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Collapsing Trachea and cruciate ligament damage
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29-09-2015 2:14pm#1
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It is common, especially in smaller breeds as the dog gets older.
I know diagnosis is important, but jeez... there's a lot being proposed to be done to your dog in order to reach a diagnosis! I do wonder about vets going to huge lengths to get a definitive diagnosis, when some simple old-style checks will tell you what you want to know... okay, you won't have the pictures to prove it beyond doubt... but I hope you can see what I'm getting at here?! It's not a slight on your vet at all, just a general observation that sometimes, a condition can almost be over-diagnosed, it you see what I mean. These proposed tests ain't cheap!
A very simple but strong indicator that the coughing is caused by a collapsing trachea is to gently squash the front of your dog's throat, just where the trachea comes close to the surface of the body.. around where you'd expect a dog to have an Adam's Apple! If the dog coughs, it's almost certainly collapsing trachea.
My last two small dogs have developed it... one has since passed (from other causes), one is still with us. Surgery is possible but very invasive ( a tube is inserted into the throat to hold it open).
The important things are to use a harness, keep the dog's weight down, try to prevent them from sudden, sharp escalations in oxygen requirement (e.g. from sleep to suddenly racing out the door... my departed dog fainted from time to time in this and similar circumstances... VERY distressing for me... he didn't seem too bothered!), and one thing that I've found via research... chondroitin! Since I started supplementing my wee dog's diet with Luposan, the coughing has subsided remarkably. It supposedly helps the tracheal rings from degenerating any further.. may be it even helps to rebuild them a bit?
One other thing I'd be inclined to do... keep her Kennel Cough vaccinations up to date, as KC can be very hard on dogs with collapsing trachea. I know the KC vaccination doesn't cover all strains, but I'd rather my dog stands a minimal chance of picking KC up all the same.
Hope that all helps.
thanks for all that! I did wonder about the tests myself, especially when we are talking about 1000 for fluoroscopy in a university hospital! It doesn't affect her at all unless she catches a respiratory illness, so for now it is not life affecting but my biggest worry is that it will get worse. Our vet said it is not progressive but other sources seem to contradict this? She is only 6, which is young enough for a Jacker
ps it is interesting you mention luposan as I was looking at that for her joints anyway, will definitely try it now as we will likely be hitting two birds with one stone
Ive seen great reviews about it 0 -
OldNotWIse wrote: »ps it is interesting you mention luposan as I was looking at that for her joints anyway, will definitely try it now as we will likely be hitting two birds with one stone Ive seen great reviews about it
I should be getting commission from zooplus - the amount of people who've gotten Luposan on my recommendation!
Hope you little dog is ok!0 -
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My JRT X had this problem too. He died last year from another issue, but had the trachea problem for about 12 years (he was 17) - sounded horrible, and he got KC a couple of times (even though vaccinated every year for years), thankfully he never fainted (:eek:) and it didnt seem to get any worse as he got older - just something we were all aware of, and only ever used a harness, and tried to keep him from getting too excited/suddenly. I would definately try to keep your dogs weight down (my old boy would put on weight just thinking about food - the pits!) oh and in the winter when the stove was lighting - he was like a magnet to that heat, we used to have to prevent him from getting very overheated as it would cause lots of coughing/honking
Yes I noticed before that she always seemed to flare up in the winter. We always figured it was the central heating drying her airways. She does love lying in front of the fire too! Like yours, she seemed to get KC numerous times despite being vaccinated. I don't think I will leave her in kennels again, which should cut down on the risk. Might look at the pet sitter option instead.
Really praying she doesn't get worse. She's only 6 and so full of life. We nursed our last dog through a horrible progressive, degenerative condition and I really cant do that again!
