report a cheat???

Mr abbey

Just wondering what people would do if played with someone in club cheating? Played a round with a guy and marked his card, had him for xx points. Later on results seen he had 5 pts more on howdidido and came in prizes.
Was worried I made a mistake (but knew I couldn't of made errors equaling 5pts) and asked club to see the card.
Never got to see card because of genuine club mistake.
Played with same guy again and didn't mark his card so wasn't sure of his score. Then when checking my result on howdodido noticed he had more points than i thought he had.
When I looked at his round on it I seen he had entered pars on two holes I knew he scratched.

Don't think he is changing scores to win prizes, think he is doing it to make his h/c lower for vanity reasons because he just sneaked into prizes on a low scoring day the first time.

Point to add, is our 3rd man on the 2nd round thought the same guy dropped a ball beside his trolley, when we couldnt find his ball on a hole, so he's probably not just changing his scores on computer either.

Mental situation, but I am new member and didn't follow up after i never got to see card in 1st place but he was in prizes last week again and my mate is cracking up that I wont or didn't report him.

Just wondering what other people would do if in similar situation.

dan_ep82

I'd generally be very reluctant to call anyone on any rules but thats blatant cheating. Maybe someone else see's him but decides they'll do it aswell and so on leaving the idea of a comp pointless

Not sure what you can do about it though?

You'll need proof and to get that you'll need to play with him again, would you want to waste your golf time ?

Maybe say it to his playing partners or something to just double check his scores

Clive Bisquette

New member ..just keep your head down ..you can';t win!

Chances are if the guy is so blatant in the cheating he is under observation already...just steer clear is my advice...he will come to grief!

First Up

Mr abbey wrote: »

Just wondering what people would do if played with someone in club cheating? Played a round with a guy and marked his card, had him for xx points. Later on results seen he had 5 pts more on howdidido and came in prizes.
Was worried I made a mistake (but knew I couldn't of made errors equaling 5pts) and asked club to see the card.
Never got to see card because of genuine club mistake.
Played with same guy again and didn't mark his card so wasn't sure of his score. Then when checking my result on howdodido noticed he had more points than i thought he had.
When I looked at his round on it I seen he had entered pars on two holes I knew he scratched.

Don't think he is changing scores to win prizes, think he is doing it to make his h/c lower for vanity reasons because he just sneaked into prizes on a low scoring day the first time.

Point to add, is our 3rd man on the 2nd round thought the same guy dropped a ball beside his trolley, when we couldnt find his ball on a hole, so he's probably not just changing his scores on computer either.

Mental situation, but I am new member and didn't follow up after i never got to see card in 1st place but he was in prizes last week again and my mate is cracking up that I wont or didn't report him.

Just wondering what other people would do if in similar situation.

Very tough one.

Best I can suggest is you try to have a private moment with the guy and you tell him your concerns - off the record. Be as diplomatic as possible but be clear and specific about it and how it impacts on you.

He may storm off and never talk to you again but you will have done the right thing and my guess is it will have the right effect.

Don't bring others into it; just describe what you think you saw and what problems it caused you. It won't be fun but you will have done the club a service and you will feel better about it - eventually.

HighLine

Clive Bisquette wrote: »

New member ..just keep your head down ..you can';t win!

Chances are if the guy is so blatant in the cheating he is under observation already...just steer clear is my advice...he will come to grief!

Balls to that. If he is sure he is blatantly cheating then I'd rather accept any grief for doing the right thing rather than keeping the head down for an easy life.

Russman

Very difficult to prove, and if it gets into a "he said, she said" situation where it's your word against his........

What you "should" do is tell the comp sec that yer man didn't have the scores that were credited to him on the computer. They should have a fair idea of the situation if you've already asked to see the card anyway. Whether that's a road you want to go down.......well.......

Just steer clear in future and maybe have a word with him in private with no witnesses and ask him was there a mistake, how did he have that score etc ?

jelutong

Did you sign his card?

Kingswood Rover

In a situation like this a quiet word off the record to the competition sec or handicap sec emphasizing that you want your anonymity respected should enable some type of monitoring to be put in place. They will be able to look at person's card and see if the holes in question were altered to correspond with his how did i do record, all changes need the initials of the marker.

Mr abbey

jelutong wrote: »

Did you sign his card?

Yes, i signed the card on the 1st round but he must of entered different scores on computer. 2nd time another lad did but when I looked at his scorecard on howdidido "whoever" entered scores had put pars in for two holes I know he scratched

Mr abbey

jelutong wrote: »

Did you sign his card?

