Pacific islands

thebaz

always enjoy watching the Pacific islands, they bring so much to the game , but always come up just short - despite many odds against , losing top players to bigger nations, team admin problems , the population of Samoa , Tonga and Fiji together is around 1 million.
Should they just come together for World cup , and mount a serious challenge to the big 8 ?

Scythica

Should the British Isles just play as the Lions for a better chance of winning?

No

CatFromHue

I have to say I'm not a fan.

They're dirty teams masquerading as "physical".

They're also brainless.

thebaz

Scythica wrote: »

Should the British Isles just play as the Lions for a better chance of winning?

No

thers a massive difference - the population of England alone is over 50 million - the cumulative population of the 3 Pacific islands is only about 1 million

Yeah_Right

CatFromHue wrote: »

I have to say I'm not a fan.

They're dirty teams masquerading as "physical".

They're also brainless.

Wow!!

Care to back that up?

Ceadog

CatFromHue wrote: »

I have to say I'm not a fan.

They're dirty teams masquerading as "physical".

They're also brainless.

Could say the same about the English.

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

always enjoy watching the Pacific islands, they bring so much to the game, but always come up just short - despite many odds against, losing top players to bigger nations, team admin problems, the population of Samoa, Tonga and Fiji together is around 1 million.
Should they just come together for World cup, and mount a serious challenge to the big 8?

No. They don't want it. There has been a Pacific Islands team before but it was got rid of. The sides need more funding and more games against all sides in 6 Nations and especially their neighbours Australia/New Zealand.

CatFromHue wrote: »

I have to say I'm not a fan.

They're dirty teams masquerading as "physical".

They're also brainless.

I don't see them as dirty or brainless. Their ability around set piece etc is poor but their skills are better than anyone elses. Their ability to find and attack space is phenomenal.

CatFromHue

How many cards/citings do the Pacific Island teams get compared to the rest?

Just did a quick look and there's been 16 red cards in all the RWC, 6 went to PI teams.

Fiji got 5 yellow cards in 1 game against Italy and 2 reds and 3 yellows in another game against Japan.

Losty Dublin

CatFromHue wrote: »

How many cards/citings do the Pacific Island teams get compared to the rest?

Just did a quick look and there's been 16 red cards in all the RWC, 6 went to PI teams.

Fiji got 5 yellow cards in 1 game against Italy and 2 reds and 3 yellows in another game against Japan.

There was an article in the IT either today or yesterday about just this topic.

Ceadog

CatFromHue wrote: »

How many cards/citings do the Pacific Island teams get compared to the rest?

Just did a quick look and there's been 16 red cards in all the RWC, 6 went to PI teams.

Fiji got 5 yellow cards in 1 game against Italy and 2 reds and 3 yellows in another game against Japan.

Are France a notoriously dirty and brain dead team? Because they've received more yellows than both Samoa and Fiji, almost as many as both put together. Those Canadians are pure filth, aren't they, always being dirty and getting red carded. Well they must be, because they have as many red cards as Tonga, and as many as Fiji and Samoa put together. But the worst must surely be the South Africans, they've got as many red cards as the Samoans and almost twice as many yellows. Scumbags!

Stats lie. Refs tend to favour Tier 1 teams immeasurably. See today, when Wales should definitely have gotten at least 2 yellows, one on Bradley Davies for very nearly breaking a Fijiian player's neck, and the other for not keeping a single scrum up all game.

While it may be true that there was a measure of indiscipline amongst the PI teams in the amateur era, since the turn of the century they've really turned a corner on discipline. Yes, occasionally the have the odd player see red and do something violent and despicable, but how is that any different to Jamie Cudmore, or Schalk Burger, or Callum Clark? There are hot-headed idiots in every country, and branding all of the PI as undisciplined and rabid rabble shows a massive lack of rugby knowledge and common sense on your part.

matthew8

It's pretty easy to see how filthy the pacific nations can be when you watch them regularly. In 2013 Fiji gave away 4 yellows against Italy in a 9 minute period, all for late hits. That's just not something you see from other rugby nations. And they'd been given 4 in quick succession because the referee issued several warnings. I don't see Tonga enough to call them dirty but Samoa are the same, always with the late hits and then they had the ball squeezing incident against SA in 2013, that went unpenalised but even on what the referee did pick up they received a yellow and a red.

ixus

The lack of discipline can probably be attributed to the lack of a professional structure at home and low expectations. The French weren't exactly angels before or in the early days of professional game.

