Should falsely playing the race card be a hate crime?

Boring username

An abusive passenger delayed nine trains while he hurled insults at an inspector who confronted him for travelling without a ticket.
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Kelvin Boye (30) - a data security analyst - held up mainline rail services for more than four hours as he falsely accused the inspector of asking for his ticket "because I am black".

An abusive passenger delayed nine trains while he hurled insults at an inspector who confronted him for travelling without a ticket.
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Kelvin Boye (30) - a data security analyst - held up mainline rail services for more than four hours as he falsely accused the inspector of asking for his ticket "because I am black".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/nine-trains-delayed-for-four-hours-by-one-abusive-passenger-with-no-ticket-31563752.html


As we all know, there is a drive to stamp out racism and xenophobia in Irish society. In fact, you could argue that simply being accused of racism is almost certainly the end of your career in most cases, and it is probably the most frenzied social media topic in todays society.

So with that in mind, considering the damage that can be done by crying racism, should there not be an equally severe punishment for those who falsely accuse someone of being racist? After all, they are deliberately trying to destroy a persons reputation by using the most inflammatory and provocative accusation of the 21st century.

I'm not talking about cases where a statement might not be proved for lack of evidence, or ambiguity-I'm talking about someone clearly trying ruin another individual because they were too lazy to buy a train ticket.

This is in itself an act of hatred, and should be a criminal offence. Your thoughts please.

whatismyname

Yes.

whiskeyman

Boring username wrote: »

Your thoughts please.

sure

One eyed Jack

Boring username wrote: »

After all, they are deliberately trying to destroy a persons reputation by using the most inflammatory and provocative accusation of the 21st century.

That's a tad dramatic?

Boring username wrote: »

This is in itself an act of hatred, and should be a criminal offence. Your thoughts please.

More drama.

Should've handled it simply and professionally and in the words of one of my work colleagues at the time, when questioned with the "Is it cos I is bleck?" nonsense -

"I don't care if you're purple with blue spots, you still don't get to leave before everyone else"...

I'd have just told him to piss off, myself.

mikeym

Hell Yes.

Brian from Bray

The cheek of him. Next time I'm in Somalia I'm going to pull the exact same stunt and see how they like it.

moc moc a moc

It's a delicate area. On the one hand, you don't want scumbags getting away with bad behaviour just because they happen to be a member of a minority group. On the other, you don't want genuine victims of discrimination to feel they can't call someone on a real act of racism.

All I know is my gut says 'maybe'.

Being called names by someone trying to get out of a sticky situation isn't a hate crime quite on the scale of the abuses of the pre-civil rights era in Alabama.

Being called a racist by someone in that context doesn't ruin a persons reputation. It's so clearly a ruse to deflect attention that its on a par with the mugger I saw screaming police brutality when he was chased and taken down after snatching a handbag.

No one thought the Constable was doing a Rodney King, and no one thinks the ticket inspector is a KKK member. Hyperbole doesn't cancel itself out if it's thrown around in both directions.

Potatoeman

moc moc a moc wrote: »

It's a delicate area. On the one hand, you don't want scumbags getting away with bad behaviour just because they happen to be a member of a minority group. On the other, you don't want genuine victims of discrimination to feel they can't call someone on a real act of racism.

All I know is my gut says 'maybe'.

The burden of proof is always on the accuser.

Martial9

Mr Daly said he called staff "dimwits" and remarked that "no wonder the English had taken us over".

lol.

Martial9

Candie wrote: »

Being called names by someone trying to get out of a sticky situation isn't a hate crime quite on the scale of the abuses of the pre-civil rights era in Alabama.

Being called a racist by someone in that context doesn't ruin a persons reputation. It's so clearly a ruse to deflect attention that its on a par with the mugger I saw screaming police brutality when he was chased and taken down after snatching a handbag.

No one thought the Constable was doing a Rodney King, and no one thinks the ticket inspector is a KKK member. Hyperbole doesn't cancel itself out if it's thrown around in both directions.

Alabama, constables, the KKK and Rodney King - what do any of them have to do with Ireland?

starling

Boring username wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/nine-trains-delayed-for-four-hours-by-one-abusive-passenger-with-no-ticket-31563752.html


As we all know, there is a drive to stamp out racism and xenophobia in Irish society. In fact, you could argue that simply being accused of racism is almost certainly the end of your career in most cases, and it is probably the most frenzied social media topic in todays society.

