Business, residential, agriculture- what about all 3?

summereire

Whilst I understand the need to have different regulations for different uses, including building codes, planning types and rates/property taxes, sometimes in the real world it's much messier than that in terms of mixed use.

If you want to build a property that you will live in, work from and meet clients in some of the rooms most of the time and some of the other rooms have meetings in occasionally, and also have office space there that people don't come in to what would be the appropriate planning types, building codes, rates/property tax etc?

Thank you!

Poor Uncle Tom

I think you are mixing up regulations with zonings.

Area zonings are in place to plan the overall development of a given area in a strategic, orderly way to fit harmoniously into the surroundings, to compliment other similar types of development in the given area, well that's the theory anyway.

Building Regulations are there to develop structures in a stable, safe, comfortable, usable and economic way, for the benefit of its users.

summereire

Thanks. If in a given zone a given building is being built for uses that are mixed, i.e. a mix of the commercial, residential and even agricultural as described above, my understanding were that there were different building regs depending on its use, and also different tax/rates issues.

Presumably on the planning form you just say that it will be used for all of the above and indicate that use of rooms will be mixed? Is it that the rooms that members of the public will enter for commercial reasons require commercial regs to be kept, in terms of fire signs etc? And for property tax and rates do you estimate uses and pay both or just one?

Poor Uncle Tom

Whether it's acceptable to actually have three separate uses within one building should be determined using the development plan for the area.

You should consult a professional about the division between agricultural and commercial, there is a serious blurring of the lines in this area.

Property tax and rates are a different issue.

summereire

Yeah we will, trying to get a sense of it first. The case in point is a farm house that is used for agricultural as well as residential and which is also a local doctor's clinic so rooms are used sometimes for one use sometimes for another.

Presuming such a thing is just all put on a single planning application form (is there a right or a wrong one?) and if approved then the various codes used are mixed, i.e. fire exit signage in some parts and not others, residential code only in parts of the building where patients or farm workers will never enter and commercial or agricultural standards, whatever is the higher, in mixed spaces?

Poor Uncle Tom

summereire wrote: »

....which is also a local doctor's clinic so rooms are used sometimes for one use sometimes for another.

The key here is how occasional the 'commercial' use would be. Could the area be classed as a home office? negating the need for any specific commercial designation. This is where your professional will earn their wages in guiding you on this issue.

summereire

That's what I'm looking for really, are there any established ways that this is handled? Like the term home-office- is there something I could look up on that or an established sense that if it's home-office and the use is partial or occasional then the requirements are different? I ask because this could be designed or done in different ways if it makes sense to do so.

Poor Uncle Tom

The notion of a 'home office' is usually to attempt to pigeon hole existing circumstances, example, the local vet always uses the room beside his utility room to deal with emergency calls but doesn't advertise it and has his clinic elsewhere, therefore he doesn't need a Fire Cert, DAC, or any part of his house is not deemed commercial.

However, where a building is being designed from the start with the intention of running a commercial enterprise from part of it, then the 'home office' scenario is not the one to shoe horn the proposed development into. It would only be seen as bending the rules to avoid the need for a FC, DAC, or to pay rates on a specific portion of a building.

Taking your example of a doctor using part of their house for consultancy purposes and doubling as living accommodation. This may not even be possible taking environmental health issues into account. When I mention 'home office' I mean a dedicated area used infrequently and occasionally for a specific uses, not necessarily having multiple uses.

summereire

Ok great, understanding that helps. So assuming that the planners are all right with the mixed use, it would be better to go the way of the fire cert etc but I presume the cost and work involved in doing this can be prohibitive? Only other thing I'm trying to understand then is can the relevant commercial requirements be partially applied to a building or is the whole mixed use building required to have fire escape signs, be built in a particular way, etc etc even though its not all used for commercial?

Gumbo

You need a professional on board from the start here in my opinion.
There are mixed uses such as live/work units here in Dublin, they need to comply with the Building Regulations either way.

You also have the requirements for fire safety certs and DAC's and Assigned Certifiers.

Poor Uncle Tom

summereire wrote: »

Only other thing I'm trying to understand then is can the relevant commercial requirements be partially applied to a building or is the whole mixed use building required to have fire escape signs, be built in a particular way, etc etc even though its not all used for commercial?

It's all down to design, the professional you would engage to prepare your FSC would advise on where specific elements of notification (alarms, signs, etc) should go. Generally the entire building would be judged for risk, but the parts used for commercial purposes, or routes for escape from those areas, would have the public alerts attached. There may also be requirements for additional requirements for any habitable parts of the building depending on the remaining commercial use.

You really need specific advice from a suitable professional in this regard.

summereire

Thanks- that helps a lot. Everything I looked up seemed to talk about one type of use or another but not mixed. If you happen to know of any other resources that address this that would be very much appreciated.

BryanF

Resource: local arch/ arch tech / eng / planning consultant

civdef

Fire wise, Note 1 of Table 0.1 of TGD-B gives good guidelines on home-offices or similar:

Residential purpose groups include any surgery, consulting rooms, office or other accommodation not exceeding
50 m2 in total, forming part of a dwelling and used by the occupant of the dwelling in a professional or business
capacity.