Every WC you expect more from them. If these nations were playing to the limits of their abilities, the game and average attendances would get a massive boost.

Yeah_Right

Sorry but this is starting to smell of racism. Dirty coconuts with their late hits and cheating ways.

Didn't Ireland have 3 players yellow carded against Italy just a couple of years ago?

The dirtiest players I can think of currently are Hartley, Clarke and Cudmore but they're white.

thebaz

ixus wrote: »

Every WC you expect more from them. If these nations were playing to the limits of their abilities, the game and average attendances would get a massive boost.

Samoa has population about the same size as Galway - they have beaten Wales twice, 2 quarter finals (progressed as far as us) .. had some of there best players declare for New Zealand , not sure how much more you could expect from them .

I love all the islanders bring to the game , against such odds, which was the point of my post

CatFromHue

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Sorry but this is starting to smell of racism. Dirty coconuts with their late hits and cheating ways.

Didn't Ireland have 3 players yellow carded against Italy just a couple of years ago?

The dirtiest players I can think of currently are Hartley, Clarke and Cudmore but they're white.

In RWC03 there were 30 yellow cards and 0 red cards, 8 went to PI teams.
8/30 = 26% of the yellow cards went to 15% of the teams

In RWC07 there were 35 yellow cards and 2 reds, 7 of the yellows and 1 of the reds went to PI teams. 7/35 = 20% of the yellow cards went to 15% of the teams

In RWC11 there were 18 yellows and 2 reds, 4 of the yellows and 1 of the reds went to PI teams. 4/18 = 22% of the yellows went to 15% of the teams.

Then when you factor in that only one PI team (Fiji in 07) have made it out of their group once in these 3 tournaments so there's alot of games (QFs, SFs, Final, 3 and 4th place play off) where PI teams aren't involved so makes the numbers look even worse.

There is a pattern here whether you like it or not, but hey why not just play the racism card instead.

Yeah_Right

CatFromHue wrote: »

In RWC03 there were 30 yellow cards and 0 red cards, 8 went to PI teams.
8/30 = 26% of the yellow cards went to 15% of the teams

In RWC07 there were 35 yellow cards and 2 reds, 7 of the yellows and 1 of the reds went to PI teams. 7/35 = 20% of the yellow cards went to 15% of the teams

In RWC11 there were 18 yellows and 2 reds, 4 of the yellows and 1 of the reds went to PI teams. 4/18 = 22% of the yellows went to 15% of the teams.

Then when you factor in that only one PI team (Fiji in 07) have made it out of their group once in these 3 tournaments so there's alot of games (QFs, SFs, Final, 3 and 4th place play off) where PI teams aren't involved so makes the numbers look even worse.

There is a pattern here whether you like it or not, but hey why not just play the racism card instead.

How many of those cards were for dirty play masquerading as hard hits? Were any for cynical penalties?

Was it evenly distributed across all 3 separate nations or was one worse than the others? Because clearly all British and Irish players are dirty and brainless based on the actions of Lawes, Tualagi, Hartley and Clarke.

Aidan Holland

Have to say I agree with the person who said they were dirty frankly some of there tackles are downright dangerous and the amount of attempted spear tackles on players with the ball and without has been appalling. I do enjoy their expansive play but I wish they would cut out the other stuff

Yeah_Right

thebaz wrote: »

Samoa has population about the same size as Galway - they have beaten Wales twice, 2 quarter finals (progressed as far as us) .. had some of there best players declare for New Zealand , not sure how much more you could expect from them .

I love all the islanders bring to the game , against such odds, which was the point of my post

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that your original post was racist. It was aimed at some of the ignorant posts that followed.

I agree with you. I love what the PI teams bring to world rugby but they need to stay as separate nations. One of the reasons why a combined team wouldn't work is there is actually some serious animosity between the cultures. Anyone who has lived in Auckland or Wellington probably has first-hand stories of conflict between Samoans, Tongans and Fijians.