So with that in mind, considering the damage that can be done by crying racism, should there not be an equally severe punishment for those who falsely accuse someone of being racist? After all, they are deliberately trying to destroy a persons reputation by using the most inflammatory and provocative accusation of the 21st century.

I'm not talking about cases where a statement might not be proved for lack of evidence, or ambiguity-I'm talking about someone clearly trying ruin another individual because they were too lazy to buy a train ticket.

This is in itself an act of hatred, and should be a criminal offence. Your thoughts please.

Really, you think being called a racist is that scary? I'd wager that being labelled a paedophile is probably way scarier. That can end up being fatal, I don't remember hearing about anyone being beaten up by an angry mob for being racist!

I don't really unðerstand why you care about this so much. The example in the article doesn't really seem like such a big deal to me So one guy acted like a selfish twät on a train....that happens, some people are just asshats.
Apart from holding up all the other passengers, how did the accusation of racism affect the people involved? Given that yer man is clearly not right in the head, how seriously was anyone going to take it?

One eyed Jack

Martial9 wrote: »

Alabama, constables, the KKK and Rodney King - what do any of them have to do with Ireland?

Absolutely nothing, just like the incident in the opening post, has nothing to do with racism. It's clear that ticket dodgers come in all shapes, colours, sizes and genders, and the ticket inspector was simply doing his job. It would have been remiss of the ticket inspector if he hadn't done his job, for any reason.

starling

Martial9 wrote: »

Alabama, constables, the KKK and Rodney King - what do any of them have to do with Ireland?

She's just using them as symbols of real racism, like if the staff had dragged Boyle off the train and beaten him that would essentially be "doing a Rodney King" the same way that if I shave my head or flash my minge you could call it "doing a Britney" for short. So what if those are American examples.

Martial9

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Absolutely nothing, just like the incident in the opening post, has nothing to do with racism. It's clear that ticket dodgers come in all shapes, colours, sizes and genders, and the ticket inspector was simply doing his job. It would have been remiss of the ticket inspector if he hadn't done his job, for any reason.

Being called a racist in front of a packed train - 30 schoolkids - and your fellow employees could be extremely serious indeed. If Boye did not further freak out and instead calmly stuck to his guns, then Iarnród Éireann could well have suspended the employee pending an investigation.

Mud sticks. The employee is just lucky Boye completely lost his cool and undermined any credibility that he had.

Whitewinged

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Absolutely nothing, just like the incident in the opening post, has nothing to do with racism. It's clear that ticket dodgers come in all shapes, colours, sizes and genders, and the ticket inspector was simply doing his job. It would have been remiss of the ticket inspector if he hadn't done his job, for any reason.

The real problem is, that they have made it way too hard to ticket dodge these days. Only joking

starling

Martial9 wrote: »

Being called a racist in front of a packed train - 30 schoolkids - and your fellow employees could be extremely serious indeed. If Boye did not further freak out and instead calmly stuck to his guns, then Iarnród Éireann could well have suspended the employee pending an investigation.

Mud sticks. The employee is just lucky Boye completely lost his cool and undermined any credibility that he had.

I really think you're overstating the seriousness of it. Had there been an investigation the circumstances would have been taken into account - most importantly the fact that Boyle was clearly in the wrong and looking to divert attention from it - and the witnesses could confirm that the staff member didn't treat Boyle any differently than he would have treated a white person who'd done the same thing. It's not like yer man was going to end up getting his house tagged and fireworks thrun in his letterbox.

starling

Brian from Bray wrote: »

The cheek of him. Next time I'm in Somalia I'm going to pull the exact same stunt and see how they like it.

I think that sounds like a wise decision, good idea! Let us know how you get on.

Martial9

starling wrote: »

I really think you're overstating the seriousness of it.

I am really not. Even if the odds are that they employee is 99.99% innocent of all accusations, protocol and procedure has to be followed. It would not be a nice experience and would be on the employees file for future reference.

To be accused of racism as an employee of a state body is very serious. Luckily, the man in question completely went off the deep end and so did his credibility.

Capt'n Midnight

Brian from Bray wrote: »

The cheek of him. Next time I'm in Somalia I'm going to pull the exact same stunt and see how they like it.

I'd love to see you try.














The British pulled up the railway tracks back in 1941.

PARlance

I wouldn't worry about the Rail industry having a underlying issue with racism... it was built on whistle blowing.

Choo choo

Brian from Bray

starling wrote: »

I think that sounds like a wise decision, good idea! Let us know how you get on.