Sorry that your dog passed too, it's never easy 0 -
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I started her on steroids this morning (had to wait 48 hours for the anti-inflammatories to leave her system). She will be on two a day for 5 days then one a day. Hate giving her so manyy meds, she's not even 7kilo her poor little body
DBB you recommended luposan which I will order today as I got paid Can I ask, which one you would recommend? Having a look on Zooplus and there seems to be pellets and powders, and some have higher concentrations of mussel extract than others?
http://www.zooplus.ie/esearch.htm#q=luposan0 -
Made the mistake of googling "tracheal collapse prognosis" and now I am petrified. Lots of people saying that their dogs had it and died from it, that it gets worse etc I don't understand why our vet said it wasn't progressive or life limiting
Panicking...0 -
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Don't panic ONW... I can almost guarantee you that the dogs you read about had some other factor that actually caused a deterioration in health... Not the collapsing trachea itself.
I use Luposan pellets... Better value I think, and more palatable. YuMove is another option. I actually have both here!
ok thanks Trying to be objective about it. We don't even have a definitive diagnosis. And she's always had "the honks" when she gets excited and it hasn't progressed. It was made worse this time because of the KC. Going to change the harness, give the luposan and am also thinking about a change in diet. Some people have recommended a soft food diet, and I am wondering do you have any experience or recommendations on this? I believe the BARF diet still has two schools of thought surrounding it? 0 -
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OldNotWIse wrote: »Her howl returned a little this morning, I was so happy I could have cried. Miss her morning "singing".
It's funny how these little things become so important when they're gone
It's weird though, my own little lady here "lost" her bark a couple of days ago, her voice went husky when she barked. She's back to normal now. I wonder was this related to the collpasing trachea? Are they more prone to huskiness when they pick up a little infection? Hmmm... will have to bounce it off the vet... this is the first time I've heard this husky bark, and your little one was the same, I take it?0 -
It's funny how these little things become so important when they're gone
It's weird though, my own little lady here "lost" her bark a couple of days ago, her voice went husky when she barked. She's back to normal now. I wonder was this related to the collpasing trachea? Are they more prone to huskiness when they pick up a little infection? Hmmm... will have to bounce it off the vet... this is the first time I've heard this husky bark, and your little one was the same, I take it?
Yes, it was actually the first thing I noticed. She sounded like she'd been on the whiskey and fags while she was in the kennels.
I brought her to the vet and they diagnosed an upper respiratory infection. When I called back a few days later due to lack of improvement, the vet did say that those with a collapsing trachea tend to recover less quickly from those kinds of illnesses. I suppose if there is already a weakness there, it makes sense.
She is still not back to normal but slowly improving.0 -
Bark is much stronger now and howling almost back to normal
Luposan and salmon oil arrived yesterday. I was pleasantly surprised that she ate the tablet as is? Must be the mussel extract in it. It says one tablet per 10kilo, but she is only 7kilo so will be giving her 3/4's of one I guess. Started her with a half for now. Gave her a teaspoon of the salmon oil on her dried food this morning and she cleared the lot.0 -
All was going so well but this morning, she seemed to have taken a step backwards. Barking a little hoarse and making a few grunty noises. Have booked her in for another checkup when I finish work. We did have the radiator on last night, and the door closed and I am wondering if this has aggravated her? I'll sleep in the cold if I have too! 0
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I used to find that during the winter Pep used to cough, honk and 'choke' more. Definately when the heating was on for the first few weeks, and most definately when the stove was lighting - he used to ROAST himself practically under it. We turned off the radiators in the kitchen/family room permanently - where he used to sleep overnight. We prevented him from getting too close to the stove, and when he overheaded too much we would send him outdoors for a cool down. We stopped using kennels, never brought him to town/where other dogs were, actually stopped all vaccinations (when he was getting old). Sometimes I would give him a spoon of honey
Dont be too worried - I think the symptoms are worse than the problem - Pep used to cough and hack like he was going to choke, then run off about his business 2 seconds later. Certainly the cough/hack/honk never seemed to bother him in the least. Listening to it was worse for us. I can honestly say that it didnt seem to bother him at all. Even when he had kennel cough (more than once), the noise was the only symptom - he was in good form. (Our other dogs didnt get Kennel Cough from him funnily)
Before he was diagnosed, we believed that the reason for his coughing/hacking was because he always pulled so hard on the leash (before the days of harness choices and the internet!) that he had damaged his trachea.