Yes, i signed the card on the 1st round but he must of entered different scores on computer. 2nd time another lad did but when I looked at his scorecard on howdidido "whoever" entered scores had put pars in for two holes I know he scratched

Mr abbey

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

In a situation like this a quiet word off the record to the competition sec or handicap sec emphasizing that you want your anonymity respected should enable some type of monitoring to be put in place. They will be able to look at person's card and see if the holes in question were altered to correspond with his how did i do record, all changes need the initials of the marker.

That sounds quite sensible. Definitely wouldn't like to be dragged into an awkward aituation but maybe will mention it again quietly about the 2nd inciddent and leave it to be monitored and checked by someone official

PARlance

I would have no issue "marking his card" the next time you see him. Congratulate him on it and let the silence speak for itself.

They'll be watching his scores/cards from now on hopefully.

Was he a low HC'er?
I know of one instance this year were a guy was doing the same. He wasn't doing it for prizes but he was keeping it low enough in order to qualify for prestigious amateur comps. He wasn't a member for long after a few people sussed it.

Dtoffee

Under no circumstancers would I talk to the guy at this late stage. He appears to be a serious serial cheat and you are basically allowing him to continue. Put your observations in writing to the committee and let them deal with it, if you continue to ignore his cheating, then you are as guilty as him.

First Up

Dtoffee wrote: »

Under no circumstancers would I talk to the guy at this late stage. He appears to be a serious serial cheat and you are basically allowing him to continue. Put your observations in writing to the committee and let them deal with it, if you continue to ignore his cheating, then you are as guilty as him.

Don't agree. All the OP has to address is the matters he was directly involved in and can stand over. Allegations of "serious, serial cheating" are bringing it into very different and dangerous territory.

The fair - and legally sustainable - way is to deal first with the guy directly and give him an opportunity to respond. Depending on how that goes the OP can decide if he wants to take it further but he will then be on firm ground.

But the ONLY matter the OP should address is his direct experience. The rest is hearsay and potentially very messy.

fullstop

Mr abbey wrote: »

Yes, i signed the card on the 1st round but he must of entered different scores on computer. 2nd time another lad did but when I looked at his scorecard on howdidido "whoever" entered scores had put pars in for two holes I know he scratched

Well the score on the card overrides the score on the computer so he must have changed the card as well as it would have been cross-referenced. I'd definitely be saying it to the comp sec.

First Up

fullstop wrote: »

Well the score on the card overrides the score on the computer so he must have changed the card as well as it would have been cross-referenced. I'd definitely be saying it to the comp sec.

I would say it to the perpetrator first.

fullstop

First Up wrote: »

I would say it to the perpetrator first.

Not a chance. People willing to cheat like this have no shame and I'd wager he'd probably make a complaint if you said it to him, making you look bad.

superfurry1

Was this the guy in question?

First Up

Nope, it is called due process. If the OP complains to the Committee without giving the accused a chance to account for himself, he is leaving it open to legal challenges on several fronts, including defamation.

Senna

Do you know any committee members, or maybe a team captain or just someone who's been at the club a long time?
Have a quiet word in their ear, you'll probably find they are aware of it already. Clubs by nature are small and any messing about is normally known by everyone, but nothing might be done about it.

First Up

This is crazy advice lads. Think about it. The technical term for "having words in someone's ear" is slander. If the alleged offender is any way litigious you are giving him enough ammunition to keep the legal profession in funds for months.

You either you play this straight down the middle by taking it up with the person concerned and then seeing where that leaves it - or else you forget about it.

Senna

We don't all worry about being sued and seek legal advice for every situation.
Yes you are right, but if we all followed it, we would never speak to other members. Bandits, teams winning classic, interclub games, etc are discussed at length daily and most of it would be slander or what ever the term is.

First Up

So you think it is OK to mutter about stuff behind peoples' backs but not to have the moxy to deal with it directly?

Yep, that'll improve things.

fullstop

Seeing as you insist upon using the term 'slander', for it to be slander he would have to be making false statements.

Kingswood Rover

First Up wrote: »

Nope, it is called due process. If the OP complains to the Committee without giving the accused a chance to account for himself, he is leaving it open to legal challenges on several fronts, including defamation.

Not if it is off the record, let them be aware of it and catch him in the act that takes the OP out of it... totally agree that if the committee subsequently find grounds to reprimand the person over altering scores it may indeed go legal.

First Up

No such thing as "off the record". We are not talking about journalism.

