 4 hours as standard with gatherings up to 6 -8 hours when I've been in Africa.
I knew FBC when they met in Artane and St Marks when they were a small group in Beresford Place.

hinault

homer911 wrote: »

I think you miss the point hinault - its about meeting with a community of believers and encouraging one another - you don't get that through solitary Bible Study

?

For the Catholic, attending Mass should be all the encouragement that they require.

katydid

hinault wrote: »

?

For the Catholic, attending Mass should be all the encouragement that they require.

Well, obviously it's not.

homer911

hinault wrote: »

?

For the Catholic, attending Mass should be all the encouragement that they require.

Christian Unions are for all denominatons in 2nd or 3rd level - the point is that students in their teens/early twenties are NOT getting any encouragement in their local churches/parishes and very often these students are living away from home anyway.

CUs are non-denominational para-church organisations that encourage their members to fully particpate in their own local church

Sadly its that kind of reaction which explains why Catholic church attendance is in free fall

Peregrinus

homer911 wrote: »

Christian Unions are for all denominatons in 2nd or 3rd level - the point is that students in their teens/early twenties are NOT getting any encouragement in their local churches/parishes and very often these students are living away from home anyway.

CUs are non-denominational para-church organisations that encourage their members to fully participate in their own local church

Sadly its that kind of reaction which explains why Catholic church attendance is in free fall

It's not quite as simple as that. While Christian Unions are non-denominational, they tend to have a generally Protestant evangelical character, and sometimes an explicitly Protestant basis (in that they may affirm a doctrinal basis which goes beyond the historic creeds, and includes characteristically Protestant positions on, e.g. the authority of scripture, or substitutionary atonement.

The result is that while Christian Unions may be open to all Christians, they're sometimes not places where all Christians will feel entirely comfortable.

Which is not a criticism and, for all I know, may not be a comment which is all that relevant to Christian Unions in the Irish universities. When I was at College in the late middle ages, the Christian Union had the name of being one of the less inclusive Christian societies in college, but that was a long time ago and things could be very different now.

In any event, Homer911's initial point is well made. Regardless of whether you find the theological positions of this or that group appealing, you may have much to learn from their practice of fellowship and outreach.

hinault

homer911 wrote: »

Christian Unions are for all denominatons in 2nd or 3rd level - the point is that students in their teens/early twenties are NOT getting any encouragement in their local churches/parishes and very often these students are living away from home anyway.

CUs are non-denominational para-church organisations that encourage their members to fully particpate in their own local church

Sadly its that kind of reaction which explains why Catholic church attendance is in free fall

I suggest that the fall in Catholic church attendance has a lot of factors.

However, in the case of my own parish, it is encouraging to see younger people attending Mass regularly. There has been a gradual increase in the number of parents with young families attending. This is positive.
These people were presumably students not too long ago as well.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

I suggest that the fall in Catholic church attendance has a lot of factors.
.

Would love to hear those suggestions hinault!

hinault

Naya Mealy Medalist wrote: »

Would love to hear those suggestions hinault!

I doubt it, Comrade Naya Mealy Medalist.

protestants and atheists here such as you appear to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to evaluate Catholic church attendance.

katydid

hinault wrote: »

I doubt it, Comrade tatranska.

protestants and atheists here such as you appear to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to evaluate Catholic church attendance.

I don't think there's much need to evaluate it; it's a fact that Roman Catholic church attendance has fallen massively in recent years. As has general church attendance; it's only more noticeable in the Roman Catholic context because of the fact that attendance is supposed to be compulsory.

Falling church attendance at traditional services and the growth in alternative forms of worship is not something those of us who value the traditional path can afford to dismiss.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

I doubt it, Comrade tatranska.

protestants and atheists here such as you appear to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to evaluate Catholic church attendance.

Firstly why do you use a communist term in referring to me? What are you implying.
Secondly, I'm neither Protestant nor Atheist.
Thirdly, I'm genuinely interested in seeing you back up your statement.

You made a statement. Its not outside the bounds of possibility that you should be asked to expound on it.

homer911

hinault wrote: »

I suggest that the fall in Catholic church attendance has a lot of factors.

However, in the case of my own parish, it is encouraging to see younger people attending Mass regularly. There has been a gradual increase in the number of parents with young families attending. This is positive.
These people were presumably students not too long ago as well.

