Grey squirrels

cd07

has anyone else seen a lot of dead greys recently? I've seen at least 15 over the past two weeks and they weren't road kill some of them were still hanging on to trees others just dead on the ground none of the showing any sign of injury. any ideas?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

You need to report this to NPWS as there may be poison laid that may affect other animals but as an alien species they themselves are not protected.

cd07

I doubt its poisoning as they have been in several different parts of south and north Dublin !

Roselm

cd07 wrote: »

I doubt its poisoning as they have been in several different parts of south and north Dublin !

Could be a virus that could affect other animals though

mecksimay

cd07 wrote: »

I doubt its poisoning as they have been in several different parts of south and north Dublin !

I have been doing some research on squirrels in Ireland for the past couple of years and I would be interested to hear which parts of Dublin did you see these squirrels? Have you contacted NPWS yet?

cd07

I saw 6 in the phoenix park and several more around the naul area and more around balbriggan. I haven't contacted any department as of yet

dodderangler

Seeing loads on the roads lately and more so in the house estates.
Wouldn't e squirrel pox would it. That's lethal

mecksimay

dodderangler wrote: »

Seeing loads on the roads lately and more so in the house estates.
Wouldn't e squirrel pox would it. That's lethal

Squirrelpox virus is lethal for red squirrels. Greys carry the disease but it's asymptomatic.

Have you seen these dead grey squirrels around Dublin too, or in another part of the country?

Greenmachine

Could this be a controlled cull of greys in designated areas. I know this happens in UK where red start to resettle.

magicbastarder

they do have culls in the phoenix park, but i am not sure if they trap them rather than laying out poison?

Birdnuts

magicbastarder wrote: »

they do have culls in the phoenix park, but i am not sure if they trap them rather than laying out poison?

AFAIK they do indeed trap those squirrels.There are no poisons licenced for use on squirrels in this country - therefore poisoning would indeed be illegal. TBH is sounds like some type of virus is hitting the population as I've seen fair few dead ones on roads around Blessington too.

dodderangler

mecksimay wrote: »

Squirrelpox virus is lethal for red squirrels. Greys carry the disease but it's asymptomatic.

Have you seen these dead grey squirrels around Dublin too, or in another part of the country?

In tallaght and seeing a lot more of squirrels in parks now aswell

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

If anybody suspects a virus than please report to NWPS immediately and bag a body for testing, if possible. There is no known virus in Ireland at present that kills Grey Squirrels, so it would be imperative to report suspect cases without delay.

There are always increased roadkills of Squirrel at this time of year.

Greenmachine

I have not seen any of the squirrels myself so, have no idea how people are determine they are being poisoned instead of culled. Other than I guess with a controlled cull, the carcasses would be removed at the time of cull, but, that would be a guess.

Big Nasty

I haven't seen any dead squirrels myself but did start a thread here a couple of months back as there seems to be an explosion in the grey squirrel population in South Dublin, particularly around the Marlay Park area the last few years. I also saw a red squirrel in Ticknock last week - first I've seen in years.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Official culls trap and remove. Who would cull and leave carcasses scattered about? This would be illegal on Health and Safety grounds.

Capercaillie

Demetrius Weak Skullcap wrote: »

Official culls trap and remove. Who would cull and leave carcasses scattered about? This would be illegal on Health and Safety grounds.

Probably illegal to leave carcasses scattered around. Most people who shot crows/foxes just throw them into a ditch or hang the foxes on gates.

Greenmachine

Could be a long shot, but could some prize individual be shooting them for sport. I seem to remember some UK lads magazine way back in the 90's advertising some of the rifle style BB guns for pest control. I understand those advert are illegal now, but would not stop a gormless individual from shooting a little animal.

Capercaillie

Greenmachine wrote: »

Could be a long shot, but could some prize individual be shooting them for sport. I seem to remember some UK lads magazine way back in the 90's advertising some of the rifle style BB guns for pest control. I understand those advert are illegal now, but would not stop a gormless individual from shooting a little animal.

Grey squirrels are an invasive species in Ireland, anything legal that can be done to reduce their numbers (including shooting) can only be a good thing.

Grey Squirrels now found in the Raven nature Reserve in Wexford. This site contains one of the last healthy populations on the East Coast for Red Squirrels. The wood was isolated from grey squirrels due to the lack of hedgerow connections to the wood. In recent weeks grey squirrels have been found there. Somebody must have released the grey squirrels there.

OpenYourEyes

Capercaillie wrote: »

Grey squirrels are an invasive species in Ireland, anything legal that can be done to reduce their numbers (including shooting) can only be a good thing.

I fully agree in places with both Reds and Greys, or at the edge of the range of Greys to peg them back and stop them expanding, but shooting the odd Grey Squirrel here and there in a high density area that isnt near the edge of their range, or where there's no Reds, is pretty pointless! Unless efforts are targeted in some way, they have no tangible effect on the problem.