ArmaniJeanss

thebaz wrote: »

always enjoy watching the Pacific islands, they bring so much to the game , but always come up just short - despite many odds against , losing top players to bigger nations, team admin problems , the population of Samoa , Tonga and Fiji together is around 1 million.
Should they just come together for World cup , and mount a serious challenge to the big 8 ?

Each is about 1200Km apart from the other two so geographically it makes about as much sense as merging the Belgium and Hungary rugby teams.

Out of interest do they share a common heritage, culture or lineage?

Yeah_Right

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Each is about 1200Km apart from the other two so geographically it makes about as much sense as merging the Belgium and Hungary rugby teams.

Out of interest do they share a common heritage, culture or lineage?

Correct.

No. Fijians are Melanesian whereas Samoa and Tonga are Polynesian. There are similarities in language between Samoa and Tonga but they aren't the same. Fijians are closer to Solomon Islanders or Papua New Guineans. Samoans and Tongans are closer to Maoris, Hawaiians and Tahitians. There are cultural similarities across all the islands (as there is across Europe) but they're not the same.

Wait... They're all brainless, dirty thugs on the rugby field. Sorry. I forgot they had that in common.

Ceadog

Yeah_Right wrote: »

How many of those cards were for dirty play masquerading as hard hits? Were any for cynical penalties?

Was it evenly distributed across all 3 separate nations or was one worse than the others? Because clearly all British and Irish players are dirty and brainless based on the actions of Lawes, Tualagi, Hartley and Clarke.

The red in 2007 was for elbowing, but the one in 2011 didn't even warrant a ban as the offence was deemed insignificant.

Fiji didn't get a single card in 2011, as opposed to the filth of England, the US, and Namibia who all got two yellows.

Tonga and Fiji did pick up three yellows in 2007, but so did SA, Argentina, and Italy, and the utter scum of the USA got a jaw dropping 4. Samoa picked up a single yellow, half as many as Ireland.

Now, in 2003, those Tongans were horrific, copping four yellow cards. But you know who was worse? The Frenchies, with five. Samoa, those dirty buggers who are notorious for their high and late tackles according to everyone, only got one yellow. Amazing.

There's no way to find out which yellow cards were for dangerous play and which were for cynical infringement without extensive research, but it's pretty clear, yet again, that stats lie.

Flipper22

CatFromHue wrote: »

In RWC03 there were 30 yellow cards and 0 red cards, 8 went to PI teams.
8/30 = 26% of the yellow cards went to 15% of the teams

In RWC07 there were 35 yellow cards and 2 reds, 7 of the yellows and 1 of the reds went to PI teams. 7/35 = 20% of the yellow cards went to 15% of the teams

In RWC11 there were 18 yellows and 2 reds, 4 of the yellows and 1 of the reds went to PI teams. 4/18 = 22% of the yellows went to 15% of the teams.

Then when you factor in that only one PI team (Fiji in 07) have made it out of their group once in these 3 tournaments so there's alot of games (QFs, SFs, Final, 3 and 4th place play off) where PI teams aren't involved so makes the numbers look even worse.

There is a pattern here whether you like it or not, but hey why not just play the racism card instead.

Those numbers are well within any margin of error.

It's pretty unfair to call a yellow card dirty play unless given for foul play. I don't see any evidence that they produce particularly dirty players to be honest. Can you name any of their players that stand out as being dirty? I can't, but could easily come up with some argies, saffers, italians, french, or english.

I'd agree that they can be brainless, with Fiji in this world cup a perfect example. They've done huge work to bring the set piece up to scratch, but they just don't seem to produce controlling halfbacks of any quality. They rely on their skill and athleticism pulling off low percentage (but at times spectacular) plays, which will be enough to compete with the the top sides but hardly ever to beat them.

Flipper22

Aidan Holland wrote: »

Have to say I agree with the person who said they were dirty frankly some of there tackles are downright dangerous and the amount of attempted spear tackles on players with the ball and without has been appalling. I do enjoy their expansive play but I wish they would cut out the other stuff

:pac::pac:

What in the name of god is an attempted spear tackle. A tackle?