..and may well have had a faith-formative experience in University through a CU

Benny_Cake

I'd agree with Peregrinus that Christian Union is largely based on a form of evangelical Christianity which would probably seem quite alien to Catholic, Orthodox and "mainline" Protestants. That the Christian Union in Ireland is affiliated with the international Fellowship of Evangelical Students (not that there's anything wrong with that!) is a bit of a giveaway.

The question is: why aren't there Catholic or other organisations aside from the Christian Union present in colleges and universities in this country?

uck51js9zml2yt

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'd agree with Peregrinus that Christian Union is largely based on a form of evangelical Christianity which would probably seem quite alien to Catholic, Orthodox and "mainline" Protestants. That the Christian Union in Ireland is affiliated with the international Fellowship of Evangelical Students (not that there's anything wrong with that!) is a bit of a giveaway.

The question is: why aren't there Catholic or other organisations aside from the Christian Union present in colleges and universities in this country?

Things may have changed since my days in college but particularly in the North, CU's were dominated my mainline northern protestants.
In the south it was also the case in the bigger universities.
In the smaller colleges it was abroad mix with Catholics included.

hinault

Naya Mealy Medalist wrote: »

Firstly why do you use a communist term in referring to me?

Sure isn't it obvious.

The former East Germany used to refer to itself as being democratic.:rolleyes:

Naya Mealy Medalist wrote: »

Secondly, I'm neither Protestant nor Atheist. .

see above.

hinault

homer911 wrote: »

..and may well have had a faith-formative experience in University through a CU

Possibly 911.:)

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

Sure isn't it obvious.

The former East Germany used to refer to itself as being democratic.:rolleyes:




see above.

Not obvious. Please explain.

lazybones32

homer911 wrote: »

Interesting article in the Irish Catholic that I thought was worth sharing and might provoke some debate

Yeah, the RCC in Ireland does need to relearn how to be fishers of men. I've seen other Christians use formulas to great effect and not-so-great effect, so the Church should be discerning but should try something at least. Then again, it's the responsibility of the individual believer and not solely their church to witness. The seed will grow on its own account but it's our duty to sow it.

Some colleges do have 'Youth 2000' attached to the College and they are having success; the thing is to get someone to actually take on the responsibility of setting it up and commit to keep it going.
I've attended C.U. in College and aside from maybe 3 people, I wasn't made welcome. I was initially greeted with open arms but the mood changed when it became apparent that I wasn't going to leave the RCC. It took a 2 hour conversation with a Corkonian Baptist before she conceded that I loved Jesus I think I would have been better received had I had no faith or knowledge of God, rather than being RC.

steamengine

homer911 wrote: »

Interesting article in the Irish Catholic that I thought was worth sharing and might provoke some debate

http://irishcatholic.ie/article/we-can-all-learn-lessons-outreach-other-christians

I don't go to Trinity Church, but I do know Paul and "Monty"

I get the impression from reading the article above and that Trinity Church had some of its origins in the evangelistic activities that took place in the old YMCA metropolitan hall in Lr. Abbey Street, which is no longer in existence. No names, no pack drill but some names are familiar to both.

Back in my youth during the sixties, the YMCA used to host a very popular 8:30 pm church service on a Sunday evening. It was somewhere for young people to go, and indeed older people too. They came mostly from the various Protestant churches, but with a difference - the smaller more evangelistic groupings were well represented, such as Plymouth brethren, Baptist, Salvation Army and some others too.

The singing was led by a very competent choir and accompanied by a pianist on a grand piano and everyone sang their hearts out. The sermons were generally simple gospel style some more forceful than others, but generally not a cause for discomfort. Really it was just another church service but a lot more lively than your average church service.

uck51js9zml2yt

steamengine wrote: »

I get the impression from reading the article above and that Trinity Church had some of its origins in the evangelistic activities that took place in the old YMCA metropolitan hall in Lr. Abbey Street, which is no longer in existence. No names, no pack drill but some names are familiar to both.

Back in my youth during the sixties, the YMCA used to host a very popular 8:30 pm church service on a Sunday evening. It was somewhere for young people to go, and indeed older people too. They came mostly from the various Protestant churches, but with a difference - the smaller more evangelistic groupings were well represented, such as Plymouth brethren, Baptist, Salvation Army and some others too.