Will do. I might bring home a pirate and send him up to you.

gormdubhgorm

starling

Brian from Bray wrote: »

Will do. I might bring home a pirate and send him up to you.

Make sure he's got a thick veiny black cock or else you and I will be having words!

LDN_Irish

Martial9 wrote: »

I am really not. Even if the odds are that they employee is 99.99% innocent of all accusations, protocol and procedure has to be followed. It would not be a nice experience and would be on the employees file for future reference.

To be accused of racism as an employee of a state body is very serious. Luckily, the man in question completely went off the deep end and so did his credibility.

If your first paragraph was true, then the explanation of why the falsely accused faced no consequence wouldn't have been enough to keep him in the clear. Because Boye going off the deep end could have been attributed to being on the receiving end of racism. What harmed his credibility wasn't his reaction, it was having no ticket and being subject to the same response as anyone without a ticket would have been.

You're definitely overstating the case like a previous poster said.

Boring username wrote: »

In fact, you could argue that simply being accused of racism is almost certainly the end of your career in most cases [snip, context not removed]

I'm sorry but you really couldn't argue this without looking silly. A mere accusation (particularly one like in the OP) wouldn't end your career in even a minority of cases.

Birneybau

Doesn't matter what colour you are, a Cnut is a Cnut. He should be arrested for all the sh!t he caused.

Azalea

I don't know if this incident could be construed as a hate crime, as people wouldn't have taken him seriously. Depends on context.
Think all can agree he was being a complete arsehole though.

RDM_83 again

If your going to place a higher negative value on racial motivated crime or abuse as an offense comparitive to crimes where race is not a factor then IMO there is an argument for the OP's idea.
Personally I think crime is crime and abuse is abuse so I would be against both ideas.

RDM_83 again

..

Overheal

I think calling that a hate crime is ****ing stupid.

What it is, is wasting a hella lot of time. I'm sure its already against existing laws, be a lawyer and look them up.

Every time theres a news story someone always calls for new laws, without realizing there are hundreds, thousands of statutes, some of which probably are already in place that probably cover the thing you want to be covered, just take a stab at it.

SeanW

Boring username wrote: »

I'm not talking about cases where a statement might not be proved for lack of evidence, or ambiguity-I'm talking about someone clearly trying ruin another individual because they were too lazy to buy a train ticket.

This is in itself an act of hatred, and should be a criminal offence. Your thoughts please.

No. Free speech and all that. But I do think a false accusation of racism or sexism should be actionable - like Tim Hunt whose reputation and career were destroyed because he was maliciously quoted out of context.

As to this fare dodger, same rules. If the ticket inspector suffers any reputational damage, he/she should have legal redress IMHO.

seamus

SeanW wrote: »

No. Free speech and all that. But I do think a false accusation of racism or sexism should be actionable - like Tim Hunt whose reputation and career were destroyed because he was maliciously quoted out of context.

As to this fare dodger, same rules. If the ticket inspector suffers any reputational damage, he/she should have legal redress IMHO.

He does. It's called defamation.

Perhaps we should adopt some definition of criminal defamation that covers incidents like this, so that recklessly hurling accusations and insults doesn't require the person to take a costly civil case against someone who hasn't the means to pay compensation anyway.

In this case, the main problem is clearly the delay that this guy's abuse tactics cause. Clearly he never pays for the train and when confronted tries to bully his way out of it. Since it's never guaranteed that a Garda will be available at the next station, perhaps IE should be given bye-laws with the power to detain an unruly passenger in a holding room on the train until they can be handed over to Gardai at a station. Stick two specifically trained security guards on the train who can escort/cuff the person as necessary to protect staff and passengers.

allibastor

Candie wrote: »

Being called names by someone trying to get out of a sticky situation isn't a hate crime quite on the scale of the abuses of the pre-civil rights era in Alabama.

Being called a racist by someone in that context doesn't ruin a persons reputation. It's so clearly a ruse to deflect attention that its on a par with the mugger I saw screaming police brutality when he was chased and taken down after snatching a handbag.

No one thought the Constable was doing a Rodney King, and no one thinks the ticket inspector is a KKK member. Hyperbole doesn't cancel itself out if it's thrown around in both directions.

Problem is that some WILL think he is a racist, no matter what happens.

Same as someone being accused or rape, once your name and that crime get out there, it is very hard to re-claim it.

People tend to read the first headline, then not read the follow up.

SeanW

seamus wrote: »

He does. It's called defamation.