So what Im trying to say here is that his cough/choke was the worst part. It never effected him at all. He went on to live a very happy contented and healthy life, until cancer in his liver/kidneys at age 17. (We never had a fainting episode, so hopefully your dog will be ok/manageable/not too impacted too)0 -
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I used to find that during the winter Pep used to cough, honk and 'choke' more. Definately when the heating was on for the first few weeks, and most definately when the stove was lighting - he used to ROAST himself practically under it. We turned off the radiators in the kitchen/family room permanently - where he used to sleep overnight. We prevented him from getting too close to the stove, and when he overheaded too much we would send him outdoors for a cool down. We stopped using kennels, never brought him to town/where other dogs were, actually stopped all vaccinations (when he was getting old). Sometimes I would give him a spoon of honey
Dont be too worried - I think the symptoms are worse than the problem - Pep used to cough and hack like he was going to choke, then run off about his business 2 seconds later. Certainly the cough/hack/honk never seemed to bother him in the least. Listening to it was worse for us. I can honestly say that it didnt seem to bother him at all. Even when he had kennel cough (more than once), the noise was the only symptom - he was in good form. (Our other dogs didnt get Kennel Cough from him funnily)
Before he was diagnosed, we believed that the reason for his coughing/hacking was because he always pulled so hard on the leash (before the days of harness choices and the internet!) that he had damaged his trachea.
So what Im trying to say here is that his cough/choke was the worst part. It never effected him at all. He went on to live a very happy contented and healthy life, until cancer in his liver/kidneys at age 17. (We never had a fainting episode, so hopefully your dog will be ok/manageable/not too impacted too)
Thank you so much for telling your story, and sorry that your little fella had to leave you
I find that in general, ours seems to be the same. In the sense that, she is fine otherwise. Running around, great appetite etc. When I had her in the vets last time she had no temperature or anything. I guess I'll have to forfeit the heat in my room :P Can I ask if you noticed yours getting any worse over the years or was it more just a flare up now and again? I am seriously considering not leaving her in kennels again. It's just not worth it if they are going to pick up KC and be weeks recovering. I'm looking into the pet sitter option. Not to mention the risk of KC, the last one we left her in (I can't name it on here obviously) was terrible. Despite advertising wonderful things like heating/air con/cctv etc, they did so many things wrong. Texted me daily "updates" with the wrong name and gender (and clearly generic messages too) as well as more serious things like feeding her canned food despite me leaving in special diet food for her). She was also walked with a collar despite instructions to be walked with her harness - something I feel may have caused damage to her trachea. When I called them on it, they got quite irate and in their temper, left the harness on her for an entire week - she had marks on her skin from it! 0 -
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Finding a good kennel is the issue isnt it. I currently have my cat in a cattery while we are abroad for over a month - the woman who owns it keeps it so beautifully, she emails me photos of my cat, shes taken my cat to the vet twice becuase of a cut on her toe (had it when I brought her), so I am very happy and relieved that my lovely little cat is being cared for so well. We have our dog with us. I dont think one can relax and enjoy a holiday not knowing if one's beloved pet isnt being cared for. We found someone to come to the house twice/day to walk and feed the dogs in our house. This was the best solution for us at that time. I cant leave our only remaining dog at home on his own with that dog-sitter visiting, hence he had to come too. I dont understand why there are not more quality kennels.
Anyway, no my dog didnt deteriorate over the years. In fact it got easier I think! He was on a harness for many years, never on a leash. He lost a bit of weight (key?). He was on home cooked food - not dry dog food. No heat where he slept. Washed his bedding very regularly. Coconut oil in his food. Bionic Biotic supplement & Glucosamine. I dont know if any/all of these contributed to his coughing/honking, but it was less noticable as he aged...