The singing was led by a very competent choir and accompanied by a pianist on a grand piano and everyone sang their hearts out. The sermons were generally simple gospel style some more forceful than others, but generally not a cause for discomfort. Really it was just another church service but a lot more lively than your average church service.

Trinity first met as fbc in mask road in artane and then opened a second meeting place in 12 c abbey St.
This was initially a brethren assembly. I knew one of the founding elders very well.

Fbc then expanded into the old labour exchange in Gardiner St and changed to trinity.

steamengine

lazybones32 wrote: »

Yeah, the RCC in Ireland does need to relearn how to be fishers of men. I've seen other Christians use formulas to great effect and not-so-great effect, so the Church should be discerning but should try something at least. Then again, it's the responsibility of the individual believer and not solely their church to witness. The seed will grow on its own account but it's our duty to sow it.

Some colleges do have 'Youth 2000' attached to the College and they are having success; the thing is to get someone to actually take on the responsibility of setting it up and commit to keep it going.
I've attended C.U. in College and aside from maybe 3 people, I wasn't made welcome. I was initially greeted with open arms but the mood changed when it became apparent that I wasn't going to leave the RCC. It took a 2 hour conversation with a Corkonian Baptist before she conceded that I loved Jesus I think I would have been better received had I had no faith or knowledge of God, rather than being RC.

Those Christians should stop and think of just how hurtful things like that can be - in fact the opposite of what Christianity is all about.

steamengine

Naya Mealy Medalist wrote: »

Trinity first met as fbc in mask road in artane and then opened a second meeting place in 12 c abbey St.
This was initially a brethren assembly. I knew one of the founding elders very well.

Fbc then expanded into the old labour exchange in Gardiner St and changed to trinity.

More or less as I thought, as the brethren were involved in the YMCA also. It's no mean achievement to start off small and to wind up with a vibrant congregation and impressive church premises like Trinity have done.

hinault

lazybones32 wrote: »

I've attended C.U. in College and aside from maybe 3 people, I wasn't made welcome. I was initially greeted with open arms but the mood changed when it became apparent that I wasn't going to leave the RCC. It took a 2 hour conversation with a Corkonian Baptist before she conceded that I loved Jesus I think I would have been better received had I had no faith or knowledge of God, rather than being RC.

Very interesting post.

In my opinion your post shows why Catholics should avoid contact with these type of groups.

Peregrinus

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'd agree with Peregrinus that Christian Union is largely based on a form of evangelical Christianity which would probably seem quite alien to Catholic, Orthodox and "mainline" Protestants. That the Christian Union in Ireland is affiliated with the international Fellowship of Evangelical Students (not that there's anything wrong with that!) is a bit of a giveaway.

The question is: why aren't there Catholic or other organisations aside from the Christian Union present in colleges and universities in this country?

There certainly used to be and SFAIK there still are. When I was at Trinity College in the late middle ages, in addition to the CU there was the Laurentian Society (Catholic), the Theological Society (open to all, but with a bit of an Anglican flavour since it's the one all the CofI ordinands joined), a very active conference of the SVdeP (open to all, but Catholic in origin and ethos) and a less formally constituted, but still active, group centred around the chaplaincy. I believe they're all still going. And I'd imagine the situation is similar in other colleges.

keano_afc

hinault wrote: »

Very interesting post.

In my opinion your post shows why Catholics should avoid contact with these type of groups.

Yep, lets generalise the entrire CU movement based on the experience of one person.

katydid

keano_afc wrote: »

Yep, lets generalise the entrire CU movement based on the experience of one person.

Hinault generalises everything according to his experience.

Delirium

hinault wrote: »

Sure isn't it obvious.

The former East Germany used to refer to itself as being democratic.:rolleyes:

see above.

MOD NOTE

Kindly drop the disrespectful/mocking use of 'comrade' when referring to other posters.

Thanks for your attention.

lazybones32

steamengine wrote: »

Those Christians should stop and think of just how hurtful things like that can be - in fact the opposite of what Christianity is all about.

Sadly, it is not an isolated event. Many other Christians 'look down' on RC's. I gave a newly-wed, hitchhiking German couple a lift one evening and they freely shared/witnessed. When I told them I was a Catholic the stunned silence and change in demeanour made me think I might as well have told them I was a satanist.

hinault wrote: »

Very interesting post.

In my opinion your post shows why Catholics should avoid contact with these type of groups.