CatFromHue

Yeah_Right wrote: »

How many of those cards were for dirty play masquerading as hard hits? Were any for cynical penalties?

Was it evenly distributed across all 3 separate nations or was one worse than the others? Because clearly all British and Irish players are dirty and brainless based on the actions of Lawes, Tualagi, Hartley and Clarke.

In 2011 2 of the yellows were for tackles, two for cynical play, and the red was for pushing a guy in the face.

In 07 and 03 I don't know, but I do know a pattern when I see one.

You can call me a racist all you want but the numbers don't lie. The PI teams are represented way more than other teams in the RWC disciplinary stats yet they don't play as many games as other nations.

Bridge93

How many dirty yellow cards have they collected at this WC so far? I think both of fiji's have been for collapsing a maul and scrums not dirty play

duckysauce

CatFromHue wrote: »

In 2011 2 of the yellows were for tackles, two for cynical play, and the red was for pushing a guy in the face.

In 07 and 03 I don't know, but I do know a pattern when I see one.

You can call me a racist all you want but the numbers don't lie. The PI teams are represented way more than other teams in the RWC disciplinary stats yet they don't play as many games as other nations.

Well if you saw the dire Reffing of the Welsh match tonight no wonder they get so many cards, Refs look after Tier one teams always did, you could call the Boks dirty scumbags too, but they get away with it though . Your stats are four years old, how are the PIs doing this year on cards ?

Bridge93

Only one game out of 7 so far at this World Cup have any of the 3 island nations conceded more penalties than their opponents (fiji v Australia)

DEFTLEFTHAND

They had a Pacific Islander team about 10 years back who played a few tours north and south, Cook Islanders were also represented on it.

When it comes to major competition like the World Cup I don't think any one of those three unions or their players would be interested in sending one combined team.

RedemptionZ

Huge fan of them in sevens. Fiji are magical to watch at times. I have to say I too am however not a fan of parts of their rugby culture. They always hit high, sometimes legally sometimes illegally, but either way it results in much more injuries and is rarely the best option. I was amazed to see the massive Samoans get consistently boshed by the South Africans, but it was because they'd constantly go in high.

Yeah_Right

CatFromHue wrote: »

In 2011 2 of the yellows were for tackles, two for cynical play, and the red was for pushing a guy in the face.

In 07 and 03 I don't know, but I do know a pattern when I see one.

You can call me a racist all you want but the numbers don't lie. The PI teams are represented way more than other teams in the RWC disciplinary stats yet they don't play as many games as other nations.

In 2015 RWC the dirtiest bit of play has been an eye-gouge by an Argentinian resulting in a 9 week suspension. Therefore clearly Argentina and Uruguay are the dirtiest teams in this World Cup as South Americans have the longest suspension.

CatFromHue

Yeah_Right wrote: »

In 2015 RWC the dirtiest bit of play has been an eye-gouge by an Argentinian resulting in a 9 week suspension. Therefore clearly Argentina and Uruguay are the dirtiest teams in this World Cup as South Americans have the longest suspension.

You're looking at the peaks when you should be looking at the average.

Out of the 83 yellow cards in 3 RWC's 19 went to PI teams. That's 23%, nearly a quarter, to teams that have only played 1 game in the knock outs and play less than the 6N or RC teams.

Out of the 4 reds 2 went to PI teams.

Maybe they're getting better at discipline, I don't know (I hope so), but you can't argue with the numbers above.

Yeah_Right

CatFromHue wrote: »

You're looking at the peaks when you should be looking at the average.

Out of the 83 yellow cards in 3 RWC's 19 went to PI teams. That's 23%, nearly a quarter, to teams that have only played 1 game in the knock outs and play less than the 6N or RC teams.

Out of the 4 reds 2 went to PI teams.

Maybe they're getting better at discipline, I don't know (I hope so), but you can't argue with the numbers above.

Yes you can. Unless you can prove those cards were all for dirty or late tackles. I'll bet that a few of those yellows were for scrum penalties or maul infringements as those were traditional areas of weakness for PI teams. Something they have all worked on and improved greatly over the last 8 years or so.

thebaz

CatFromHue wrote: »

You're looking at the peaks when you should be looking at the average.