If it meets this definition you basically don't need a fire safety cert.

summereire

Thanks, that's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

Gumbo

summereire wrote: »

Thanks, that's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

You just have to be careful with regards the whole building as if that use is within a larger building it may still need a FSC.

for example look at the live/work units out in Belmayne, Dublin. They fall under that clause posted above by civdef but they require a FSC due to the risk from the larger building.

OP, please take guidance from an engaged professional, and not only from strangers on the Internet, including me.

summereire

Yes I will. I find it much easier to hire the right professional when you're versed in the regs to begin with.

Do you mean that even if a building is entirely residential (single occupancy) that it still may require require a fire cert if it has home office commercial use if it's a large building?

And just to summarise, the main requirements are building regs, fire cert, disability access? And for residential it's just building regs?

Gumbo

summereire wrote: »

Yes I will. I find it much easier to hire the right professional when you're versed in the regs to begin with.

Do you mean that even if a building is entirely residential (single occupancy) that it still may require require a fire cert if it has home office commercial use if it's a large building?

And just to summarise, the main requirements are building regs, fire cert, disability access? And for residential it's just building regs?

Don't forget that Residential also requires compliance wit Part B (Fire Safety) and Part M (Disability Access).

BryanF

summereire wrote: »

Yes I will. I find it much easier to hire the right professional when you're versed in the regs to begin with.

Do you mean that even if a building is entirely residential (single occupancy) that it still may require require a fire cert if it has home office commercial use if it's a large building?

And just to summarise, the main requirements are building regs, fire cert, disability access? And for residential it's just building regs?

Can you describe what you actual intend on building?

Gumbo

BryanF wrote: »

Can you describe what you actual intend on building?

+1

Never actually thought of asking what you plan on building as it varies so much we haven't actually given you any concrete advice yet.

BryanF

kceire wrote: »

+1

Never actually thought of asking what you plan on building as it varies so much we haven't actually given you any concrete advice yet.

You never get a straight answer from a Kerry man!

Gumbo

BryanF wrote: »

You never get a straight answer from a Kerry man!

Ask him has he seen Sam, Sam Maguire

summereire

Yes any particular guidance much appreciated, our options are open but we're in a rural area and want to build a home/office space for agricultural use/some meeting space for physical and other related therapy. We've been told that planning basically shouldn't be a big issue but are just trying to decide the best way to approach the design. All together in one building seems efficient as the commercial element won't be massive but if regs prove an issue that might tip the balance.

Angry bird

Home based economic activity. Once the main use is residential it may get planning. Check out your local councils policies re same.

summereire

Yeah from our enquires so far it all seems very positive, now we're trying to imagine how to do it, preferably in one building, hence the query about the regs. Another option if its a nightmare to use part of the house for it is to put a prefab next to the house, are the regs more relaxed for this, would that be easier?

Angry bird

May not get planning for that so check it out with council.

summereire

The planing side seems fine from our enquiries so far- you see houses with clinics and offices attached all over the place. It's the building regs I'm interested in though.

civdef

Ok, essentially if you are building a standalone house that you will live in, with a space <50sqm in it that you want to use in relation to your profession or business, then you won't need a fire safety cert as it's still considered a dwelling overall.

As was already pointed out, you still have to comply with the Building Regs themselves, the exemption is only in relation to getting fire fire cert (& DAC).

civdef

If you put the business stuff in a prefab - that will definitely need a fire cert.

summereire

Great, that helps a lot. And other than the fire cert requirements is there any difference to building regulations for residential or commercial buildings or are they the same?

Gumbo

summereire wrote: »

Great, that helps a lot. And other than the fire cert requirements is there any difference to building regulations for residential or commercial buildings or are they the same?

No they are not the same. Commercial building are designated a different class for fire risk. You really need to engage someone with experience to look at this for you tbh.

civdef

I'd agree with the above, unless you're used to this stuff, you can make very expensive mistakes trying to DIY it. But as you say, it's no harm to be aware of the rules in general when talking to consultants. (As an aside, I spend a lot of my time dealing with some consultants who have very little idea either! - so definitely be careful picking who you give your money to).

The building regulations in Ireland set out functional requirements and are actually quite straightforward - eg the fire section (Part fits on one page and says things like:

The external walls and roof of a building shall be so designed and constructed that they afford adequate resistance to the spread of fire to and from neighbouring buildings.

It's up to the applicant to convince the building control authority that what they're proposing is "adequate". This isn't always straightforward.

Link to the building regulations:
http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/BuildingStandards/#BldgRegs


To help applicants, the department publishes technical guidance documents, which set out statutorily defined acceptable ways of complying with the various parts (by no means the only way of complying, but usually the easiest. To quote the authors:

The Technical Documents, commonly known as TGD's give guidance on how to construct a building so that it complies with the Regulations. Where works are carried out in accordance with the TGDs, this will indicate compliance with the Regulations. The adoption of an approach different to the TGD's is not prohibited, provided that the approach meets the requirements of the Regulations.
The Building Control Authority may require such evidence in the case of an approach different from that given in the guidance to ensure that the building does comply with the regulations. Important to note that neither the Building Regulations or the TGDs promote the use of a particular product or method of construction - nor do they favour masonry construction over timber frame construction.

The fire requirements for most buildings (e.g. not shopping centres, hospitals etc) are set out here:
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1640,en.pdf

The whole lot of them are at:
http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/

summereire

Wonderful, thanks very much civdef- that's great. And yes, education is always a good thing to ensure you hire the right consultants.