To a degree, I agree. Christians should try to meet and be able to pray together to the same Lord (He did pray for us to be one) but who wants to spend time with those who look down on you? Even this thread is about the RCC learning from other Christians - I've yet to hear any other Christian wonder about what they can learn from the RCC.
I've been to Full Gospel meetings too and stopped going because at every meeting there was some anti-Catholic jibe, dig or insult. I've even seen a Pastor make fun of the Sign of the Cross...I wonder did Christ laugh when He saw the cross?
On the other hand, we've had many non-Catholic Christians speak at a Catholic prayer meeting I used attend and there was never an issue. I guess if you sense the Spirit speaking, drop the denomination tag and listen.

uck51js9zml2yt

@_lazybones - while the mocking of Catholics does happen in some circles and shouldn't, let's not overlook Hinaults mocking and display of superiority to those of us who are not part of his so called "One true Church" and are guilty of heresy.

It was interesting to note that during the Revival Ireland experienced during the late 60's-70's there was no divide.The resistance to what God was doing came from both the RC and mainline Protestant churches and caused people from both sides to move out on their own and establish independent groups.

My pastor often often told me of those times in Loighlinstown with the Holy Ghost Order that people came together on one ground. There was one occasion where he prophesied but only had half. Someone else carried on where he left off. When he finally turned around to see who it was speaking, it was a man with a dog collar on who was a Spiritan.

Indeed , I am were I am with my walk with God thanks to the support over 30 years ago of the local priest and a nun in the local Catholic charismatic Group. Joe went on to become PP in another parish.

hinault

lazybones32 wrote: »

Sadly, it is not an isolated event. Many other Christians 'look down' on RC's. I gave a newly-wed, hitchhiking German couple a lift one evening and they freely shared/witnessed. When I told them I was a Catholic the stunned silence and change in demeanour made me think I might as well have told them I was a satanist.


To a degree, I agree. Christians should try to meet and be able to pray together to the same Lord (He did pray for us to be one) but who wants to spend time with those who look down on you? Even this thread is about the RCC learning from other Christians - I've yet to hear any other Christian wonder about what they can learn from the RCC.
I've been to Full Gospel meetings too and stopped going because at every meeting there was some anti-Catholic jibe, dig or insult. I've even seen a Pastor make fun of the Sign of the Cross...I wonder did Christ laugh when He saw the cross?
On the other hand, we've had many non-Catholic Christians speak at a Catholic prayer meeting I used attend and there was never an issue. I guess if you sense the Spirit speaking, drop the denomination tag and listen.

I simply don't know.

I would assume that if people sense or hear a voice speaking to them, and they ascribe the source of what is being said to be the Holy Ghost, then it follows that the Holy Ghost would direct them toward the only Church founded by Jesus Christ namely The Catholic Church.

The difficulty here is that I've no doubt that people do hear things.
What they hear is difficult to discern.
From who they claim to hear from is even more difficult to discern.

lazybones32

Naya Mealy Medalist wrote: »

@_lazybones - while the mocking of Catholics does happen in some circles and shouldn't, let's not overlook Hinaults mocking and display of superiority to those of us who are not part of his so called "One true Church" and are guilty of heresy./QUOTE]

What has Hinault's opinions and views got to do with what I posted? Are you justifying something?
Scripture does indeed tell us to overlook faults, so it's your call whether you choose to do so or not.

katydid

hinault wrote: »

I simply don't know.

I would assume that if people sense or hear a voice speaking to them, and they ascribe the source of what is being said to be the Holy Ghost, then it follows that the Holy Ghost would direct them toward the only Church founded by Jesus Christ namely The Catholic Church.

The difficulty here is that I've no doubt that people do hear things.
What they hear is difficult to discern.
From who they claim to hear from is even more difficult to discern.

Sigh...Jesus founded the CHRISTIAN church.

You have been told this several times now.

The Holy Spirit directs people to follow Christ in whatever way is best for them.

lazybones32

hinault wrote: »

I simply don't know.

I would assume that if people sense or hear a voice speaking to them, and they ascribe the source of what is being said to be the Holy Ghost, then it follows that the Holy Ghost would direct them toward the only Church founded by Jesus Christ namely The Catholic Church.

The difficulty here is that I've no doubt that people do hear things.
What they hear is difficult to discern.
From who they claim to hear from is even more difficult to discern.