HighLine

Just to be clear on the defamation (no longer a libel/slander distinction under Irish law) element... yes you are leaving yourself open to litigation if you are posting on social media or spreading the rumours in the bar.

However, if you say to the Captain that "I played with Paddy and the scores on his card/howdidido, were not the scores that I signed for or witnessed" then that is perfectly fine and is what should happen in the OP's predicament IMO.

First Up

fullstop wrote: »

Seeing as you insist upon using the term 'slander', for it to be slander he would have to be making false statements.

Which presumably would be the position of the accused until the OP - and the club - could prove it in court.

There is a good chance that a warning shot in the form of a private conversation between the two parties would put an end to his behaviour, as he would know he was under scrutiny. But charging in head first with an accusation would put his back to the wall and could start a very expensive chain reaction.

Why risk it?

First Up

In response to HighLine - I'm just suggesting that he first shares his concerns with Paddy and gives him the opportunity to respond. The ball is then back in Paddy's court. If the OP is not satisfied after that, he is perfectly justified in telling the captain or committee about it.

BraveDonut

Surely there are two different cases here.
Seeing someone cheating on the course is a difficult one to prove and definitely comes down to your word against theirs.

The other case, where a scorecard is altered, is more open and shut for me.
If I sign a card as marker, that is my attestation as to the score the player achieved. If the card is changed after that signature, it possibly calls my good name into question and would make it appear that I was complicit in the cheating.
I would not pussy-foot around that situation. I would call this player out in any forum. It should not be my opinion that I signed for the original score - it should be considered fact.

Hacker111

I imagine he is well known in the club as a cheat.... these guys are infamous.... personally while I note that you are a new member you must do what is right.... draft a letter regarding both rounds.... state your concerns... send it to the Captain of the Men's Club... they will deal with the matter.... it may be a he said she said scenario but its out there formally and he will be skating on thin ice going forward.....there could already be letters about him on file... i know guys who have reported people and had them suspended for 6 months.... rules are the rules

Russman

Hacker111 wrote: »

I imagine he is well known in the club as a cheat.... these guys are infamous.... personally while I note that you are a new member you must do what is right.... draft a letter regarding both rounds.... state your concerns... send it to the Captain of the Men's Club... they will deal with the matter.... it may be a he said she said scenario but its out there formally and he will be skating on thin ice going forward.....there could already be letters about him on file... i know guys who have reported people and had them suspended for 6 months.... rules are the rules

Rules are rules indeed, and in this situation there's I suppose some grounds for the Op to go the route of "that's not the score I witnessed or signed for", but the whole area of cheating is such dodgy ground, it'd be easy for it to escalate into a whirlwind. They might get him for altering a card however, unless he says it wasn't him.

We had a case years ago where the committee sent out spotters with binoculars to watch a notorious cheat in a team event and when the scores on the card didn't match up with what was witnessed, his response was simply along the lines of ".....ohh gosh, you're right, it was a 6 not a 5, yes, apologies, my mistake....." Very little they could do apart from a DQ. His playing partners weren't complicit and genuinely hadn't a clue what he was up to, lets just say older gentlemen, slightly naïve.

I'd still go the route of speaking to him directly about the scores and putting the ball in his court by simply asking was there a mistake and seeing his response.

BraveDonut

Calling someone out on their actual score for a hole is really quite difficult. I see this as the most rampant form of casual cheating.

If a player is all over the place on a hole and marker knows they had a triple-bogey, the marker generally feels obliged to ask the score.

Marker: "What did you have there?"
Player: "6!"
Marker: "......okay....."

or
(innocently)
Marker: "Did you have a 6 there ?
Player: "Yes!"

The other 2 players in the fourball may notice this but they will never say anything.

Seve OB

BraveDonut wrote: »

Calling someone out on their actual score for a hole is really quite difficult. I see this as the most rampant form of casual cheating.

If a player is all over the place on a hole and marker knows they had a triple-bogey, the marker generally feels obliged to ask the score.

Marker: "What did you have there?"
Player: "6!"
Marker: "......okay....."

or
(innocently)
Marker: "Did you have a 6 there ?
Player: "Yes!"

The other 2 players in the fourball may notice this but the will never say anything.

Or just mark them down for the triple bogey you know they had and say nothing. let them try and call you on it at the end of the round and walk through the shots!

or say, "7 for you there"...... "no, a 6" ..... "are you sure?".... walk through the shots! it's not that hard.