Perhaps we should adopt some definition of criminal defamation that covers incidents like this, so that recklessly hurling accusations and insults doesn't require the person to take a costly civil case against someone who hasn't the means to pay compensation anyway.

Perhaps, it's just that given the Tim Hunt case, I just don't think laws against defamation are strong enough, and that the extreme power of words like "sexist" and "racist" are not recognised. I generally wouldn't call it a hate crime though, though in some cases if the intention is to destroy someone with intentional falsehoods, a motivation of hatred would be reasonably easy to infer.

allibastor wrote: »

Problem is that some WILL think he is a racist, no matter what happens.

Same as someone being accused or rape, once your name and that crime get out there, it is very hard to re-claim it.

People tend to read the first headline, then not read the follow up.

Yep. "No smoke without fire." The problem is that it is true as often as it is false.

Demonique

Is Boye an Irish name? Because some of the threats 'I'll f**king drop ya' sound pretty Irish, sounds like he has one Irish parent



Anyway, he was an arse and should be arrested and charged with obstructing the train service

1hnr79jr65

There are 2 sides to every story and its interesting how most folks here are slating the guy when only 1 side of the story has been told.

Reading the article a few times there are things which don't add up logically, so looking at this from a third person perspective I've noticed the following:

1. First thing is it is alleged this guy had no ticket, this is a commuter town service, did he have a leap card, ergo no ticket required ? If so why was this not logged in report ?

2. "Boye was taken off the train" did this actually happen ? Do ticket inspectors have this kind of power or does it constitute assault ?

3. "Nine trains delayed for four hours by one abusive passenger." If a passenger managed to hold up 9 trains......9 trains for over 4 HOURS.....why was this not in the news back then ? Why weren't the boys in blue called within the first 10 minutes if this guys was so threatening and abusive ? Seems very strange to me that this claim was made with no proof to back it up, hell there i no record of this on Irish Rail twitter feed or elsewhere !!!

4. "The court heard there were 30 children on a school trip and Boye just wouldn't get off" the train." What school was this ? Where are their witness statements to corroborate the claims made against the passenger ? Why was there no uproar in local or national news about an affect school trip due to abusive passenger (fear and all that) ???

It seem to me there are a lot more than minor discrepancies with this story, clearly things don't add up in relation to the events and i would have to seriously question the racial remarks based on the current view that is given.

I would like to see the CCTV from the train and those stations on the day to get a better idea of what went on and in the age of smart phones and social media how come at such peak times there were no phone videos of these alleged incidents posted on facebook, twitter, whatsapp, youtube and so on ???

I will let you draw your own conclusions folks.

Azalea

I just can't see how he was singled out because he was black, rather than not having a ticket. I'm not sure if there is racism on this thread? The one about Somalia was iffy all right (is the guy even from Somalia?) but other than that, people seem to be arguing just that he was acting the arse, something not exclusive to any race.

Sour Lemonz

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

There are 2 sides to every story and its interesting how most folks here are slating the guy when only 1 side of the story has been told.

Reading the article a few times there are things which don't add up logically, so looking at this from a third person perspective I've noticed the following:

1. First thing is it is alleged this guy had no ticket, this is a commuter town service, did he have a leap card, ergo no ticket required ? If so why was this not logged in report ?

2. "Boye was taken off the train" did this actually happen ? Do ticket inspectors have this kind of power or does it constitute assault ?

3. "Nine trains delayed for four hours by one abusive passenger." If a passenger managed to hold up 9 trains......9 trains for over 4 HOURS.....why was this not in the news back then ? Why weren't the boys in blue called within the first 10 minutes if this guys was so threatening and abusive ? Seems very strange to me that this claim was made with no proof to back it up, hell there i no record of this on Irish Rail twitter feed or elsewhere !!!

4. "The court heard there were 30 children on a school trip and Boye just wouldn't get off" the train." What school was this ? Where are their witness statements to corroborate the claims made against the passenger ? Why was there no uproar in local or national news about an affect school trip due to abusive passenger (fear and all that) ???

It seem to me there are a lot more than minor discrepancies with this story, clearly things don't add up in relation to the events and i would have to seriously question the racial remarks based on the current view that is given.

I would like to see the CCTV from the train and those stations on the day to get a better idea of what went on and in the age of smart phones and social media how come at such peak times there were no phone videos of these alleged incidents posted on facebook, twitter, whatsapp, youtube and so on ???

I will let you draw your own conclusions folks.

tell me do u have any interesting thoughts about 9/11 or the moon landings just asking now