Greenmachine

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I fully agree in places with both Reds and Greys, or at the edge of the range of Greys to peg them back and stop them expanding, but shooting the odd Grey Squirrel here and there in a high density area that isnt near the edge of their range, or where there's no Reds, is pretty pointless! Unless efforts are targeted in some way, they have no tangible effect on the problem.

Absolutely, can't have people doing what regarding culling, even if they are an invasive species. Any kind of strategy should be coordinated.

recedite

cd07 wrote: »

they weren't road kill some of them were still hanging on to trees

What do you mean by "hanging on to trees"? Dead and hanging on

Capercaillie wrote: »

Grey Squirrels now found in the Raven nature Reserve in Wexford. This site contains one of the last healthy populations on the East Coast for Red Squirrels. The wood was isolated from grey squirrels due to the lack of hedgerow connections to the wood. In recent weeks grey squirrels have been found there. Somebody must have released the grey squirrels there.

Nearly every country road has a hedgerow on each side.
Its far more likely that the squirrels walked there by themselves.

Markcheese

Capercaillie wrote: »

Grey squirrels are an invasive species in Ireland, anything legal that can be done to reduce their numbers (including shooting) can only be a good thing.

Grey Squirrels now found in the Raven nature Reserve in Wexford. This site contains one of the last healthy populations on the East Coast for Red Squirrels. The wood was isolated from grey squirrels due to the lack of hedgerow connections to the wood. In recent weeks grey squirrels have been found there. Somebody must have released the grey squirrels there.

Could anyone actually be that thick ?

Capercaillie

recedite wrote: »

What do you mean by "hanging on to trees"? Dead and hanging on


Nearly every country road has a hedgerow on each side.
Its far more likely that the squirrels walked there by themselves.

Not the Raven, the lack of hedgerow connectivity to the wood has protected it till now. Almost certainly some idiot who released it.

OpenYourEyes

recedite wrote: »

What do you mean by "hanging on to trees"? Dead and hanging on


Nearly every country road has a hedgerow on each side.
Its far more likely that the squirrels walked there by themselves.

Capercaillie wrote: »

Not the Raven, the lack of hedgerow connectivity to the wood has protected it till now. Almost certainly some idiot who released it.

According to a report on Red Squirrel conservation potential in the Raven, by Naulty, Carr and Hayden from UCD SBES:

Site defendability:
The Raven is rated as good under landscape defendability and excellent under buffer size (see
table 13 and 14). The Raven is naturally protected from grey squirrels invasion on three sides.
To the east and south the site is protected by the sea and to the west by the Wexford slobs.
This leaves only a narrow strip through which squirrel movements could occur. The
hedgerows in the surrounding area are also only moderately favourable for dispersal of grey
squirrels (see figure 20). The nearest known grey squirrel population is located ~6km away in
Ballyregan, Castlebridge (see figure 21). An examination of the 1km surrounding the
entrance of the Reserve indicates no direct corridor of trees and few mature trees (see figure
22). The hedgerow along the road is dominated by hawthorn. Local residents indicated that
only red squirrels are found in the area between The Raven and Curracloe village.

Full report available here: http://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/Naulty_et_al_2009_Red%20Squirrels%20of%20Raven.pdf

Drummerboy2

There has been lots in the Botanic Gardens. Although there have been culls they still remain and have spread to the Glasnevin Cemetery and to lots of neighbouring housing estates.

recedite

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

According to a report on Red Squirrel conservation potential in the Raven, by Naulty, Carr and Hayden from UCD SBES:
Full report available here: http://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/Naulty_et_al_2009_Red%20Squirrels%20of%20Raven.pdf

To quote Oscar Wilde, this was merely the triumph of hope over experience.
The detail of the report is facidious, but the conclusions were unrealistic.
I put into bold what I consider to be the salient points..

Site defendability:
The Raven is rated as good under landscape defendability and excellent under buffer size (see table 13 and 14). The Raven is naturally protected from grey squirrels invasion on three sides. To the east and south the site is protected by the sea and to the west by the Wexford slobs.
This leaves only a narrow strip through which squirrel movements could occur. The hedgerows in the surrounding area are also only moderately favourable for dispersal of grey squirrels (see figure 20). The nearest known grey squirrel population is located ~6km away in Ballyregan, Castlebridge (see figure 21). An examination of the 1km surrounding the entrance of the Reserve indicates no direct corridor of trees and few mature trees (see figure 22). The hedgerow along the road is dominated by hawthorn. Local residents indicated that only red squirrels are found in the area between The Raven and Curracloe village.

If red squirrels are commonly found in these hedgerows outside the forest, why would anyone think that grey squirrels would stay out of them?
6km from a sizeable population centre of greys? That is very close.

I have been to the Raven many times, and IMO the surrounding area is very typical farmland landscape; it is no more squirrel proof than any other part of the country. BTW I recommend going there in the spring, there are loads of smooth newts and natterjack toads to be seen, and a lovely beach walk.