I don't mean people hearing voices or locutions. If a person is speaking and you can sense the Spirit, forget about what Christian denomination they are and listen. Discern, most definitely, afterwards but at least listen until you're given reason to stop listening.
The Holy Spirit is the Lord of Life - He animates every living being that is in existence...even atheists:). If He so wills, He can speak through them. That doesn't mean that everything they say is true and must be accepted but you know this already. I can't remember where in scripture, I think, God speaks through a donkey: if God chose to speak through that jackass, He can choose to speak through this jackass *points thumbs at self*

Christ does lead other Christians into the RCC; even at great personal cost to the 'converts'. Others, He seems happy for them to serve Him as they are and where they are. I don't know why He takes this route but He does. He knows the plan He's working to bring about the fulfillment of human history but I don't think we'll be privy to it in this life. I'm not saying that being in the Church is a thing of little consequence - we both know the immense treasure we've been given - but i can't offer any reason or explanation on why Christ doesn't seem to lead all others to His Bride.

Here's one for you to search for: Fr. Steven Scheier. It's unrelated but if you haven't read it yet you'll like it. There's a video on YT too; I haven't watched it but it's a longer interview.

katydid

lazybones32 wrote: »

To a degree, I agree. Christians should try to meet and be able to pray together to the same Lord (He did pray for us to be one) but who wants to spend time with those who look down on you? .

Most Christians do not look down on other Christians. There are some; the ones like Hinault who insist that their denomination is the only valid version of Christianity, and, to be fair, some fundamentalist Christians who hold the same attitude in regard to their denomination.

But the vast majority of Christians don't think like this.

katydid

lazybones32 wrote: »

Christ does lead other Christians into the RCC; even at great personal cost to the 'converts'. .

And he leads them out, as well.

lazybones32

katydid wrote: »

Most Christians do not look down on other Christians. There are some; the ones like Hinault who insist that their denomination is the only valid version of Christianity, and, to be fair, some fundamentalist Christians who hold the same attitude in regard to their denomination.

But the vast majority of Christians don't think like this.

I guess you might as well add me to the group you place Hinault in. I believe RCism is the best and most perfect version of Christianity too. I'm not going to pretend that some off-shoot branch of Christian worship can compare to the incredible and immense treasury available to Roman Catholics. I'm not going to shove it down anyone's throat but when the chips are down my allegiance is with Rome and the Bride.

Honestly, I think I've met more Christians who have an aversion to Roman Catholics than those who just accept you as a fellow-believer. Sad but that's the way it is. It used to bother me a lot when I was younger but not as much now. I guess I avoid them to a degree - esp. street preachers or those on Mission from abroad.

hinault

lazybones32 wrote: »

I don't mean people hearing voices or locutions. If a person is speaking and you can sense the Spirit, forget about what Christian denomination they are and listen. Discern, most definitely, afterwards but at least listen until you're given reason to stop listening.
The Holy Spirit is the Lord of Life - He animates every living being that is in existence...even atheists:). If He so wills, He can speak through them. That doesn't mean that everything they say is true and must be accepted but you know this already. I can't remember where in scripture, I think, God speaks through a donkey: if God chose to speak through that jackass, He can choose to speak through this jackass *points thumbs at self*

Christ does lead other Christians into the RCC; even at great personal cost to the 'converts'. Others, He seems happy for them to serve Him as they are and where they are. I don't know why He takes this route but He does. He knows the plan He's working to bring about the fulfillment of human history but I don't think we'll be privy to it in this life. I'm not saying that being in the Church is a thing of little consequence - we both know the immense treasure we've been given - but i can't offer any reason or explanation on why Christ doesn't seem to lead all others to His Bride.

Here's one for you to search for: Fr. Steven Scheier. It's unrelated but if you haven't read it yet you'll like it. There's a video on YT too; I haven't watched it but it's a longer interview.

Thanks for that.

I agree that we can't know His plan for a whole series of reasons.

I do take the point that the Holy Ghost can choose anyone through whom to speak.
The Bible is full of accounts where Jews for example converted to Christianity. They "heard" the message and responded in the correct way to that message.

It is still my opinion though that if it is the Holy Ghost who is urging people, then He would urge them toward the Church that Jesus Christ Himself willed.

Of course the person receiving the instruction from the Holy Ghost may not have the capacity to understand what the Holy Ghost is urging them to do.
Or the person may retain ideas or beliefs which blocks their ability to move them toward the Church that Jesus Christ Himself willed.

