Marathon Food/ Fluid plans

The Fool

I'm interested in peoples opinion of this Marathon food guide on Irish Dietician institute website.
https://www.indi.ie/fact-sheets/fact-sheets-on-sports-nutrition/547-food-and-fluid-for-your-marathon.html

I would have thought that a high carb diet was essential for Marathon training but seems to be a bit controversial here. From what I've read an average runner (non elite) burns around 90 -10 Carbs to fat and even elites would be 70-30.

notes
I'm not an expert in food or even marathons
Everyones different, talking in general
Strictly talking marathon training not for general populace.
Take it that Wholegrain carbs is best followed by brown and white is evil

Myles Splitz

The Fool wrote: »

I'm interested in peoples opinion of this Marathon food guide on Irish Dietician institute website.
https://www.indi.ie/fact-sheets/fact-sheets-on-sports-nutrition/547-food-and-fluid-for-your-marathon.html

For me the article seems a little bit dated either in the understanding of marathon training or nutritional demands for the event specific nutrition. Fat Utilization has been something which has become increasingly more prevelant in marathon training at all levels.

Here is an excerpt from DCM winner Eluid Too's coach from last year

1) We noticed in May that Eliud's ratio of fat/glycogen utilization was not efficient enough for marathoning, primarily as his background was steeplechase. So to train his body for utilizing fat more efficiently he needed to push his body for increasingly longer efforts at a low intensity, getting to 2+ hr runs. Zone A1 has the highest RER which means it is the optimal zone for enhancing fat oxidation. The rate of glycogen depletion is a key determinant of performance in the marathon and the best way to reduce this rate is by enhancing fat oxidation. This is a component we are very keen to develop in Eliud, but it can take over a year to observe any noticeable adaptation. His A2 zone would be what you are referring to as Canova Long Runs. Neil and I had hoped to have a fair bit of running in this zone, but as things progressed I found Eliud wasn't ready for this component in his program so I reduced the volume of A2. The priority was improving his fat oxidation. His A2 zone is something we will be integrating more and more as he matures. But he's still not ready for it yet.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92929814&postcount=7

While this might not seem applicable given that it is an elite's methodology and training vary's this is actually more prevalent in sub elite and amateur levels for the following reasons:

1) Many 1st time (or even relatively new to the sport as in 2-3 years) runners don't have the aerobic foundation built up over years that many of these elites do
2) Average person can only store approximately 2 hours worth of glycogen so when you come to 3-6 hour marathoners you are having to rely on alternative fuel sources for 33-66% of the overall race. As such carb's are not the only important fuel source.

Alot of recent research has been coming out regarding fat types as a fuel source which seem to back up training principles of marathon coaches such as Renato Canova and others.

The fact that fat is not mentioned at all in that guideline seems quite odd given the development of marathon training in recent years.

I do however concede that in general the LCHF movement that has developed over the last 10-15 years does seem to be more geared towards sedentary lifestyles but has be applied to all aspects of sport also. Personally I don't think this is the best approach either and that there is a happy medium between the two.

The Fool wrote: »

I would have thought that a high carb diet was essential for Marathon training but seems to be a bit controversial here. From what I've read an average runner (non elite) burns around 90 -10 Carbs to fat and even elites would be 70-30.

As mentioned before this should actually be reversed hence why so many non elites hit "the wall". This is also only race day and as such the race day fuel consumption differs from training cycle.

The Fool wrote: »

notes
I'm not an expert in food or even marathons
Everyones different, talking in general
Strictly talking marathon training not for general populace.
Take it that Wholegrain carbs is best followed by brown and white is evil

In terms of advice opt for a more moderate macro breakdown

40/30/30 - Carbs-Fats-Protein is a perfectly suitable diet for a marathon runner

The main thing is to eat clean as much as possible, aim for high nutrient foods.
-Wholegrain for slow release energy and stabilizing sugar crashes (ideal for breakfasts and pre workouts),
-Whites can be fine for quick absorption post workout.
-Watch the hydration
- Low fat - Sugar replacement - Blood sugar spikes and cravings later aka. Full Fat products are just as good
- Fats shouldn't be demonized, neither should carbs, moderation is key

menoscemo

The Fool wrote: »

I'm interested in peoples opinion of this Marathon food guide on Irish Dietician institute website.
https://www.indi.ie/fact-sheets/fact-sheets-on-sports-nutrition/547-food-and-fluid-for-your-marathon.html

I would have thought that a high carb diet was essential for Marathon training but seems to be a bit controversial here. From what I've read an average runner (non elite) burns around 90 -10 Carbs to fat and even elites would be 70-30.

notes
I'm not an expert in food or even marathons
Everyones different, talking in general
Strictly talking marathon training not for general populace.
Take it that Wholegrain carbs is best followed by brown and white is evil

Is that advice for diabetics or for everyone?

Personally I find it ridiculously complicated. Eat when you're hungry and drink when you're thirsty would be a more simplistic and easy to follow approach.