Yes, we had a lovely kennel for ours in a neighbours. They only took small dogs and a maximum of six at a time. Like that I would receive text updates and I knew they were genuine because they were realistic, like "Hi ONW, your little one is being a bit of a brat today with the others, wont share her toys. Have her in with me now watching Netflix and she has her nose pressed up to the side of the laptop where the warm air comes out" rather than the last kennel we left her in sent me one saying, "she is settling in beautifully and is so friendly and happy with everyone" - er...not my dog
I started her on the luposan a few days ago, and the salmon oil, which she loves. As luck would have it, she did herself an injury on Friday when she was chasing the ball. Took her to vet and they said its probably cruciate She had this problem before, but I cant remember if it was the same leg or the other one. I really hope its not the "good" one.
Got anti-inflammatories and if no better after 10 days we'll be x-raying. Nightmare trying to keep her quiet and from jumping. The vet seemed confident that if it is the cruciate (and if it is a full tear) that surgery would be a success. She said it's less invasive and more successful in small dogs because they fix the new "ligament" onto the outside of the bone, and because she is relatively young and slim she should recover well. Obviously arthritis will set in anywhere there was surgery, but what is the alternative?
Anyone any experience with the cruciate?
Edit: I believe the procedure she referred to was "extracapsular repair".0 -
My dog is currently recovering from a cruciate ligament replacement
He tore it (severed!) when racing after his ball - feel so bloody stupid because he is compulsive about chasing balls and sticks, and used to come in from it lifting his leg sometimes - so we cut down but should have STOPPED!
Anyway, its about 5 weeks since the op. They replaced the ligament - its 'wrapped' outside the joint holding the joint in place. The stitches were super - a fold with the stitches "inside" - healed super fast, but most importantly, no cone!5 mins of exercise on leash since then. Keeping him restricted but not in a crate. This week he is now starting to use his leg at last. I must phone the vet today (we are in UK so are missing our check up back in Ireland) to see what he says is next step in the rehab.
He is not a nutty dog (except when it comes to chasing balls/sticks!) so the experience is not so bad as I feared. He was on pain killers and anti inflammatories for 2 or 3 weeks after the op. The vet said that basically, the joint where the cruciate was, will now scar over, and 'cushion' the joint - the new synthetic ligament will become obsolete in time.
Yes, arthritis is an issue in the future maybe. Will worry about that when the time comes. I must get him on salmon oil/glucosamine when we get back to Ireland
Um, I know nothing but why would they wait 10 days to xray - if the cruciate is damaged/torn, they can tell before then surely - why wait for 10 days if it needs surgery?
And yes, why dont kennel/boarding people understand that owners only want the truth about how their dog is doing in their care... I KNOW my dogs HATED kennels, even the very good one we used for years and trusted, but they are safe and cared for and walked and fed - that's all we can do isnt it -
getting taken care of like your old place is icing on the cake. Maybe home boarding rather than a kennel is the way to go? Could you find someone who would take your dog into their home for payment - although would you trust them to keep the dog safe is the issue... tricky.
I am currently in the UK for a month. Dog came too. We are going to France for a few days - had thought that husbands family nearby would take the dog - but now Im having 2nd thoughts - they have never had a pet! - Im looking at kennels in the area to see if that might be better 
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My dog is currently recovering from a cruciate ligament replacement
He tore it (severed!) when racing after his ball - feel so bloody stupid because he is compulsive about chasing balls and sticks, and used to come in from it lifting his leg sometimes - so we cut down but should have STOPPED!
Anyway, its about 5 weeks since the op. They replaced the ligament - its 'wrapped' outside the joint holding the joint in place. The stitches were super - a fold with the stitches "inside" - healed super fast, but most importantly, no cone!5 mins of exercise on leash since then. Keeping him restricted but not in a crate. This week he is now starting to use his leg at last. I must phone the vet today (we are in UK so are missing our check up back in Ireland) to see what he says is next step in the rehab.
He is not a nutty dog (except when it comes to chasing balls/sticks!) so the experience is not so bad as I feared. He was on pain killers and anti inflammatories for 2 or 3 weeks after the op. The vet said that basically, the joint where the cruciate was, will now scar over, and 'cushion' the joint - the new synthetic ligament will become obsolete in time.
