Malta named Europes most gay friendly country!

wakka12

http://www.newnownext.com/the-country-named-most-gay-friendly-in-europe-doesnt-have-gay-marriage/10/2015/

Do people agree with this method of ranking? I feel Irelands deserves a lot more than a measly 18th place. My boyfriend and I hold hands all around Dublin and kiss in clubs/bars all the time and not as much as a mean word has been uttered in our direction on any occasion. Which I was shocked and delighted by at first.

Ten of Swords

At first glance Ireland's result of 48% (18th place) may seem disappointing given all that we have achieved recently but there's a pretty significant jump from the score in 2014 of 34% (22nd place) and the score in 2013 of 36% (17th place).

ILGA held their annual conference in Dublin in 2012, the theme was "Advancing LGBTI equality in challenging economic times"



Honestly the most surprising result on the chart this year is that there is a that scored lower than Russia!

newacc2015

A Balkan country at number 5! Really? Their culturally mindset is fairly Russian. I had a friend from the Balkan who said being gay is barely tolerated and not accepted. So Croatia being no 5 is a bit unusual.

Their score for Ireland is wrong. They say you have no protection for buying goods and services. Yes its not in the Law. But the equality authority will press charges against a firm for refusing to serve you for being gay

We score poorly on Asylum rights. I dont get that either since a Romanian friend told me tons of Romanians came here in the early 2000s to get Asylum. They told immigration they were gay and were given Asylum here

This looks like a survey from an another half ass "NGO". I dont know why. But most LGBT NGOs are pretty horrific. Such as the AIDS Healthcare Foundation, whose Chairman refuses to acknowledge PrEP as important for a reduction in HIV rates.

Ten of Swords

newacc2015 wrote: »

A Balkan country at number 5! Really? Their culturally mindset is fairly Russian.

I'm afraid that's not true, I had this conversation with someone else on this forum too. Croatia is a staunchly catholic country and is ideologically quite different from Russia, you are possibly thinking of Serbia which is populated by people of slavic descent, uses the cryllic alphabet and follows the orthodox church. Serbia also has a poor reputation for LGBT rights.

Annasopra

newacc2015 wrote: »

A Balkan country at number 5! Really? Their culturally mindset is fairly Russian. I had a friend from the Balkan who said being gay is barely tolerated and not accepted. So Croatia being no 5 is a bit unusual.

Their score for Ireland is wrong. They say you have no protection for buying goods and services. Yes its not in the Law. But the equality authority will press charges against a firm for refusing to serve you for being gay

We score poorly on Asylum rights. I dont get that either since a Romanian friend told me tons of Romanians came here in the early 2000s to get Asylum. They told immigration they were gay and were given Asylum here

This looks like a survey from an another half ass "NGO". I dont know why. But most LGBT NGOs are pretty horrific. Such as the AIDS Healthcare Foundation, whose Chairman refuses to acknowledge PrEP as important for a reduction in HIV rates.

ILGA Europe isnt a half ass NGO. Its a significant large well respected European network with strong lobbying presence in the European Parliament, European comission and the Council of Europe with members across Europe.

An anecdote about lots of Romanian people claiming asylum because they were gay is hardly evidence based proof!!

Regarding goods and services - Legislation does explicitly ban discrimination of access to goods and services for LGB people but not explicitly for trans people although trans people have taken cases recently here in Ireland and won.

Annasopra

wakka12 wrote: »

http://www.newnownext.com/the-country-named-most-gay-friendly-in-europe-doesnt-have-gay-marriage/10/2015/

Do people agree with this method of ranking? I feel Irelands deserves a lot more than a measly 18th place. My boyfriend and I hold hands all around Dublin and kiss in clubs/bars all the time and not as much as a mean word has been uttered in our direction on any occasion. Which I was shocked and delighted by at first.

It's a legal ranking and not really as headlines would suggest a cultural ranking.