That is why I would question those claims by people who say that they were moved by the spirit.

What spirit moved them?
And if it is the Holy Ghost that urged them, why did He urge them to join something not willed by Jesus Christ himself?
Those questions are for those claiming to have been moved by the Spirit.


We know that God cannot lie.

homer911

In the context of learning lessons in Outreach from other Christians, its interesting to see how the Catholic Church in Ireland has adopted Alpha, probably to a greater extent than non-Catholic churches, despite this being a creation of the Anglican church. Alpha Youth in particular is gaining lots of traction with dioceses/parishes engaging and training youth pastors to run these courses.

Lots of references to Alpha on IrishCatholic for those who want to read more

Benny_Cake

Naya Mealy Medalist wrote: »

@_lazybones - while the mocking of Catholics does happen in some circles and shouldn't, let's not overlook Hinaults mocking and display of superiority to those of us who are not part of his so called "One true Church" and are guilty of heresy.

It was interesting to note that during the Revival Ireland experienced during the late 60's-70's there was no divide.The resistance to what God was doing came from both the RC and mainline Protestant churches and caused people from both sides to move out on their own and establish independent groups.

My pastor often often told me of those times in Loighlinstown with the Holy Ghost Order that people came together on one ground. There was one occasion where he prophesied but only had half. Someone else carried on where he left off. When he finally turned around to see who it was speaking, it was a man with a dog collar on who was a Spiritan.

Indeed , I am were I am with my walk with God thanks to the support over 30 years ago of the local priest and a nun in the local Catholic charismatic Group. Joe went on to become PP in another parish.

I was speaking to someone recently who was involved in organising the charismatic meetings back then in the old Quaker meeting house in Temple Bar (where the Irish Film Institute is now). He was telling me that they had huge turnouts and the majority of those there were Catholic. It's not something I've a huge understanding of but it seems a lot of these people were actually "doing" ecumenism while others were talking about it.

uck51js9zml2yt

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I was speaking to someone recently who was involved in organising the charismatic meetings back then in the old Quaker meeting house in Temple Bar (where the Irish Film Institute is now). He was telling me that they had huge turnouts and the majority of those there were Catholic. It's not something I've a huge understanding of but it seems a lot of these people were actually "doing" ecumenism while others were talking about it.

Eustace St was were it was happening after the mansion house.
They later moved to loughlinstown. The YMCA also also saw lot going on.
What put an end to it was interference from both the RCC and the COI.they though they could control what God was doing. Those who weren't happy with the interference just moved on and established their own groups.

The good thing is that we're not too far away from seeing such a move of God again. Thankfully there are people out there who were part of the first move and will be able to avoid the mistakes of the past.

Jellybaby1

I was just a nipper when I went to Eustace Street, and a young teenager when I went to YMCA. I didn't go for very long. I never heard anything said about interference by RCC or CoI but then no one explained much to children in those days. tatranska, can you relate what happened, what the interference was and by whom?

keano_afc

hinault wrote: »

I simply don't know.

I would assume that if people sense or hear a voice speaking to them, and they ascribe the source of what is being said to be the Holy Ghost, then it follows that the Holy Ghost would direct them toward the only Church founded by Jesus Christ namely The Catholic Church.

The difficulty here is that I've no doubt that people do hear things.
What they hear is difficult to discern.
From who they claim to hear from is even more difficult to discern.

uck51js9zml2yt

@jellybean - theres little to be gained from going into history. Unlike yourself, I wasn't there but know a lot of people who were. The good news is that we are on the verge of bigger. Who knows we might even go from making use of Catholic premises to Catholic Churches. I'm so glad Gods not bigoted and knows those who are his.
I recommend reading " The Year of Grace". Its about the 1879 Revival in Ireland. It was mainly in the North and the border counties but hit pockets of the south.


@keano- hinaults opinion that the RCC was the church Jesus initiated comes from the 2nd Book of Confusions. That its not in the Bible must mean its in the extra books not deemed to be part of Scripture.

hinault

Naya Mealy Medalist wrote: »

hinaults opinion that the RCC was the church Jesus initiated comes from the 2nd Book of Confusions. That its not in the Bible must mean its in the extra books not deemed to be part of Scripture.

Luther's your man, Naya Mealy Medalist, not mine.

Luther's editing of Scripture to create his version of the "bible" is your snakeoil of choice.