Yes, arthritis is an issue in the future maybe. Will worry about that when the time comes. I must get him on salmon oil/glucosamine when we get back to Ireland
Um, I know nothing but why would they wait 10 days to xray - if the cruciate is damaged/torn, they can tell before then surely - why wait for 10 days if it needs surgery?
And yes, why dont kennel/boarding people understand that owners only want the truth about how their dog is doing in their care... I KNOW my dogs HATED kennels, even the very good one we used for years and trusted, but they are safe and cared for and walked and fed - that's all we can do isnt it -
getting taken care of like your old place is icing on the cake. Maybe home boarding rather than a kennel is the way to go? Could you find someone who would take your dog into their home for payment - although would you trust them to keep the dog safe is the issue... tricky.
I am currently in the UK for a month. Dog came too. We are going to France for a few days - had thought that husbands family nearby would take the dog - but now Im having 2nd thoughts - they have never had a pet! - Im looking at kennels in the area to see if that might be better
So we should get her in for the surgery straight away? The vet was kind of saying it might clear up if not a complete tear.
I'm not concerned about arthritis. For me it is the lesser evil than lameness and the risk of re-tearing, and like you said, there are many things to help with that.
Do you mind me asking how much the surgery was?0 -
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As I said, I know nothing, but was just wondering why the vet would wait 10 days to xray. Will send you a PM re the cost, so that Im breaking any forum rules
ok thanks I'm a little confused why we are waiting too. I got the impression they were saying if not a full tear that it will improve in the ten days? Not sure 0 -
I came here to see if anyone was having issues with their dog having a weird throat clearing/coughing type thing and now am a bit worried.
She has had her kennel cough as she does every year but has this throat clearing thing practically consistently for a couple of months now.
Rang the vet(used to be a great practice but changed surgeon about a year ago and the new vet is less interested in "domestic pets" as its a country/very rural practice.
Said its not an emergency so bring her in next week.
She is getting on a wee bit(12 and a husky)and just doesn't "look" herself(hate to sound like a crazy dog person)but she is looking at me differently
Out of sorts, if you will.
She is also incontinent (she got pyometra when she was about 9 months old). She is on daily meds for it.
Could this be something?
Worried about the old gal
Edit. Do dogs distance themselves from owners when they know they are dying , like cats do?0 -
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I came here to see if anyone was having issues with their dog having a weird throat clearing/coughing type thing and now am a bit worried.
She has had her kennel cough as she does every year but has this throat clearing thing practically consistently for a couple of months now.
Rang the vet(used to be a great practice but changed surgeon about a year ago and the new vet is less interested in "domestic pets" as its a country/very rural practice.
Said its not an emergency so bring her in next week.
She is getting on a wee bit(12 and a husky)and just doesn't "look" herself(hate to sound like a crazy dog person)but she is looking at me differently
Out of sorts, if you will.
She is also incontinent (she got pyometra when she was about 9 months old). She is on daily meds for it.
Could this be something?
Worried about the old gal
Edit. Do dogs distance themselves from owners when they know they are dying , like cats do?
Dogs can appear to distance themselves from their owners when they are feeling unwell or in pain. At 12 their could be many things going on including arthritis. If you dont feel your vet is too interested you should think about changing, nothing worse than a flippant vet. Theres a few ailments that can cause coughing , including heart problems so you really need to get her a good thorough check up with the vet. I've a 13 year old dog whos suddenly starting to show his age, he's a bit of arthritis and now his eyesight is poor, but he's very happy. Getting the right treatment for their age related problems keeps them comfortable and happy. Best of luck.0 -
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I came here to see if anyone was having issues with their dog having a weird throat clearing/coughing type thing and now am a bit worried.
She has had her kennel cough as she does every year but has this throat clearing thing practically consistently for a couple of months now.
Rang the vet(used to be a great practice but changed surgeon about a year ago and the new vet is less interested in "domestic pets" as its a country/very rural practice.
Said its not an emergency so bring her in next week.
She is getting on a wee bit(12 and a husky)and just doesn't "look" herself(hate to sound like a crazy dog person)but she is looking at me differently
Out of sorts, if you will.
She is also incontinent (she got pyometra when she was about 9 months old). She is on daily meds for it.