It was published in May 2015

The UK actually scored number 1 but the Maltese government are claiming because they changed some laws they are number 1

Ireland scored 63%
UK scored 86%

Irelands place for 2016 will jump much higher - probably to around 75/80% due to introduction of gender recognition and marriage equality -

See the ranking here

http://www.ilga-europe.org/sites/default/files/Attachments/side_b-rainbow_eurpe_index_may_2015_no_crops.pdf

Annasopra

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Honestly the most surprising result on the chart this year is that there is a that scored lower than Russia!

When you realise that is Azerbaijan - not really

I've met some Azerbaijiani LGBT activists who have claimed asylum because they faced death threats. I was in a gay bar in Baku as well - it was completely hidden away behind numerous back streets.

The Azerbaijani human rights record is extremely poor.

Ten of Swords

I remember reading about Isa Shakhmarli's suicide about a year and a half ago, it was so sad. He was only 20 and he founded a LGBT rights group in Azerbaijan, facing such hatred and hostility. In the end he just gave up, his own family had sent him to psychologists and they declared him mentally ill.

Makes me wonder about this years scoring, did Russia get better or Azerbaijan get worse?

Annasopra

Ten of Swords wrote: »

I remember reading about Isa Shakhmarli's suicide about a year and a half ago, it was so sad. He was only 20 and he founded a LGBT rights group in Azerbaijan, facing such hatred and hostility. In the end he just gave up, his own family had sent him to psychologists and they declared him mentally ill.

Makes me wonder about this years scoring, did Russia get better or Azerbaijan get worse?

Both

2014 Azerbaijan 7 Russia 6
2015 Azerbaijan 5 Russia 8

Ten of Swords

wakka12 wrote: »

My boyfriend and I hold hands all around Dublin and kiss in clubs/bars all the time and not as much as a mean word has been uttered in our direction on any occasion.

I think it's great that you are free to be yourselves without being bothered by people's bigoted nonsense, it wasn't like that in Dublin as recently as a few years ago. I'd say many people here who have been out with a partner have been on the receiving end of some kind of homophobia, I have.

It can be very traumatic if it happens, there have been posts in this forum about it too, two spring to mind.

Ewan whose army

Tito man!

I hope you never have to experience anything like that but please be aware that there are plenty of idiots around and don't get upset if something does ever happen.

Metroboulot

A lot legally had changed here in a very short time. The ranking will improve though this year.

We've a lot of legislation pending that came out of the referendum really.

I'm not sure that they're interpreting Ireland's equal status laws correctly though. However they don't apply to religious employers (who are entire state funded in many cases)

I'd be a little iffy about some of these surveys generally.

Annasopra

Metroboulot wrote: »

A lot legally had changed here in a very short time. The ranking will improve though this year.

We've a lot of legislation pending that came out of the referendum really.

I'm not sure that they're interpreting Ireland's equal status laws correctly though. However they don't apply to religious employers (who are entire state funded in many cases)

I'd be a little iffy about some of these surveys generally.

Just so we are clear here


The rating for Ireland in the area of equality and non discrimination was based on:

Employment (sexual orientation)
Goods & services (sexual orientation)
Other spheres of life (sexual orientation)
Equality body mandate (sexual orientation)

Ireland scored yes to these

Constitution (sexual orientation)
Equality action plan (sexual orientation)
Constitution (gender identity)
Employment (gender identity)
Goods & services (gender identity)
Other spheres of life (gender identity)
Equality body mandate (gender identity)
Equality action plan (gender identity)
Law (gender expression)
Law and public policy (intersex)

Ireland scored no to these

I don't understand how people are claiming our equality legislation is misunderstood/misinterpreted?

Metroboulot

I suppose Ireland is still surprisingly backwards really on some issues like still having all sorts of weird opt outs of employment law for schools etc etc even if that's being a little modified now.

The same sex marriage legislation may now cross a general election which is really unbelievable stuff!

I'll be holding FG accountable for that one and voting elsewhere if they pull the plug this week without that having gone through the houses.

Annasopra

Metroboulot wrote: »

I suppose Ireland is still surprisingly backwards really on some issues like still having all sorts of weird opt outs of employment law for schools etc etc even if that's being a little modified now.

The same sex marriage legislation may now cross a general election which is really unbelievable stuff!

I'll be holding FG accountable for that one and voting elsewhere if they pull the plug this week without that having gone through the houses.