The part about carbo loading for 2 weeks before the marathon is completely ridiculous advice IMO. The day before is loads of time to top up your glycogen.

The Fool

menoscemo wrote: »

Is that advice for diabetics or for everyone?

Personally I find it ridiculously complicated. Eat when you're hungry and drink when you're thirsty would be a more simplistic and easy to follow approach.

The part about carbo loading for 2 weeks before the marathon is completely ridiculous advice IMO. The day before is loads of time to top up your glycogen.

I don't know about hunger but drink when you thirsty wouldn't be good advice imo.
Thirst is a very poor indicator of your hydration.

Think is gereral advice, nothing to do with diabetics

The Fool

Myles Splitz wrote: »

For me the article seems a little bit dated either in the understanding of marathon training or nutritional demands for the event specific nutrition. Fat Utilization has been something which has become increasingly more prevelant in marathon training at all levels.

Here is an excerpt from DCM winner Eluid Too's coach from last year



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92929814&postcount=7

While this might not seem applicable given that it is an elite's methodology and training vary's this is actually more prevalent in sub elite and amateur levels for the following reasons:

1) Many 1st time (or even relatively new to the sport as in 2-3 years) runners don't have the aerobic foundation built up over years that many of these elites do
2) Average person can only store approximately 2 hours worth of glycogen so when you come to 3-6 hour marathoners you are having to rely on alternative fuel sources for 33-66% of the overall race. As such carb's are not the only important fuel source.

Alot of recent research has been coming out regarding fat types as a fuel source which seem to back up training principles of marathon coaches such as Renato Canova and others.

The fact that fat is not mentioned at all in that guideline seems quite odd given the development of marathon training in recent years.

I do however concede that in general the LCHF movement that has developed over the last 10-15 years does seem to be more geared towards sedentary lifestyles but has be applied to all aspects of sport also. Personally I don't think this is the best approach either and that there is a happy medium between the two.



As mentioned before this should actually be reversed hence why so many non elites hit "the wall". This is also only race day and as such the race day fuel consumption differs from training cycle.



In terms of advice opt for a more moderate macro breakdown

40/30/30 - Carbs-Fats-Protein is a perfectly suitable diet for a marathon runner

The main thing is to eat clean as much as possible, aim for high nutrient foods.
-Wholegrain for slow release energy and stabilizing sugar crashes (ideal for breakfasts and pre workouts),
-Whites can be fine for quick absorption post workout.
-Watch the hydration
- Low fat - Sugar replacement - Blood sugar spikes and cravings later aka. Full Fat products are just as good
- Fats shouldn't be demonized, neither should carbs, moderation is key

Very interesting stuff, as you say the elites are probably a bit of a red herring for most of us because if you have 2 hour carb storage and your running 2hours + few minutes it's a different ballpark.

menoscemo

The Fool wrote: »

I don't know about hunger but drink when you thirsty wouldn't be good advice imo.
Thirst is a very poor indicator of your hydration.

Really, why's that? It works for me and most other people I know.

It's much more dangerous to drink too much than too little.

MrMacPhisto

menoscemo wrote: »

Is that advice for diabetics or for everyone?

Personally I find it ridiculously complicated. Eat when you're hungry and drink when you're thirsty would be a more simplistic and easy to follow approach.

The part about carbo loading for 2 weeks before the marathon is completely ridiculous advice IMO. The day before is loads of time to top up your glycogen.

I know your comment is tongue in cheek and I'm not a sensitive soul but.....As a type 1 diabetic runner, the dietary needs is no different than that of non-diabetic. The only caveat is that one has to be a wee bit more careful of low glycogen encounters. A high fat/low carb diet would not really be appropriate for marathon running.

IMO, like most things in life, moderation is the key, a good balance of carb/protein/fat.

Lot of good info on this site if you fancy a read, [url]www.runsweet.com:)[/url]

I concur, eat when you are hungry and drink when you are thirsty

MojoMaker

Works for me too. Only time it gets called into question is in really hot race conditions, which simply are not present in Ireland at any time of the year.

The Fool

MojoMaker wrote: »

Works for me too. Only time it gets called into question is in really hot race conditions, which simply are not present in Ireland at any time of the year.

I suppose my way of thinking is if you're thirsty you'reare already to some degree dehydrated, but whatever works. Probably depends on your shape and size and how much you sweat. It was certainly very warm at last years DCM.

The Fool

Just on the carb issue, I suppose it depends on your training plan but mine is 1 hour training most days +LSR at weekend. If you take it that you have 2 hours storage of carbs in your system, you're using up 50% of your carb storage.

Add that to day to day usage of walking, standing etc you're not far off having to replace 70-90% of your carb storage everyday.

Hence the high carb diet

Myles Splitz

The Fool wrote: »

Just on the carb issue, I suppose it depends on your training plan but mine is 1 hour training most days +LSR at weekend. If you take it that you have 2 hours storage of carbs in your system, you're using up 50% of your carb storage.