Could this be something?
Worried about the old gal
Edit. Do dogs distance themselves from owners when they know they are dying , like cats do?
Ive had dogs, when feeling ill or unwell or sore, distance them from us humans - only because they dont want to be picked up or fussed over maybe, so dont worry until you get her checked. BUT I would definately find yourself a vet who you can have confidence in. Large animal vets are often not great with domestic pets - or rather with their emotionally invested owners!
Your dog is getting on now, better to have her checked - ask around for a recommendation for a small animal vet. If you post on here what your area is, you will get recommendations from Boardsies
The kennel cough vaccine does not prevent all coughs - its like the flu vaccine, it only protects from a couple of strains. My dogs were always vaccinated for kennel cough annually, but one of them got kennel cough at least twice. After that we stopped all vaccinations - he was pretty much immune at that stage after years of shots. I only vaccinatet now if I have to use a kennel.0 -
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Just spoke to vet. They are quoting 100 for x-rays and 500 for surgery (including follow up visits). Don't mind so much about the price but I was concerned when she said there would be no cast/brace. How will the knee heal? I don't want to put her through surgery only for her to rupture it again before healing. She started talking about crating and the doubts started creeping in 0
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OldNotWIse wrote: »Waiting to hear back from Baldoyle vet re cost and will be booking in asap. Totally frustrated at this point with lack of support from family and OH. Can't help out with costs, fair enough. But now there are comments like, "can you not just leave her for a week and see if she improves?" and I try explaining that if it is the cruciate and we leave it for a week, she is doing more damage and reducing the chance of successful rehab. They nod as if they understand but then say something like, "oh right, well she seems to be in good form" wtf? Then there was the stunned silence and the looks when I mentioned about a crate (because I simply do not trust them to follow post op care as strictly as they should, and a guy in work has a large one he used for his golden retriever that I can borrow). They're all telling me it's cruel etc. Well, of course it's not pleasant...but I'm not doing it to be cruel. I'm thinking about her future (and seem to be the only one doing that). I don't want her to wind up lame. As it is, the cruciate went on the other leg two years ago and the (then) sh*t vet that we had recommended conservative therapy and no surgery, and she hops on that one occasionally.
:mad::mad:
I hear ya! My family were on-board - thank god because I wouldn't have been able to do it myself!!!! BUT the comments I got from people - "why bother it's not like he was going to DIE from it?!" (the person who said that is actually dead now themselves!) Like I was cruelly putting him through unnecessary surgery - he would have had no quality of life and have been PTS before now if he didn't have the operations! 0 -
I hear ya! My family were on-board - thank god because I wouldn't have been able to do it myself!!!! BUT the comments I got from people - "why bother it's not like he was going to DIE from it?!" (the person who said that is actually dead now themselves!) Like I was cruelly putting him through unnecessary surgery - he would have had no quality of life and have been PTS before now if he didn't have the operations!
I know, and it's hard enough trying to do the best for them and also the worry about anaesthetic and all that, and having the dog itself looking at you with big feckin cow eyes, asking what she has done wrong and why you are now walking the other dog without her and all that. The guilt, the stress, the worry.... We don't need the extra hassle of making sure the other adults in the house are on board, or trying to convince them that this is the right thing. My dog is only 6 and she (please God) has a lot more years in her. I want to make those quality years and if that means she must be limited in her full enjoyment of life for a number of weeks, to me it's an investment.
I really do worry about the anaesthetic though... 0 -
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Cost for extracapsular repair is €850 (including x-ray and follow up consultations). Our own vet is quoting €500, but I don't want to cut corners if this is a better vet He also said something which worried me. he asked which procedure I had in mind and I said that afaik the extracapsular repair is the favoured procedure with small dogs but does it have less success long term? He said it would depend on xray and whether her tibia plateau angle is higher than normal. If it is, we would be better going for TPLO or TTA. Now, I no more know what the feckin tibia plateaus angle is than the man on the street, although it sounds very exotic.
Totally confused now.
ps wouldn't give a price on the other procedures....0 -
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