It's not unbelievable at all. Legislation takes time.

But anyway this is false - the Marriage Bill has already gone through all stages in the Dáil. It is now being sent to the Seanad. When the Dail is dissolved the Seanad isn't. The Seanad stays in place until a Seanad election within 90 days of the Dail being dissolved. Once it is sent (and the process of sending bill X from one house to another is purely procedural) then the bill lives on in the Seanad even if the Dáil is dissolved, until the Seanad's term ends up to 90 days after the Dáil dissolution. 90 days would be more than enough time for the Seanad to though all stages and send it to the President. It could easily pass the bill through the Seanad in 10 working days.

Of course, technically, the Seanad could amend it, and then it would have to go back to the Dáil. But thats doubtful with all party support for the bill. So the fact that the Bill passed all its Dáil stages earlier this week probably means that a Dáil dissolution would make no difference now. The bill wouldn't fall. So whether the Dáil is dissolved next week, or even in April, will probably make no difference to the marriage bill.

Metroboulot

The unbelievable bit was the nearly two years of foot dragging (largely by FG) before the referendum which has ensured that it's ended up this late.

newacc2015

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Employment (gender identity)
Goods & services (gender identity)

The Employment Equality Acts 1998 to 2011 includes provision for gender identity. This act also applies for access to goods and services. Eg if you cant be refused a pint in a bar because you are a traveller or gay.

Saying Ireland doesnt have protection employment protection/access to good and services for transgender people is incorrect. This organisation appeared to ignore/didnt understand this law

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_in_the_workplace.html

Annasopra

newacc2015 wrote: »

The Employment Equality Acts 1998 to 2011 includes provision for gender identity. This act also applies for access to goods and services. Eg if you cant be refused a pint in a bar because you are a traveller or gay.

Saying Ireland doesnt have protection employment protection/access to good and services for transgender people is incorrect. This organisation appeared to ignore/didnt understand this law

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_in_the_workplace.html

Actually no that's the full case. ILGA Europe did understand the law very well! CIB don't fully understand the law in my view!
As I said Ireland does not have EXPLICIT protection for trans people against discrimination in the areas of employment and access to goods and services.

If you can find explict protection for trans people in the Employment Equality Act or the Equal Status Act please point them out to me

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/RevisedActs/WithAnnotations/HTML/EN_ACT_1998_0021.htm

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/RevisedActs/WithAnnotations/HTML/EN_ACT_2000_0008.HTM

Of course we have seen cases (Hannon in employment and O'Byrne in goods and services) which used the gender ground of the Acts - but the reality is that trans people do not have explicit protection against discrimination in the EEA and EA. The Equality Tribunal could potentially reverse those cases in the future.

ILGA didnt misunderstand or misinterpret our laws at all.

Metroboulot

It doesn't have specific reference to xenophobia either but that's covered by race and has been set in precedent.

Irish law differs enormously from most of Europe as we've a concept of implying and reading in rights by court interpretations of legislation - Common Law.

Most of Europe uses codified civil law.

Simply not being aware of the case law and reading legislation at face value isn't going to do you much good here.

Also the UK does not have gay marriage universally or a single legal system.

Pretending NI isn't part of the U.K. again when its an embarrassingly conservative backwater are they? Same sex marriage only exists in England, Wales and Scotland.

newacc2015

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Actually no that's the full case. ILGA Europe did understand the law very well! CIB don't fully understand the law in my view!
As I said Ireland does not have EXPLICIT protection for trans people against discrimination in the areas of employment and access to goods and services.

If you can find explict protection for trans people in the Employment Equality Act or the Equal Status Act please point them out to me

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/RevisedActs/WithAnnotations/HTML/EN_ACT_1998_0021.htm

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/RevisedActs/WithAnnotations/HTML/EN_ACT_2000_0008.HTM

Of course we have seen cases (Hannon in employment and O'Byrne in goods and services) which used the gender ground of the Acts - but the reality is that trans people do not have explicit protection against discrimination in the EEA and EA. The Equality Tribunal could potentially reverse those cases in the future.