I played with someone the other day who was having a bit of a mare, like myself :rolleyes: but the third guy was marking his card. First guy hit a ball in trees on right, I went down other fairway to left, I was pretty sure I saw him play it back into middle of fairway then he hit a great shot in and sunk the put for par. Marker called out "good birdie" which threw me and I meant to say something at the time but got distracted and forgot.

I noticed he is down for a birdie on HDID, but he got his .1 back and I'm not going to tackle him over it now as I'm sure it was a genuine mistake. However, if my marker put me down for a birdie, I think I would remember having one and fix it!

BraveDonut

I would not expect the player to argue that he had a 6 if you indicated 7 - It's that whole process of asking what he had and if he lies, you need to say "Are you sure?" - I would definitely stand my ground there.

If I had an inkling that he was going to say 6 (you sometimes do) I would be sure to say "Hard luck, that was a 7, wasn't it?" and not ask what he had

Hacker111

BraveDonut wrote: »

I would not expect the player to argue that he had a 6 if you indicated 7 - It's that whole process of asking what he had and if he lies, you need to say "Are you sure?" - I would definitely stand my ground there.

If I had an inkling that he was going to say 6 (you sometimes do) I would be sure to say "Hard luck, that was a 7, wasn't it?" and not ask what he had

twice i have had my score questioned by markers... I simply walked them through each shot..... although I was vindicated both times I was not happy and it did rattle me for a few holes.

Seve OB

Hacker111 wrote: »

twice i have had my score questioned by markers... I simply walked them through each shot..... although I was vindicated both times I was not happy and it did rattle me for a few holes.

why? if you walked them through your shots and you were right, i don't see what the problem is? mistakes happen, and by the looks of it, yours were easily and calmly resolved, but yet you were rattled for a few holes

gokster

The biggest problem in dealing with cheats is that club committees and even the provincial branches are petrified of the legal ramifications...know of one case where club acted but branch didn't want to know a thing about it.

Someone I know very well has been on club committee/council on and off for 30 years and the main issue is unless the guy is caught on camera or admits it it is very difficult to take it further.

Unless the OP and the third player on the second day are prepared to give evidence before committee it will be difficult to go any further as you are left with one persons word against another...

If people are serious about tackling this though they need the powers that be to row in behind clubs...and show a little bit of backbone

First Up

gokster wrote: »

The biggest problem in dealing with cheats is that club committees and even the provincial branches are petrified of the legal ramifications...know of one case where club acted but branch didn't want to know a thing about it.

Someone I know very well has been on club committee/council on and off for 30 years and the main issue is unless the guy is caught on camera or admits it it is very difficult to take it further.

Unless the OP and the third player on the second day are prepared to give evidence before committee it will be difficult to go any further as you are left with one persons word against another...

If people are serious about tackling this though they need the powers that be to row in behind clubs...and show a little bit of backbone

Yes, there have been some very nasty cases and once it goes to court, everyone loses.

Which is why people should be very careful about throwing around allegations and especially saying things like "I imagine he's a well known cheat" or other prejudicial comments.

Play it straight down the middle and that HAS to start with a one to one conversation with the other player over the specifics of the incident. Nothing else should come into it. Not a word to the captain, committee and (for feck's sake) nothing in writing until that has taken place. If the OP is still concerned after that, then he simply puts a full record of his version AND of the conversation to the committee.

Any other advice is nuts.

denishurley

BraveDonut wrote: »

Calling someone out on their actual score for a hole is really quite difficult. I see this as the most rampant form of casual cheating.

If a player is all over the place on a hole and marker knows they had a triple-bogey, the marker generally feels obliged to ask the score.

Marker: "What did you have there?"
Player: "6!"
Marker: "......okay....."

or
(innocently)
Marker: "Did you have a 6 there ?
Player: "Yes!"

The other 2 players in the fourball may notice this but they will never say anything.

I've never encountered blatant cheating, but a few times I've been marking and have had to question the score a player gave for a hole. I knew I was right in each case, so I didn't see any problem in doing so.

Russman

Don't think there should ever be a problem in querying a score, but like a lot of things, it can be very dependent on the tone used. Its the simplest thing in the world to do it in such a way so it doesn't come across as accusatory. People can make genuine mistakes.

That being said, when I ask whoever's card I'm marking what he had on a hole, I take it as gospel, I certainly wouldn't be counting his shots. I'd probably know if a number sounded wrong, but equally might not.

Mantis Toboggan

Hacker111 wrote: »

twice i have had my score questioned by markers... I simply walked them through each shot..... although I was vindicated both times I was not happy and it did rattle me for a few holes.