Out of the 83 yellow cards in 3 RWC's 19 went to PI teams. That's 23%, nearly a quarter, to teams that have only played 1 game in the knock outs and play less than the 6N or RC teams.

Out of the 4 reds 2 went to PI teams.

Maybe they're getting better at discipline, I don't know (I hope so), but you can't argue with the numbers above.

any games I have watched the islanders play, in any of the World cups , they rarely get favours from the ref - including a French / Fiji games 8 years ago , i think - so I wouldn't read too much into your stats regarding foul play (yes there has been a few dangerous tackles - any worse than South Africa, Argentina foul play ?
I played against a Samoan team , good few years ago , tough as nails on the pitch , but the soundest of guys of the park. So great respect , especially when you consider how the odds are stacked against them , with the likes of game scheduling , and there best players been poached , mainly by NZ , but now Aus, England and now France (as if France and England don't have eneogh players to pick from

RedemptionZ

thebaz wrote: »

any games I have watched the islanders play, in any of the World cups , they rarely get favours from the ref - including a French / Fiji games 8 years ago , i think - so I wouldn't read too much into your stats regarding foul play (yes there has been a few dangerous tackles - any worse than South Africa, Argentina foul play ?
I played against a Samoan team , good few years ago , tough as nails on the pitch , but the soundest of guys of the park. So great respect , especially when you consider how the odds are stacked against them , with the likes of game scheduling , and there best players been poached , mainly by NZ , but now Aus, England and now France (as if France and England don't have eneogh players to pick from

I don't think anyone would say a bad thing about their character off the field, but the rugby culture in the pacific is to hit high and hard. This is a dangerous way to play and though it can give some nice highlights, I've always thought of it to be egotistical rather than strategic. You're going for the big but not guarantee'd hit so that you look good instead of going lower and ensuring your team you'll stop your man.

I've heard from locals that American Samoa have a big problem at underage level of players hitting way too high and concussions being common, though I'd suspect that there's an NFL influence there.

matthew8

Well for Fiji and Samoa these are from 2 years ago.

Fiji:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq1fdqFCI-E

5 yellow cards, 4 for dangerous play. Referee says next dangerous tackle and it's red. I've never seen a team commit so many dangerous tackles that the referee has to give that warning.

Samoa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYmmtJSRE2E

Highlights at 4:30 and 9:35 but other less than clean play put in there.

No 6N team would get up to this amount of foul play, nor would NZ or Australia. Argentina do get up to a fair bit of foul play I don't deny that and SA definitely have a very bad history of it, though recently I think they've become a lot cleaner with Meyer as coach and De Villiers as captain.

feargale

Scythica wrote: »

Should the British Isles just play as the Lions for a better chance of winning?

No

Ah no. We should have an EU team.

CatFromHue

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Yes you can. Unless you can prove those cards were all for dirty or late tackles. I'll bet that a few of those yellows were for scrum penalties or maul infringements as those were traditional areas of weakness for PI teams. Something they have all worked on and improved greatly over the last 8 years or so.

I kinda get the feeling here that this is like what happened in Rotherham, England, where an ethnic minority was committing 90-95% of one particular crime but no one in authority would admit or deal with it as they feared being called a racist. Actually I think one or two did and they were called racists and the crimes continued.

2007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Cb-XFamPA

kicking the ball in a ruck
youtube clock 37min 40
Elbow in a ruck
youtube clock 1hr 28min50sec
high tackle
youtube clock 1hr 33min 20sec

fighting (I can't see what happened here though)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9wmYv5KKHc

youtube clock of 1hr 18min 50 sec

tackling a guy without the ball

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8FyhohkSdU

youtube clock of 1hr 34

swinging arm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BavFK2Wx69Y

youtube clock of 1hr15min10sec

knee in a maul

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqHOpwMnCpU

youtube clock of 48min0sec

tackle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Qnp25RvCA

youtube clock of 1hr8min15sec

Yeah_Right

Are you actually comparing the play of PI rugby teams to a child sex ring?! Wow! Seriously?

total former

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Are you actually comparing the play of PI rugby teams to a child sex ring?! Wow! Seriously?