All is not lost for the reds however. The forest is mostly exotic pines which gives the advantage to the reds as they are better at feeding from cones.
There also seems to be various garden plants growing wild there. I could be mistaken, but I think the Raven is similar to Bull Island in Dublin; ie somewhat artificially created and then it became a recreational area for the nearby city. We are not talking about a last remnant of Irelands native woodland here. Its more like an experimental ecological park. What I'd do is throw a few pine martens into the mix now, and see what happens.

Capercaillie

recedite wrote: »

To quote Oscar Wilde, this was merely the triumph of hope over experience.
The detail of the report is facidious, but the conclusions were unrealistic.
I put into bold what I consider to be the salient points..If red squirrels are commonly found in these hedgerows outside the forest, why would anyone think that grey squirrels would stay out of them?
6km from a sizeable population centre of greys? That is very close.

I have been to the Raven many times, and IMO the surrounding area is very typical farmland landscape; it is no more squirrel proof than any other part of the country. BTW I recommend going there in the spring, there are loads of smooth newts and natterjack toads to be seen, and a lovely beach walk.

All is not lost for the reds however. The forest is mostly exotic pines which gives the advantage to the reds as they are better at feeding from cones.
There also seems to be various garden plants growing wild there. I could be mistaken, but I think the Raven is similar to Bull Island in Dublin; ie somewhat artificially created and then it became a recreational area for the nearby city. We are not talking about a last remnant of Irelands native woodland here. Its more like an experimental ecological park. What I'd do is throw a few pine martens into the mix now, and see what happens.

The link put up be OYE is done by leaders in the field of Red Squirrel conservation, so probably safe to say it's correct to say that the Raven due to it's lack of connectivity to Grey squirrel populations was safe, until now.

The grey squirrels could be carriers of squirrel pox and could transmit it to the reds and exterminate the population. This population has been isolated till now from the greys, so would be totally naive to the virus.

Safest thing would be to set non-kill traps ASAP and try and catch the greys rather than releasing pine marten. Pine Marten have rather large home ranges, would the raven forest be even big enough? If they were isolated in such a small place they cold kill all the red squirrels.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Capercaillie wrote: »

The link put up be OYE is done by leaders in the field of Red Squirrel conservation, so probably safe to say it's correct to say that the Raven due to it's lack of connectivity to Grey squirrel populations was safe, until now.

The grey squirrels could be carriers of squirrel pox and could transmit it to the reds and exterminate the population. This population has been isolated till now from the greys, so would be totally naive to the virus.

Safest thing would be to set non-kill traps ASAP and try and catch the greys rather than releasing pine marten. Pine Marten have rather large home ranges, would the raven forest be even big enough? If they were isolated in such a small place they cold kill all the red squirrels.

The range of a Pine Marten goes from 60 hectares to over 400 hectares. Reds are fairly safe from them as the Pine Marten can't access the thin branches the Reds can escape to. Reds seem to thrive where they coexist with Pine Martens

Capercaillie

Demetrius Weak Skullcap wrote: »

The range of a Pine Marten goes from 60 hectares to over 400 hectares. Reds are fairly safe from them as the Pine Marten can't access the thin branches the Reds can escape to. Reds seem to thrive where they coexist with Pine Martens

100% correct, but Pine marten can still prey on Reds. It's just much easier for them to catch greys. In a small area size like the raven and with the range of 60ha-400ha you have posted up, the reds could be at danger.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Capercaillie wrote: »

100% correct, but Pine marten can still prey on Reds. It's just much easier for them to catch greys. In a small area size like the raven and with the range of 60ha-400ha you have posted up, the reds could be at danger.

Oh agreed for sure.

cerastes

Are Pine Martens predators of Red squirrels? I read in the last year that the reemergence of pine martens was having a positive effect in reducing grey squirrel numbers.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

cerastes wrote: »

Are Pine Martens predators of Red squirrels? I read in the last year that the reemergence of pine martens was having a positive effect in reducing grey squirrel numbers.

Pine Martens are certainly reducing the number of Greys, so this is good news for the Reds. They will however also take Reds if they can.

recedite

I'd imagine that the pine martens would kill all the greys and a portion of the reds. And then move out, probably to that other forest 6km away that was mentioned as being a stronghold of the greys.

BTW I wonder can squirrels and martens see and recognise a forest from a distance of 6km?
I wouldn't be surprsed, it would be a good evolutionary advantage to have.
If so, it would only take them an hour or two to get there.

Capercaillie

recedite wrote: »

I'd imagine that the pine martens would kill all the greys and a portion of the reds. And then move out, probably to that other forest 6km away that was mentioned as being a stronghold of the greys.

BTW I wonder can squirrels and martens see and recognise a forest from a distance of 6km?
I wouldn't be surprsed, it would be a good evolutionary advantage to have.
If so, it would only take them an hour or two to get there.

They would probably remain in the Raven forest and clear the place out of red squirrel. They would be a danger to the greenland white fronted geese as well. I don't know if there is any habitat that would support pine marten in the area besides the Raven which would be too small. OYE worked in the area previously so he would probably know if suitable habitat is present.