Add that to day to day usage of walking, standing etc you're not far off having to replace 70-90% of your carb storage everyday.

Hence the high carb diet

The problem with that is that you are not taking into account intensity levels. An hour easy will not burn anywhere near that amount of carbs.

The two hour storage is based off your vigorous activity (harder efforts can be even less but this roughly equates to marathon effort or approx 77-80% HRR)

For your easy runs which should be about 60-65% of your max HR, fat can contribute up to 50% of the overall fuel source meaning that an hour easy would not come close to depleting glycogen stores.

The Fool

Myles Splitz wrote: »

The problem with that is that you are not taking into account intensity levels. An hour easy will not burn anywhere near that amount of carbs.

The two hour storage is based off your vigorous activity (harder efforts can be even less but this roughly equates to marathon effort or approx 77-80% HRR)

For your easy runs which should be about 60-65% of your max HR, fat can contribute up to 50% of the overall fuel source meaning that an hour easy would not come close to depleting glycogen stores.

That's a very good point that I hadn't considered. I suppose it depends on your level. For some of us there's no such thing as an easy run

Enduro

Jaysus that first linked article isn't great at all is it. But considering the source I'm too surprised.

On the subject of marathon nutrition I love the quote from the end of the Steve Jones interview referenced in the recent thread:

Distance running is all about stress and coping with stress. All these gadgets and gimmicks, they take the stress away from it. So when you’re in a race and you don’t have all that stuff on your arms or your pockets or your favorite drink, you don’t know how to cope. You miss your first water stop and you think, “Oh my god, my race is screwed.” But it’s not, you’ve still got eight more water stops to get to. It’s just different to what I was used to. Towards the end of my career, heart-rate monitors started to come in and special drinks too. I broke a world record on Mars bars and Diet Coke, so I’m a good argument against all of the other stuff.

So there you go. Mars bars and cokes -> world record

The Fool, maybe you might want to look up waterlogged (Helpful hint)
. A lot of the research saying that drinking large volumes of liquid, and even better sports drinks, was funded by sports drinks manufacturers. More modern independant research tend to debunk that research. In the end it all does come down to Drink when you're thirsty. A few billion years of evolution has evolved a mechanism which is highly effective at regulating the human body's hydration.

You also seem to be fixated on High Carbs based on some dodgy theorising on glycogen depletion. Have a look at this, and see if it gives you an opening to a different approach...

(For the record, I won the last 2 marathons I took part in (they were off road though), whilst consuming about half a litre of liquid over the course of each race, and no food whatsoever).

TFBubendorfer

The Fool wrote: »

I don't know about hunger but drink when you thirsty wouldn't be good advice imo.
Thirst is a very poor indicator of your hydration.

The Fool wrote: »

I suppose my way of thinking is if you're thirsty you'reare already to some degree dehydrated

That was the standard advice when I started running, about 10 years ago. Things have moved on since then and the above advice was basically sponsored by Gatorade and the likes.

Not only is thirst the perfect indicator for hydration levels (evolution did its job here), a little bit of dehydration has no effect on performance levels whatsoever. When they tested the hydration status at various marathons, the winner was almost always the most dehydrated person and it obviously did not affect his performance.

On top of that, drinking ahead of thirst can actually be dangerous. A number of runners have died in marathons due to hypernatremia after following that advice to too great an extend.

See

http://running.competitor.com/2014/05/nutrition/the-truth-about-dehydration-and-performance_76027
or
http://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-science/thirst-v-dehydration-the-continuing-saga

(I know neither are scientific magazines but both articles link to proper studies)

The Fool

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

That was the standard advice when I started running, about 10 years ago. Things have moved on since then and the above advice was basically sponsored by Gatorade and the likes.

Not only is thirst the perfect indicator for hydration levels (evolution did its job here), a little bit of dehydration has no effect on performance levels whatsoever. When they tested the hydration status at various marathons, the winner was almost always the most dehydrated person and it obviously did not affect his performance.

On top of that, drinking ahead of thirst can actually be dangerous. A number of runners have died in marathons due to hypernatremia after following that advice to too great an extend.

See

http://running.competitor.com/2014/05/nutrition/the-truth-about-dehydration-and-performance_76027
or
http://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-science/thirst-v-dehydration-the-continuing-saga

(I know neither are scientific magazines but both articles link to proper studies)

Thirst isn't even a good indicator that your thirsty
Some of us regularly mistake thirst for hunger. :-)

Overloading with water is not a good idea, I suppose what I was getting at is you'd want to have a fair idea of your personal sweat rate and plan accordingly. Thirst might be a good indicator but I would't rely on it alone.

TFBubendorfer

The Fool wrote: »

Thirst isn't even a good indicator that your thirsty
Some of us regularly mistake thirst for hunger. :-)

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

I just ran a race in Greece where it was around 30 degrees for most of the (first) day and thirst was working very well as an indicator.