ILGA didnt misunderstand or misinterpret our laws at all.

It explains discriminate as treating one person less favourably than another. It protects everyone from discrimination with that definition included in the law. It doesnt explicitly imply it. But the protection is there implicitly. If a transperson brought a case to the equality tribunal that was clearly discrimination. The tribunal would hear the case, even though the law doesn't explicitly say it. Common law isnt a case of black or white. Its how the law is interrupted.

Even the Citizens information(which I imagine used a legal team to prepare their article) mention transsexuals have protection under the law.

Daith

Exactly. If you're looking at what Irish law specifically says than I can see this ranking but that's not the full picture at all.

Annasopra

Metroboulot wrote: »

It doesn't have specific reference to xenophobia either but that's covered by race and has been set in precedent.

Irish law differs enormously from most of Europe as we've a concept of implying and reading in rights by court interpretations of legislation - Common Law.

Most of Europe uses codified civil law.

Simply not being aware of the case law and reading legislation at face value isn't going to do you much good here.

Also the UK does not have gay marriage universally or a single legal system.

Pretending NI isn't part of the U.K. again when its an embarrassingly conservative backwater are they? Same sex marriage only exists in England, Wales and Scotland.

ILGA Europe is well aware of the case law. If you even read it's report alongside the map it mentions the O'Byrne case.

Numerous people and bodies have called on the government to explicitly amend the Equality Legislation to have "gender identity" as a 10th ground

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/EDJ2013102400005?opendocument

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/educationandsocialprotection/Report-on-Gender-Recognition-Bill.pdf

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/committees/hr/Submissions/transgender_report2011.pdf

FLAC called for it

Ms Noeline Blackwell: If I may make one very brief point, what is not in the scheme is the opportunity that will arise now - which legislators will know might not arise for years again - to include discrimination on the grounds of transgender or intersex gender identity in the equality legislation. In our view this could be usefully added.

Ms Yvonne Woods: The Free Legal Advice Centres feel a provision to amend the equality Acts would be good because of the dividends Mr. Merriman mentioned and the fact it would remove the ambiguity in the area. It would mean a transgender person can rely on the law and would provide them with protection from discrimination.

FLAC also recommend that the Equality Acts be amended to include Gender Identity among the discriminatory grounds listed at Section 6 of the Employment Equality Act, 1998 as amended. FLAC write that while this was proposed in the current programme for Government it was rejected by the GRAG on the grounds that the Equality Tribunal previously upheld a complaint by a transgender woman in 2011 under the Gender Ground Hannon v First Direct Logistics Ltd (DEC E 2011 066).
However, FLAC anticipate that there may be problems in any reliance on the Gender Ground‘, as it may not be suitable where a complainant is in the early stages of transition and has not been recognised in their preferred gender. FLAC also argue that including gender identity among the discriminatory grounds would raise awareness and deter verbal and physical abuse against transgender people.

Dr Fergus Ryan called for it

This Bill provides a useful opportunity to make discrimination on the basis of gender identity explicitly unlawful in the context of employment and the provision of goods and services and to ensure that all transgender people - not just those who are transitioning or have transitioned - are expressly protected from discrimination. The legislation also offers a good opportunity to amend the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act 1989 to include gender identity and gender as grounds upon which incitement to hatred is prohibited. Lawyers, doctors and academics do not have a monopoly of wisdom in this area. It is important that Members of the Oireachtas should speak with and listen intently to those people with direct and daily experience of these Recommendation

The Oireachtas committee on education and social protection called for it

Equality Acts (Para 5.7) Consideration should be given to amending Equality legislation to add gender identity to the existing nine grounds under which discrimination is illegal.

The Law Society called for it

2: The principle of non-discrimination should permeate the entire Bill. Provision should be made in the Bill for a non-discrimination clause which would provide for amendment to existing Equality Acts and for the introduction of equality proofing for all Bills which may have an impact on the lives of transgendered persons

None of these reccomendations were made for no reason


The other thing here is

The Equality Tribunal isn't actually a court of law so actually it's not subject to common law!


No I think ILGA Europe were entirely correct here - sure there is implicit protection but there isn't explicit