Don't understand this at all

rrpc

Dennis Reynolds wrote: »

Don't understand this at all

If you're queried on your score for a hole, it can be a bit off-putting. You can almost think you might have been wrong and only walking through the shots can clear that up. But it can get in your head that your partners are watching you and are almost accusing you of cheating.

It's easy to remember when you have a par or a birdie, but when you've six or seven shots on a hole, you can sometimes doubt yourself when queried.

Domo1982

I think that anybody with a reasonable level of emotional intelligence would be impacted by being questioned during a round for sure

Panrich

Hacker111 wrote: »

twice i have had my score questioned by markers... I simply walked them through each shot..... although I was vindicated both times I was not happy and it did rattle me for a few holes.

I'd just walk them through the shots and simply remark afterwards along the lines of "it's no biggie, don't be embarrassed. Some people are just not as good at counting as others."

Deise Vu

Seve OB wrote: »

Or just mark them down for the triple bogey you know they had and say nothing. let them try and call you on it at the end of the round and walk through the shots!

or say, "7 for you there"...... "no, a 6" ..... "are you sure?".... walk through the shots! it's not that hard.


I played with someone the other day who was having a bit of a mare, like myself :rolleyes: but the third guy was marking his card. First guy hit a ball in trees on right, I went down other fairway to left, I was pretty sure I saw him play it back into middle of fairway then he hit a great shot in and sunk the put for par. Marker called out "good birdie" which threw me and I meant to say something at the time but got distracted and forgot.

I noticed he is down for a birdie on HDID, but he got his .1 back and I'm not going to tackle him over it now as I'm sure it was a genuine mistake. However, if my marker put me down for a birdie, I think I would remember having one and fix it!

I played in the local qualifiers for a national competition that was in Scotch Foursomes format. Neither team was doing well when we played the first par 5. They had an 8 and no score (they had a shot on the hole). They asked me what they scored and I shrugged my shoulders not wanting to say 8 (although I knew from the four putt), they had a quick consultation and came up with "7? , yep definitely a 7" (one of them even had a teenage caddy who also agreed it was a 7).

I let them off as they weren't going to bring in any kind of a score. At the next par 5, the exact same comedy played out so I told them they had an 8. They didn't even believe me when I pointed out that player A had the drive and player B had the last putt and it couldn't, therefore, be an uneven number score.

So then I had to walk them through their shots and they went "Oh yeah forgot about that duff chip". We played on but you could tell they thought I was some kind of rules Nazi and things were more than a bit frosty after that. I think in future I would just let it go if it isn't going to effect prizes.

I am still gobsmacked at the bovine expressions on their faces when I was explaining the alternate shot thing to them though!

benny79

I have often been queried on a hole and have queried others dont find it off putting at all! Especially if you have been all over the place. As sometimes I could be right or wrong forget a duff chipped I had or vice versa. It happens although rare but I try not to count my strokes while in play on the hole as it detracts from my concentration on the shot in hand.

So just count them up when I finish out but can sometimes be wrong! but If I question myself I will count the hole out a few times while walking to next tee or ask person marking my card just to be sure.

First Up

Absolutely nothing wrong with a marker checking the score on a hole. By rights, the marker should keep tabs as the hole progresses and then verify - i.e instead of asking "what did you have there", you say "I have you as a 5 there" and if the player disagrees, you review. Not always possible but it usually is and its part of the marker's job.

It just involves paying attention.

Dbu

I avoid all the 'what did you have there' by recording my own score in the box provided on my playing partners card
Easy so see discrepancy when signing

First Up

I assume everyone does that but it is still advisable (to put it mildly) to check and agree after every hole and sorting it then if any differences while they are fresh.

As a side note, a lot of lady golfers get seriously upset if you do a tally at the turn and tell them they had 16 points or whatever. Apparently they think it bad luck to know. Hard to fathom; I know exactly how I stand at all times and couldn't imagine otherwise.

rrpc

First Up wrote: »

I assume everyone does that but it is still advisable (to put it mildly) to check and agree after every hole and sorting it then if any differences while they are fresh.

As a side note, a lot of lady golfers get seriously upset if you do a tally at the turn and tell them they had 16 points or whatever. Apparently they think it bad luck to know. Hard to fathom; I know exactly how I stand at all times and couldn't imagine otherwise.

Sometimes, concentrating on the score can get you fixated on it rather than your game. You then get into a roller coaster of emotions with each good/bad shot and start chasing what can't be caught.