I think his point is that it's very easy to dismiss criticism of people from different backgrounds simply by shouting RACISM, and thus avoiding any serious examination of the actual merits of the point. Or that people are afraid to raise valid points about people from different backgrounds, for fear that they will be branded a RACIST.

Case in point; those of us who think maybe Jared Payne could have a bit more cutting edge in attack were accused of racism. Repeatedly. (Edit: well, maybe it's xenophobia if the guy is white and speaks English, point is still valid)

Yeah_Right

In response to the examples provided, yes there's some bad play there and it should be punished but I don't think it's right or fair to use them to tarnish 3 countries as dirty masquerading as hard.

In the time I've lived in Ireland I've seen POC kick DK in the head, Ferris spear tackle someone, Payne take out a player in the air, Quinlan eye gouge Cullen, Heaslip knee McCaw in the head, BOD stamp on an Italian and Flannery kick a Frenchman. And that's just off the top of my head. Does that mean I can label all Irish players as dirty? Masquerading as hard men?

I think we've all been involved in games or watched games at various levels where for some reason tempers have frayed, the red mist has descended and every scrum or ruck or maul has resulted in niggle or punches and scrapping. Not because the teams are inherently dirty but it just sometimes happens in rugby.

The PI teams had discipline issues when 20 odd years ago definitely. Someone mentioned they would go for the spectacular big hit rather than the smart tackle and this was true. I don't believe it's the case anymore. They are good, talented professional rugby players now and labelling them as brainless and dirty is just wrong.

Yeah_Right

total former wrote: »

I think his point is that it's very easy to dismiss criticism of people from different backgrounds simply by shouting RACISM, and thus avoiding any serious examination of the actual merits of the point. Or that people are afraid to raise valid points about people from different backgrounds, for fear that they will be branded a RACIST.

Case in point; those of us who think maybe Jared Payne could have a bit more cutting edge in attack were accused of racism. Repeatedly. (Edit: well, maybe it's xenophobia if the guy is white and speaks English, point is still valid)

Yeah I get that but it's a horrible example to use.

And I do think there is some racism behind some of the comments about PI teams. I genuinely believe that.

CatFromHue

Well the first thing you asked was to back up what I said, which I have.

Then you questioned that the cards were for set piece infringements, which I've shown they're not.

All the while implying I'm racist.

I think the Rotherham case is a very good example of what you're doing, you're ignoring the information and name calling the message giver.

I've no doubt Irish players commit fouls but for the information we have available where the teams are competing at the same level in the same tournament it's not the Irish or Celtic teams being over represented in the disciplinary tables.

Flipper22

Yeah_Right wrote: »

In response to the examples provided, yes there's some bad play there and it should be punished but I don't think it's right or fair to use them to tarnish 3 countries as dirty masquerading as hard.

In the time I've lived in Ireland I've seen POC kick DK in the head, Ferris spear tackle someone, Payne take out a player in the air, Quinlan eye gouge Cullen, Heaslip knee McCaw in the head, BOD stamp on an Italian and Flannery kick a Frenchman. And that's just off the top of my head. Does that mean I can label all Irish players as dirty? Masquerading as hard men?

I think we've all been involved in games or watched games at various levels where for some reason tempers have frayed, the red mist has descended and every scrum or ruck or maul has resulted in niggle or punches and scrapping. Not because the teams are inherently dirty but it just sometimes happens in rugby.

The PI teams had discipline issues when 20 odd years ago definitely. Someone mentioned they would go for the spectacular big hit rather than the smart tackle and this was true. I don't believe it's the case anymore. They are good, talented professional rugby players now and labelling them as brainless and dirty is just wrong.

That was never a spear tackle :mad::mad::mad:

hashtag still bitter

KevinK

If none of Samoa, Fiji or Tonga finish in the top 3 of their groups will it mean that at least one of them won't qualify for the 2019 world cup?

I think the 8 qualification spots were given out like this for 2015, which would mean that a max of two of the Pacific Island teams could qualify
2 to Europe
2 to Americas
1 to Asia
1 to Africa
1 to Oceania
1 Repechage

Or is likely that Europe will give up one of its spots?